Are 5-ply wood blades more flexible than 7-ply (inner) carbon blades?

[GregorTT425]

I have always wondered if 5-ply woods are better for spin and control kind of game? I'm pretty sure carbon blades are much faster and more powerful, but that is something I'm not really interested in.
For the past few months I've been playing with an innercarbon blade (Innerforce Layer ALC). It is really good, but recently I've changed my style from offensive to all-round and I'm looking for a new blade that would suit my needs.

My questions is, would the 5-ply wood blade provide more flex (thus more spin) and more control than an 7-ply innercarbon blade? Also, what about the feel (would it vibrate)? Would have a softer feeling? I'm particularly thinking about the Stiga Cybershape Wood. Any opinions or experiences?

Thanks.

 

[P1ngP0ng3r]

Most 5 ply wood blade will provide more flex indeed. The ALC layer makes an inner-type blade stiffer.
For topspin, 5ply wood is great as it has more flex, but an inner-type blade provides a larger sweet spot.
When you are used to blades with ALC, a 5 ply wood might feel a bit uncontrolled for short play in the beginning.

Having said that, there are different types of 5ply wood blades and inner-type blades as well. For example: Harimoto ALC or Ovtcharov ALC feels very different compared to Synteliac VCI and Infinity VPS feels different compared to Novacell Off.
If you are interested in Cybershape Wood, make sure you check out TT Gear Lab. His research is not like a typical review, as he approaches equipment more scientific. He also compares the feeling of the CS Wood with the IF Layer ALC. Link: https://ttgearlab.com/2023/04/04/stiga-cybershape-series-lab-test/

 

[GregorTT425]

Most 5 ply wood blade will provide more flex indeed. The ALC layer makes an inner-type blade stiffer.
For topspin, 5ply wood is great as it has more flex, but an inner-type blade provides a larger sweet spot.
When you are used to blades with ALC, a 5 ply wood might feel a bit uncontrolled for short play in the beginning.

Having said that, there are different types of 5ply wood blades and inner-type blades as well. For example: Harimoto ALC or Ovtcharov ALC feels very different compared to Synteliac VCI and Infinity VPS feels different compared to Novacell Off.
If you are interested in Cybershape Wood, make sure you check out TT Gear Lab. His research is not like a typical review, as he approaches equipment more scientific. He also compares the feeling of the CS Wood with the IF Layer ALC. Link: https://ttgearlab.com/2023/04/04/stiga-cybershape-series-lab-test/

Thanks for answering, P1ngP0ng3r!

Just what I was thinking, thank you for confirming! Also, thank you for sharing this great review with me! I was searching for reviews but only found the TTDaily's one.

Anyone else to have a word here?

 

[lodro]

Thanks for answering, P1ngP0ng3r!

Just what I was thinking, thank you for confirming! Also, thank you for sharing this great review with me! I was searching for reviews but only found the TTDaily's one.

Anyone else to have a word here?

Not much to say other than yes, generally what has been said about the 5 ply woods is correct,
however if we look closer then we will find for example 7 ply woods that can be bend into a pretzel and 5 ply s that are as stiff as any inner carbo/kev blade.

Maybe a talk to one of the blade-makers would help.
I am sure Hypnotic from SDC would be happy to explain the laminates, veneers and their
properties to you and might be able to make exactly what you want.

 

[Haito]

Across my EJ journey If I learned anything, I learned that thickness and wood selection matter. I played with stiff thiccccccc 5 plies and thin flexible 7 plies.

TBH. I would keep Innerforce. It's fine blade. If anything Baracuda does not scream control and all round. If you play in a club I would start by asking around if anyone has some used rubbers and testing them. Maybe try G1 or something like that.

 

[NextLevel]

5 ply woods are slower and more flexible holding all things constant. The thing is to get a 5 ply wood as fast or stiff as a composite, you need a much harder outer ply or a much thicker inner ply/total blade, depending on the blade composition. Most composite blades are thinner which feels better for looping, and because the composite is faster, you get a reasonable trade off in head size and weight if you can use the composite. To be honest a 5+2 should be more realistically compared to a 7 ply, and a 5 ply to a 3+2. Just about all the popular 3+2 blades are stiff Hinoki outer blades. A Schlager Carbon/Garaydia T5000 or even an Amultart/Garaydia ZLC/Nobilis can match a Hinoki 1-ply in stiffness without being anything close to as thick.

But you can measure the blade frequencies yourself and see this or look at the chart provided at the blade frequencies comparison chart. The Mazunov is probably the thickest regular looping 5 ply at maybe 1400 to 1500hz. The innerforce blades are easily in the same range and I would suspect that the Harimoto SZLC would be significantly higher.

 

[OldUser]

Butterfly Maze Advance (ex Performance) probably the best 5 ply all wood for AR+ to OFF game. With indeed a thick core, anyways it's 6.7 mm thick overhall.

 

[Haito]

Classic 5-ply wood blades [Comparison by Lab Test]

Table of Contents1. Introduction 2. Comparison by Performance Indices……. 2-1. Elasticity Indices……. 2-2. Vibration Indices3. Summary [Update on 13th October 2023] The values…

ttgearlab.com

Butterfly InnerForce Layer ALC – Overview & Lab Test

1. Introduction ‘InnerForce Layer ALC’ is one of the most important blades in current Butterfly blade range. It is softer and slower than ‘InnerForce Layer ZLC’ in the…

ttgearlab.com

Performance indices : the way to evaluate blade by measurement

1. The reason why the evaluation by measurement is needed There are so many blades in the market, and it is always very difficult for us to select proper ones. We sometimes just select famous blade…

ttgearlab.com

I compiled a bunch of numbers from TT Gearlab between Innerforce ALC and some 5 plies. I also linked an article about how he measures stuff. Based on the 3rd linked article, I assumed that Primary Deflection (ep) is how flexible blade is.

 

[Haito]

From my experience stepping down to a light thin (sub 6mm) 7 ply blade is a very nice solution. There must be a reason why Victas/TSP swat is king of sales in Japan I switched to Tibhar Curious a long while ago. For now I am staying with it.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I have always wondered if 5-ply woods are better for spin and control kind of game? I'm pretty sure carbon blades are much faster and more powerful, but that is something I'm not really interested in.
For the past few months I've been playing with an innercarbon blade (Innerforce Layer ALC). It is really good, but recently I've changed my style from offensive to all-round and I'm looking for a new blade that would suit my needs.

My questions is, would the 5-ply wood blade provide more flex (thus more spin) and more control than an 7-ply innercarbon blade? Also, what about the feel (would it vibrate)? Would have a softer feeling? I'm particularly thinking about the Stiga Cybershape Wood. Any opinions or experiences?

Thanks.

Answer is yes. Now go train.

20 FH strokes and 20 BH strokes without stopping hurrah!

 

[Haito]

Answer is yes. Now go train.

20 FH strokes and 20 BH strokes without stopping hurrah!

 

[Wrighty67]

5 ply woods are slower and more flexible holding all things constant. The thing is to get a 5 ply wood as fast or stiff as a composite, you need a much harder outer ply or a much thicker inner ply/total blade, depending on the blade composition. Most composite blades are thinner which feels better for looping, and because the composite is faster, you get a reasonable trade off in head size and weight if you can use the composite. To be honest a 5+2 should be more realistically compared to a 7 ply, and a 5 ply to a 3+2. Just about all the popular 3+2 blades are stiff Hinoki outer blades. A Schlager Carbon/Garaydia T5000 or even an Amultart/Garaydia ZLC/Nobilis can match a Hinoki 1-ply in stiffness without being anything close to as thick.

But you can measure the blade frequencies yourself and see this or look at the chart provided at the blade frequencies comparison chart. The Mazunov is probably the thickest regular looping 5 ply at maybe 1400 to 1500hz. The innerforce blades are easily in the same range and I would suspect that the Harimoto SZLC would be significantly higher.

I have two Mazunov (both 99g) and one is 1500 and the other 1470hz. My innerforce layer ALC are 1380 and 1430 88-90g)

 

[NextLevel]

I have two Mazunov (both 99g) and one is 1500 and the other 1470hz. My innerforce layer ALC are 1380 and 1430 88-90g)

Then those Mazunovs are stiffer than those blades. But there are Mazunovs below that range and Innerforce blades above that range as well. The tradeoff in weight and thickness speaks for itself.

 

[Brs]

Yes, but more flexible doesn't always equal more control. It will be slower than an average outer carbon blade, and both slower and less catapulty than inner carbon. If you respond to the relative slowness by trying to muscle the ball you may get less control, at least until you adjust your mind to the new bat.

Personally if I wanted a big-brand, five ply, 5.9mm thick, with limba outer, I'd buy a Korbel for ~ $90 less. But I'm sure the Cybershape wood is a fine blade too.

 

[GregorTT425]

Thanks everyone who had anything constructive to say and not only "go train"!

 

[Haito]

Thanks everyone who had anything constructive to say and not only "go train"!

I don't want to be mean, toxic or any other negative thing. But that is the greatest and most constructive advice you can get in world of table tennis. That being said. Instead of "go train" one should "go evaluate your own weaknesses, train to minimise them, repeat".

Quality coaching has proven 10x more valuable than any rubber/blade. I might sound like a broken record, but finding a person who is a good teacher (not necessarily, a good player) is the key to improvement.

From my experience the best setup is one that you can consistently make scream while generating spin

 

[lodro]

I don't want to be mean, toxic or any other negative thing. But that is the greatest and most constructive advice you can get in world of table tennis. That being said. Instead of "go train" one should "go evaluate your own weaknesses, train to minimise them, repeat".

Quality coaching has proven 10x more valuable than any rubber/blade. I might sound like a broken record, but finding a person who is a good teacher (not necessarily, a good player) is the key to improvement.

From my experience the best setup is one that you can consistently make scream while generating spin

It is of course so much off-topic that it is topical again 🤣 but I support this 100%

In my "search" for the perfect blade (EJ of course) I did buy and play with the BTY innerforce ALC and also with a blade from Hypnotic both great tools. I am now (for a laugh) playing with a
BOER -Lion Allround blade 5+2 carbon because for about US$2.25 I wanted to find out if it is a complete load of crap ...............it is not, and with two H3 on it in my hands it does pretty much everything that the good blades did.
Conclusion : get a coach and train

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Thanks everyone who had anything constructive to say and not only "go train"!

He who knows smile at this whereas he who doesn't sulks at this. He who sees things as they clearly are, much happiness he begets.

 

[GregorTT425]

I don't want to be mean, toxic or any other negative thing. But that is the greatest and most constructive advice you can get in world of table tennis. That being said. Instead of "go train" one should "go evaluate your own weaknesses, train to minimise them, repeat".

Quality coaching has proven 10x more valuable than any rubber/blade. I might sound like a broken record, but finding a person who is a good teacher (not necessarily, a good player) is the key to improvement.

From my experience the best setup is one that you can consistently make scream while generating spin

Might be an advice to train more. Believe me, I train as much as I can (more exactly as much as my club and my time allows me), but only be training and not getting the right setup can be a waste of time in long-term. I've heard about players who were training and training and could not make significant process. And why? Because they didn't have the right blade/rubber, but mostly the blade.
I know the more I train the higher chances I have to be better, but first I need my most appropriate setup. Unfortunately, for that purpose, I have to be an EJ. I just cannot accept a blade and get used to it if that is not suitable. The championships have just ended for me, so it is the best time to do some testing.

 

[GregorTT425]

He who knows smile at this whereas he who doesn't sulks at this. He who sees things as they clearly are, much happiness he begets.

Sure. Thanks for the "training" advice though. Might be unbelieveable, but I indeed train (as much as I can) I'll do my best, but first I need my setup. I'm going through some style changes at the moment and my current blade might not be suitable for the new purposes.