At What Point is an Upgrade from D09c to Z03 Justified on BH?

[NDH]

Tyce choose your own poison: speed or spin?

The trend is now speed over spin.

I'll add something to this.

The trend is the modern *professional* game is speed over spin (or at least, as much speed as you can get!)

However, I may be in the minority here, but I think for *most* people.... Spin over speed is 100% the way to go if you want to improve, win more matches and go up the rankings.

I play D09C on both sides.

I've tried Zyre - It's fast, and when you are feeling like Ma Long, you can hit some YouTube worthy shots.

But..... It's just too fast for the majority of people I think. For me, it would be a step down.

Although I'm still tempted to really try it for a season......

 

[NextLevel]

I'll add something to this.

The trend is the modern *professional* game is speed over spin (or at least, as much speed as you can get!)

However, I may be in the minority here, but I think for *most* people.... Spin over speed is 100% the way to go if you want to improve, win more matches and go up the rankings.

I play D09C on both sides.

I've tried Zyre - It's fast, and when you are feeling like Ma Long, you can hit some YouTube worthy shots.

But..... It's just too fast for the majority of people I think. For me, it would be a step down.

Although I'm still tempted to really try it for a season......

Zyre is both the fastest and the spinniest rubber in the Butterfly line up. When someone uses something like D09c and like it, D09c creates a feeling of safety that is hard to beat when you put in effort. But there is also a speed loss and a spin loss that comes with that speed loss on *some* shots and that is the effort you need to use to overcome it.

Zyre for someone who uses D09c or sometimes even D05, requires some adjustment. You initially think it lacks spin because you are trying to generate spin with it using the same topsheet approach as D09c or D05, But there are always shots you hit with it in the first 1 or two days of using it that show you what the rubber's potential is when the ball enters the sponge. The serves are faster and spinnier with smaller motions (so people who do reverse serves for example will fall in love with what they get from Zyre from far less effort). The challenge with Zyre is that if you have a certain approach to safety from using Dignics or other rubbers with thicker topsheets, it is hard to feel equally safe with Zyre on those shots, at least at first, because you need to feel the ball in the sponge more because the topsheet is so thin. But often with some practice, you get there and then you can use a reasonable blade (sometimes slightly slower than you use) to make up the difference.

Many people will prefer Zyre on whatever side of their paddle they don't generate relative power on. The spin and speed it creates when you get the timing right is phenomenal. With practice, some people want to recreate the same feeling on both sides of their paddle. But some people just don't like driving without a seatbelt and want to use D09c or even D05 and generate most of the effort themselves.

But when someone says a rubber/blade is too fast for the majority of people... while this might be true, it is often besides the point. A rubber/blade can be relatively too fast for how you should play and still enable you to play your style effectively. I have seen many players play great table tennis with blades that are too *fast* for their playing level, the thing is that everything in TT is adaptation and tradeoffs. If you train with Zyre, you might be able to beat players you couldn't beat before. For players who use slower blades like all wood etc, they might be surprised by what Zyre gives them both on offense and defense.

I will finish with this: it is not a rubber you can judge fairly without extensive playing experience with it. Some people just feel it is right immediately, but most people who like D09c or D05 go through adjustment periods, especially on generating slow heavy topspin.

 

[NDH]

Zyre is both the fastest and the spinniest rubber in the Butterfly line up. When someone uses something like D09c and like it, D09c creates a feeling of safety that is hard to beat when you put in effort. But there is also a speed loss and a spin loss that comes with that speed loss on *some* shots and that is the effort you need to use to overcome it.

Zyre for someone who uses D09c or sometimes even D05, requires some adjustment. You initially think it lacks spin because you are trying to generate spin with it using the same topsheet approach as D09c or D05, But there are always shots you hit with it in the first 1 or two days of using it that show you what the rubber's potential is when the ball enters the sponge. The serves are faster and spinnier with smaller motions (so people who do reverse serves for example will fall in love with what they get from Zyre from far less effort). The challenge with Zyre is that if you have a certain approach to safety from using Dignics or other rubbers with thicker topsheets, it is hard to feel equally safe with Zyre on those shots, at least at first, because you need to feel the ball in the sponge more because the topsheet is so thin. But often with some practice, you get there and then you can use a reasonable blade (sometimes slightly slower than you use) to make up the difference.

Many people will prefer Zyre on whatever side of their paddle they don't generate relative power on. The spin and speed it creates when you get the timing right is phenomenal. With practice, some people want to recreate the same feeling on both sides of their paddle. But some people just don't like driving without a seatbelt and want to use D09c or even D05 and generate most of the effort themselves.

But when someone says a rubber/blade is too fast for the majority of people... while this might be true, it is often besides the point. A rubber/blade can be relatively too fast for how you should play and still enable you to play your style effectively. I have seen many players play great table tennis with blades that are too *fast* for their playing level, the thing is that everything in TT is adaptation and tradeoffs. If you train with Zyre, you might be able to beat players you couldn't beat before. For players who use slower blades like all wood etc, they might be surprised by what Zyre gives them both on offense and defense.

I will finish with this: it is not a rubber you can judge fairly without extensive playing experience with it. Some people just feel it is right immediately, but most people who like D09c or D05 go through adjustment periods, especially on generating slow heavy topspin.

There are so many caveats with this topic.

Adaption - Yes, people will adapt.

However, the sheer speed of Z03 is just fundamentally detrimental to the development of *most* people. And by *most* people, I mean when I look around the halls of where I play, and think of the average player who doesn't have coaching, may never look at an internet forum, will never really improve dramatically.... They just enjoy playing.

*Most* people don't have the technique or arm speed to get the most out of the top end rubbers - Be that D09c, Z03 or something else. It doesn't stop them from playing with it (and at times, perhaps playing well), but the limitations are with the ability and technique of the player - Not the rubber.

I guess it comes down to, who would I recommend Z03 to? The answer is virtually no one.

I would bet a huge amount of money that *most* amateurs playing with Z03 would benefit from a slower rubber.

But that's just my opinion - I'm looking forward to 30 people rocking up with Z03 next week in Dusseldorf and proving me wrong! 😂

 

[merlin el mago]

I'll add something to this.

The trend is the modern *professional* game is speed over spin (or at least, as much speed as you can get!)

However, I may be in the minority here, but I think for *most* people.... Spin over speed is 100% the way to go if you want to improve, win more matches and go up the rankings.

I play D09C on both sides.

I've tried Zyre - It's fast, and when you are feeling like Ma Long, you can hit some YouTube worthy shots.

But..... It's just too fast for the majority of people I think. For me, it would be a step down.

Although I'm still tempted to really try it for a season......

My advice is don't try.

 

[NextLevel]

There are so many caveats with this topic.

Adaption - Yes, people will adapt.

However, the sheer speed of Z03 is just fundamentally detrimental to the development of *most* people. And by *most* people, I mean when I look around the halls of where I play, and think of the average player who doesn't have coaching, may never look at an internet forum, will never really improve dramatically.... They just enjoy playing.

*Most* people don't have the technique or arm speed to get the most out of the top end rubbers - Be that D09c, Z03 or something else. It doesn't stop them from playing with it (and at times, perhaps playing well), but the limitations are with the ability and technique of the player - Not the rubber.

I guess it comes down to, who would I recommend Z03 to? The answer is virtually no one.

I would bet a huge amount of money that *most* amateurs playing with Z03 would benefit from a slower rubber.

But that's just my opinion - I'm looking forward to 30 people rocking up with Z03 next week in Dusseldorf and proving me wrong! 😂

Sometimes, I wonder whether the absence of a global rating TTR system is detrimental to people. That said...

Your opinion is broadly applicable to all Butterfly rubbers and most top end rubbers as a suitability issue with respect to level of player and price vs performance. The problem is that when you frame it the context of Z03, you make Z03 sound like a special animal - I am generally speaking to players who play a lot of table tennis , mostly USATT 1600+ (top 35%), but sometimes even experienced players who know their playing style who are lower rated - having said that...

Z03 is more durable than any other Butterfly rubber - that is where the pricing premium comes from more than its performance. If you play extensively, you will get more performance and playing time out of it. That counts for something, and when you frame the price as a performance issue, you are partly missing the point. And if an amateur can use a rubber for a year as a opposed to a cheaper rubber for 3 months, that must count for something no?

So who would I recommend Z03 to? Anyone who is willing to give it a few months of burn and then decide whether it is worth it or not, the price is about durability vs Dignics. Same risks and upsides as any rubber. And it will preserve more value used than any other rubber. I think most amateurs using Z03 would only get benefit from another rubber if they had aspects of their playing style that were specifically hurt by Z03 with extensive playing time. But these are nuanced issues, unfortunately, experts on equipment like to frame them as broad "this is too fast or slow for you" recommendations. I saw a player trash Z03 when I used it (because I didn't beat him with it), got crushed by another player who used it, switched to it on his forehand in 2.5mm and fell in love with it (he kept D09c on his backhand because he finds it easier to open with it. Opinions have many sources including hard data.

 

[merlin el mago]

Well if you are coming from sticky rubbers like D09C or classical Chinese the adaption will require more time, that's truth. But when you come from MX-P the adaption will require less time, also if the blade are more or less flex & more or less speed all matters.

 

[Haito]

Zyre 03 felt like impossible to wield weapon. I played it on 5ply and I could not brush through it... I am used to 40-41 deg Hurricane I can loop drive ok with it, But Zyre is way way to fast for it. I can get decent spin from it... No doubt about it. But its really hard for me to put power down. I had better results with any other rubber getting faster and spinnier balls. I play a lot... I saw people using it for slow and spinny shots and then getting any power related shot off the table (too long). I am curious if there are amateur players who can actually benefit from it.

 

[just_one_more_chop]

In my humble opinion, most amateur or average player (me included) dont NEED high end blades or rubbers. The level I play and compete at would not change much whether I used a cheap setup or a really expensive high quality one. For me it is pure curiosity that makes me want to try many styles, blades and rubbers. Do I use the full potential of my equipment? Surely not. Do I enjoy a few moments of play each training or tournament where the extra quality enables me to do something more exciting in a rally? Absolutely.
I only used Zyre03 and D09C for about 2 weeks now. It might not improve my overall level, but it enables me to try things I did not even thought about before. I am sure that if an average player is willing to adapt and practice he is able to play almost the same quality overall no matter the setup. Of cause on more professionel levels that changes, but until than players should play what brings them the most joy in my opinion. So apart from brutal beginners, where I would recommend something easy to play with, I would not hesitate to recommend even Zyre03. These expensive rubbers should be tested or bought second hand if its only to try though.

 

[merlin el mago]

IMHO isn't a rubber for amateur players.

 

[Archosaurus]

I feel like if slower and less performant equipment was actually ideal for amateur performance, people would win more with FX, Sriver and Mark V than with Tenergy, Dignics and Zyre.

The forums will swear that it is so, but not in my experience.

Fiber blades also make everyone's shots just outright more dangerous to deal with in my experience.

 

[NextLevel]

I feel like if slower and less performant equipment was actually ideal for amateur performance, people would win more with FX, Sriver and Mark V than with Tenergy, Dignics and Zyre.

The forums will swear that it is so, but not in my experience.

Fiber blades also make everyone's shots just outright more dangerous to deal with in my experience.

Yes, there is always a tradeoff between speed and control. People often focus on and overvalue the kind of absolute control that comes with lots of training and think about how lower rated players can get that and undervalue the kind of one shot power or two shot power that can come with using a more powerful rubber and blade or even the relaxed blocks. It's a much more nuanced topic than the way it is often framed. IF people see a player playing badly with fast equipment, they blame the equipment, not the technique. But if they see the player playing badly with slow equipment they blame the technique not the equipment. The biases often influence the narrative.

 

[kindof99]

Sometimes, I wonder whether the absence of a global rating TTR system is detrimental to people. That said...

Your opinion is broadly applicable to all Butterfly rubbers and most top end rubbers as a suitability issue with respect to level of player and price vs performance. The problem is that when you frame it the context of Z03, you make Z03 sound like a special animal - I am generally speaking to players who play a lot of table tennis , mostly USATT 1600+ (top 35%), but sometimes even experienced players who know their playing style who are lower rated - having said that...

Z03 is more durable than any other Butterfly rubber - that is where the pricing premium comes from more than its performance. If you play extensively, you will get more performance and playing time out of it. That counts for something, and when you frame the price as a performance issue, you are partly missing the point. And if an amateur can use a rubber for a year as a opposed to a cheaper rubber for 3 months, that must count for something no?

So who would I recommend Z03 to? Anyone who is willing to give it a few months of burn and then decide whether it is worth it or not, the price is about durability vs Dignics. Same risks and upsides as any rubber. And it will preserve more value used than any other rubber. I think most amateurs using Z03 would only get benefit from another rubber if they had aspects of their playing style that were specifically hurt by Z03 with extensive playing time. But these are nuanced issues, unfortunately, experts on equipment like to frame them as broad "this is too fast or slow for you" recommendations. I saw a player trash Z03 when I used it (because I didn't beat him with it), got crushed by another player who used it, switched to it on his forehand in 2.5mm and fell in love with it (he kept D09c on his backhand because he finds it easier to open with it. Opinions have many sources including hard data.

The problem is no one would spend several months trying a new rubber. I feel z03 is for you or not for you, from the first try. It’s not about the speed, it is about how you play table tennis. You can adjust to z03 only if you’re willing to adjust your technique, sometimes in a big way.

 

[kindof99]

Sometimes, I wonder whether the absence of a global rating TTR system is detrimental to people. That said...

Your opinion is broadly applicable to all Butterfly rubbers and most top end rubbers as a suitability issue with respect to level of player and price vs performance. The problem is that when you frame it the context of Z03, you make Z03 sound like a special animal - I am generally speaking to players who play a lot of table tennis , mostly USATT 1600+ (top 35%), but sometimes even experienced players who know their playing style who are lower rated - having said that...

Z03 is more durable than any other Butterfly rubber - that is where the pricing premium comes from more than its performance. If you play extensively, you will get more performance and playing time out of it. That counts for something, and when you frame the price as a performance issue, you are partly missing the point. And if an amateur can use a rubber for a year as a opposed to a cheaper rubber for 3 months, that must count for something no?

So who would I recommend Z03 to? Anyone who is willing to give it a few months of burn and then decide whether it is worth it or not, the price is about durability vs Dignics. Same risks and upsides as any rubber. And it will preserve more value used than any other rubber. I think most amateurs using Z03 would only get benefit from another rubber if they had aspects of their playing style that were specifically hurt by Z03 with extensive playing time. But these are nuanced issues, unfortunately, experts on equipment like to frame them as broad "this is too fast or slow for you" recommendations. I saw a player trash Z03 when I used it (because I didn't beat him with it), got crushed by another player who used it, switched to it on his forehand in 2.5mm and fell in love with it (he kept D09c on his backhand because he finds it easier to open with it. Opinions have many sources including hard data.

The problem is no one would spend several months trying a new rubber. I feel z03 is for you or not for you, from the first try. It’s not about the speed, it is about how you play table tennis. You can adjust to z03 only if you’re willing to adjust your technique, sometimes in a big way.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

The problem is no one would spend several months trying a new rubber.

Why not? It lasts several months and is a premium rubber. At the least, within a few weeks you should start to see whether the potential suits you or not.

 

[merlin el mago]

If you don't play sanctioned tournaments quickly why not, I will start competition at the end of this month.

 

[Lazer]

I feel like if slower and less performant equipment was actually ideal for amateur performance, people would win more with FX, Sriver and Mark V than with Tenergy, Dignics and Zyre.

The forums will swear that it is so, but not in my experience.

Fiber blades also make everyone's shots just outright more dangerous to deal with in my experience.

Yes… If they can keep the shots on the table…

Cheers
L-zr