The Surest Way to Get Rid of Illegal Serve Complaints

[Zwill]

the balls break too easily

I'm shocked that the few ball manufacturers didn't jump on it guns blazing😂
But it would be a bit of bad news for the seamless ball manufacturer.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'm shocked that the few ball manufacturers didn't jump on it guns blazing😂
But it would be a bit of bad news for the seamless ball manufacturer.

DHS already makes one of the best balls in the market, and the biggest ball producer out there.
if they decided to keep it a "training" ball only, I'm sure they have done enough due diligence on that.

 

[NetProphet]

I don't know about you guys, but I often grow tired of the ever present threads on reddit and other places "This serve is illegal!". Yes, we know just about every player out there is trying their best to almost hide the serve so sure. Some are going to get away with it sometimes in actually hiding it.

For that reason, and because there is no real way judges can actually be in a position to see what the returner's vision is, I for some time now have been a proponent of allowing hidden serves with one change in addition to that. Table tennis should be played with a two-toned ball.

Before I get into my pitch why I feel this way, Check out these matches from this YT channel I recently found where this person is uploading old professional table tennis matches from the US Open in 2002. It's kind fun to watch some of these anyways. This must have been just before the rule change because it happened in 2002 where they made it to where you couldn't hide the serve.

When you watch these, keep in the following in mind. 1 - They were playing with the 40mm celluloid ball. This ball was ever so slightly smaller (actually 39. something mm) and the celluloid ball spun better than the plastic balls of today do (which are actually 40. something mm). So the spin was higher. And most importantly, the ball was all white.

Despite those disadvantages, the table tennis product was still enjoyable to watch. Here are two matches featuring players where at least one, if not both, were hiding the serve.

Lau Sui Fei (HKG) v. Ryu Ji Hye (KOR) Quarterfinal at the 2002 US Open

and

Ma Lin (CHN) v. Fredrik Håkansson (SWE) at the 2002 US Open

So the idea of the two-toned ball is to give something back to the returner since we're giving the advantage back to the server with allowing the toss to be hidden. But the benefits go beyond just that.

Why a two-toned ball would be good for table tennis:
- A better TV product. WTT should look at it for this reason alone. The casual viewer does not understand the spin that is involved in the game. Sure they assume it's there but they cannot see it. They cannot know what type of spin is on the ball. Was that a backspin serve? Was it a float serve? Who knows. It's all white. Slow motion replays would make understanding this infinitely better as a TV product.
- When new players come to the sport, one big hurdle & frustration can be understanding what spin is on the ball and why are their shots doing X vs a spin the newer player doesn't fully grasp. This would help expedite their learning process.
- Because I'm purposing the allowing of hidden serves, this would at least give the receiver a better chance in picking up the spin on the ball in return. Professionals did it for years & years with a pure white ball.
- You'd never have to hear someone complain about a illegal hidden serve again because that'd be perfectly legal. that alone might make this whole thing worth it. (I kid)

A number of years ago the China Super League played a season with a DHS Two-toned ball. They could do something like that. I don't really know or have a preference in how marked up the ball is. Just something to help the returner of serve out would be the idea.

Here I have a picture of that DHS ball in case you've never seen it along with service balls I make to help me train my serve.

View attachment 36049

Thoughts?

We used to marker the ball in school so it looked like the 2nd ball in your picture there with two black quadrants and it was very easy to see the spin then. Not sure if it would be visible on TV but it was certainly visible to us as playes.
It would probably be visible in slower of up close replays though which may or may not be helpful.
I think the rule is clear and fair, the opponent has to be able to see the ball,no hiding, so I'm not sure if hiding it and using a ball like this would be better.
There are other deceptions beyond serve too where players have to judge spin and this is also a skill which a striped ball would maybe eliminate, a no spin loop comes to mind.
I do think it would look cool though!

 

[Zwill]

DHS already makes one of the best balls in the market, and the biggest ball producer out there.
if they decided to keep it a "training" ball only, I'm sure they have done enough due diligence on that.

I meant it as more balls breaking, more sales, more revenue💰💴💸

 

[Egon]

At first I was enthusiastic about your idea, but then I watched a video of a game with a two-color ball and I didn't like it - when watching at normal speed, the colors merge due to the rotation and the two-color ball becomes darker and therefore seems smaller than a regular white ball, and when watching a replay, a high-frequency color change appears, which is unpleasant for the eyes.

 

[NextLevel]

DHS already makes one of the best balls in the market, and the biggest ball producer out there.
if they decided to keep it a "training" ball only, I'm sure they have done enough due diligence on that.

2014 was the time when the balls were really bad though. I am sure they can make better balls now if they really want to. Won't solve the problem with the experience playing but it will be better durability for sure.

 

[igorponger]

BE ERUDITE OF EVERYTHING

Persistence of vision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hi, people
Keep in mind please human vision is very deceptive. It is now long time since ITTF gave up all the experiments with multi colour balls for having no desired effect.

Yes, drawing black graphics onto sphere still useful to make demostrative videos of the ball rotational effects in the sport.

 

[suds79]

This thread has kinda delved into two topics.

1 - the best TV product. There are many ways with technology they could do this. Tony pointed out the ESPN thing and I have seen that before. I think stats in how fast a player hits it, the RPMs would all be cool, useful information. It doesn't really do anything for the players in the moment but for the viewer, seems pretty good.

2 - The hiding service thing. I've long been of the mindset of "if they don't call it, it's legal." type of approach. Furthermore, I think it's up to the players to say something to the umpire if they have an issue with a serve. Timo did this not long ago. If one wanted to, they could make the case all day that X player's serve is illegal which is why I don't get into complaining about a particular player. Rather, I just wish the rules or umpires were different to where it wasn't an issue. It will never go away with things as they stand now where there's a rule and it's not called because umpires simply can't gauge it accurately.

So by the side of the table, an umpire cannot call it correctly. We get that. I've thought about in the past, they should be behind the table to better see the angle but as I think about it, that won't work either. The receiver could be blocking their view. Unless there are net cameras or something they're watching to monitor. IDK. This just feels like a messy situation which is why I've been in favor of just getting rid of the idea that you can't hide the serve.

I thought possibly a two-toned ball might help players as a trade off. Maybe it could but if it can't? Fine. Then keep the current ball single color. But allow hidden serves. We'll all adjust same as players did in the past.

Truth be told today's pros are so good at receiving serve BH flicking almost any serve, maybe it'd balance out the game some. IDK just thinking out loud now so I'll end it here.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

This thread has kinda delved into two topics.

1 - the best TV product. There are many ways with technology they could do this. Tony pointed out the ESPN thing and I have seen that before. I think stats in how fast a player hits it, the RPMs would all be cool, useful information. It doesn't really do anything for the players in the moment but for the viewer, seems pretty good.

truth is, most TV product is terrible at the moment
from commentator to zero resources.

 

[Zwill]

Maybe some organization could invest in making an AI that could replace umpires and judge serve legality in real time.

 

[Kenspin]

I don't know about you guys, but I often grow tired of the ever present threads on reddit and other places "This serve is illegal!". Yes, we know just about every player out there is trying their best to almost hide the serve so sure. Some are going to get away with it sometimes in actually hiding it.

For that reason, and because there is no real way judges can actually be in a position to see what the returner's vision is, I for some time now have been a proponent of allowing hidden serves with one change in addition to that. Table tennis should be played with a two-toned ball.

Before I get into my pitch why I feel this way, Check out these matches from this YT channel I recently found where this person is uploading old professional table tennis matches from the US Open in 2002. It's kind fun to watch some of these anyways. This must have been just before the rule change because it happened in 2002 where they made it to where you couldn't hide the serve.

When you watch these, keep in the following in mind. 1 - They were playing with the 40mm celluloid ball. This ball was ever so slightly smaller (actually 39. something mm) and the celluloid ball spun better than the plastic balls of today do (which are actually 40. something mm). So the spin was higher. And most importantly, the ball was all white.

Despite those disadvantages, the table tennis product was still enjoyable to watch. Here are two matches featuring players where at least one, if not both, were hiding the serve.

Lau Sui Fei (HKG) v. Ryu Ji Hye (KOR) Quarterfinal at the 2002 US Open

and

Ma Lin (CHN) v. Fredrik Håkansson (SWE) at the 2002 US Open

So the idea of the two-toned ball is to give something back to the returner since we're giving the advantage back to the server with allowing the toss to be hidden. But the benefits go beyond just that.

Why a two-toned ball would be good for table tennis:
- A better TV product. WTT should look at it for this reason alone. The casual viewer does not understand the spin that is involved in the game. Sure they assume it's there but they cannot see it. They cannot know what type of spin is on the ball. Was that a backspin serve? Was it a float serve? Who knows. It's all white. Slow motion replays would make understanding this infinitely better as a TV product.
- When new players come to the sport, one big hurdle & frustration can be understanding what spin is on the ball and why are their shots doing X vs a spin the newer player doesn't fully grasp. This would help expedite their learning process.
- Because I'm purposing the allowing of hidden serves, this would at least give the receiver a better chance in picking up the spin on the ball in return. Professionals did it for years & years with a pure white ball.
- You'd never have to hear someone complain about a illegal hidden serve again because that'd be perfectly legal. that alone might make this whole thing worth it. (I kid)

A number of years ago the China Super League played a season with a DHS Two-toned ball. They could do something like that. I don't really know or have a preference in how marked up the ball is. Just something to help the returner of serve out would be the idea.

Here I have a picture of that DHS ball in case you've never seen it along with service balls I make to help me train my serve.

View attachment 36049

Thoughts?

As someone whose game is based on deceiving opponents by disguising the spin in normal play, I am totally against any proposal that makes the spin easier to read.

 

[suds79]

As someone whose game is based on deceiving opponents by disguising the spin in normal play, I am totally against any proposal that makes the spin easier to read.

Hey I'm a lefty penholder so I too use placement & variety of spin on serves to give me an advantage but don't you think for bigger picture stuff one need to look past "how does this only effect me?". I think we can be bigger than that.

I'm just interested in allowing hidden serves because I don't it can be correctly reviewed by umpires so if they allow that with a solid color ball then, that's fine with me. That particular idea for you individually I'm sure would love.

But more so than how it effects me, I just think it'd be nice if we didn't have a hidden service rule being broken anymore in TT.

 

[TTFrenzy]

In my experience, unless the ball is barely spinning, the colors blend into one and it gives no advantage to the receiver.

yes it blends. but you can exactly see the rotation. So it is not an "advantage to the receiver" but a little help

You can easily spot a 50 % underspin 50 % sidespin serve that the server brushed the ball in the lower left/or right side of the ball. And when its 80 % underspin 20 % sidespin you can still see it, so you can change ur paddle angle accordingly

 

[Dr Evil]

yes it blends. but you can exactly see the rotation. So it is not an "advantage to the receiver" but a little help

You can easily spot a 50 % underspin 50 % sidespin serve that the server brushed the ball in the lower left/or right side of the ball. And when its 80 % underspin 20 % sidespin you can still see it, so you can change ur paddle angle accordingly

Not sure how that works if the colors blend into one. As some people mentioned, it does make dead balls a little more obvious than just the logo, but otherwise I've found it useless for helping with serve receive. Luckily, I still have a few white/orange DHS balls and will try them tomorrow against a coach with a really tricky serve. I remain skeptical, but will report back if I find it helps at all.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Maybe some organization could invest in making an AI that could replace umpires and judge serve legality in real time.

umpires using technology should be a starters, first
TTR, was like what, second event being used, and we in 2025 where cars can self drive.

I have always said, they (world/national federations) give too much power to umpires (who are volunteers, and below minimal wage if you were to considered the money received in return for the umpiring jobs) and give no resources, in return to decides the fates of professionals players.

umpires also do not go through vision tests, and even if they have airforce pilot vision, they do not have the luxury of multiple angles, to see everything.
And yet, they make calls that can change histories.
and why is there so little technology?

any idea on what umpires earns:

Each umpire will receive a daily allowance per competition day by LOC:
Gold Badge Umpires: 80 USD
Blue Badge Umpires: 80 USD
Blue Badge Umpires in Progress: 70 USD
White Badge Umpires: 70 USD
National Umpires: 50 USD
In case of a day off the LOC shall pay 50% of the daily allowance


now, divide that by hours of work per day...and we talking about the highest level of umpires in the world....
I know in some cases, like national events, the umpires get around 30 USD a day - for over 10 hours of work....

 

[suds79]

Not sure how that works if the colors blend into one. As some people mentioned, it does make dead balls a little more obvious than just the logo, but otherwise I've found it useless for helping with serve receive. Luckily, I still have a few white/orange DHS balls and will try them tomorrow against a coach with a really tricky serve. I remain skeptical, but will report back if I find it helps at all.

I'd be curious to hear a test of allowing your coach to hold up their arm & hide the ball. Hopefully he's good at that. One test with an all white ball. Then a two-toned ball. Based on that, report back if it helped you in the slightest.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'd be curious to hear a test of allowing your coach to hold up their arm & hide the ball. Hopefully he's good at that. One test with an all white ball. Then a two-toned ball. Based on that, report back if it helped you in the slightest.

I am interested to find how it would work for you.

when would you observe and read the two-toned ball's spin? at what process of the serve would you focus on the ball and decide your next course of action?

 

[suds79]

I am interested to find how it would work for you.

when would you observe and read the two-toned ball's spin? at what process of the serve would you focus on the ball and decide your next course of action?

So I've mainly used balls like these in my service practice. I use them to gauge if I'm getting the spin & amount of spin I was hoping for. They were particularly helpful on the reverse pendulum serve. At the time I found my side/backspin version after the two bounces were almost purely sidespin. So I made an adjustment.

Anyways, I don't envision that a returner would mid serve think "oh that's something completely different. Let me change my strategy". You'd still have to look at the motion, contact point, ball flight, basically everything a returner currently does. I think it'd be a split second mental assurance in the return would get.

It really needs tested out accurately among several people. Have someone hide the serve with a single color ball and then with a two-toned ball. Do they feel it helped at all.

This is hard to test because we all go to clubs and chances are the person we're practicing this with I'm guessing we already know their service game so the results would be skewed some.

It'd really take testing among several people to get a feel for it.

But like I said. If it was determined it doesn't help? Fine. But I'm still in favor for just allowing hidden serves. Even if the ball stays the same. I'm just tired of there being a rule that can't be enforced. So I'm flexible on this.
______________
Now I've used these balls outside of service for training and they're helpful. In an example would be a training partner who uses a thick sponge anti. Anti, as you might know, are not as popular as they use to be and LPs is more common. LPs typically reverse spin a lot but this anti tended to deaden the ball. Sometimes give ever so slightly reversal. Sometimes not. So in training I practiced serving to him pure back and/or pure top just to see how much reversal is there. The information I gained from these balls gives me full confidence to know what to do when we play normally. So a ball marked helps but that's not specifically in service return but you asked my experience so I thought I'd share that story.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Not sure how that works if the colors blend into one. As some people mentioned, it does make dead balls a little more obvious than just the logo, but otherwise I've found it useless for helping with serve receive. Luckily, I still have a few white/orange DHS balls and will try them tomorrow against a coach with a really tricky serve. I remain skeptical, but will report back if I find it helps at all.

They do blend and it is a physics effect described by no other by newton himself

As you can see for yourself all these colors blend into white if they are spinned fast enough

Watch carefully from 2:44 to 3:15

How did Newton split white light into a rainbow?

Newton saw that once the white sunlight had passed through the prism and had been refracted, it not only changed direction to shine onto the opposite wall, it also separated into a rainbow effect. He found that refracted white light turns into a spectrum of colours; red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.

The same effect happens when you spin a 2 colored ball , I have played with DHS half orange/half white ball and when it is spinned really fast , its color is still "orange" but a more light one, a tendency to be white.

Anyway, colored balls are definitely a good way to see the spin. In the 90's when the serves were hidden we were trying to spot the written stamp of the ball to read the spin, it was a good way to understand what kind of spin there is, because we couldnt see the contact point

p.s. if you dont try it and feel it, you wont understand what I am "talking about" . Forum is just a knowledge exchange place, the 2 colored ball definitely helps because u see the angle/axis of rotation better, even when the colors blend into one. So a white ball with 50-50 side and under spin, will be more difficult to judge compared to a 2 colored one.


Unfortunately i dont have a slow mo camera but you can see the video below to get my point

check 1:28, you can clearly see zhang jike's serve has pure sidespin, no top, no under. MAYBE it has a very light topspin rotation but it is so minimal that it does not pop up when dima pushes it back

 

[Dr Evil]

They do blend and it is a physics effect described by no other by newton himself

As you can see for yourself all these colors blend into white if they are spinned fast enough

Watch carefully from 2:44 to 3:15

How did Newton split white light into a rainbow?

Newton saw that once the white sunlight had passed through the prism and had been refracted, it not only changed direction to shine onto the opposite wall, it also separated into a rainbow effect. He found that refracted white light turns into a spectrum of colours; red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.

The same effect happens when you spin a 2 colored ball , I have played with DHS half orange/half white ball and when it is spinned really fast , its color is still "orange" but a more light one, a tendency to be white.

Anyway, colored balls are definitely a good way to see the spin. In the 90's when the serves were hidden we were trying to spot the written stamp of the ball to read the spin, it was a good way to understand what kind of spin there is, because we couldnt see the contact point

p.s. if you dont try it and feel it, you wont understand what I am "talking about" . Forum is just a knowledge exchange place, the 2 colored ball definitely helps because u see the angle/axis of rotation better, even when the colors blend into one. So a white ball with 50-50 side and under spin, will be more difficult to judge compared to a 2 colored one.


Unfortunately i dont have a slow mo camera but you can see the video below to get my point

check 1:28, you can clearly see zhang jike's serve has pure sidespin, no top, no under. MAYBE it has a very light topspin rotation but it is so minimal that it does not pop up when dima pushes it back

I get the colors blending (but I like the Newton's disk demo). What I don't get is how you're supposed to read spin from one uniform blended color. This was a rhetorical question (i.e., there's no extra information so you might as well be playing with an all white ball). But what if the ball is spinning slowly enough that the colors don't blend? In the extreme case of no spin at all, it's a clear advantage over an all white ball for the receiver; there would be hardly any deception possible with dead ball serves. What about slowly spinning serves where the colors don't completely blend? It seems to me -- based on experimenting a few days ago with my coach using DHS orange/white balls -- that there might be some extra information available to the receiver on some serves some of the time. It really has to be spinning quite slowly; but, if you could read those serves more easily, then it would remove some deception from the that part of the dynamic spin range of the server. So another possible advantage over all white balls for the receiver. As for the ZJK/Dima video, I'd need higher quality and slower slow motion.