Basic advice on knowing spin from long pips?

[Michael Zhuang]

Recently a few long pips players have showed up, and I mostly don't understand what spin to expect from their long pips rubber. Can somebody tell me the basic advice for knowing the spin?

So far, I have deduced that whenever I loop heavy spin to their long pips, it seems to always come back heavy underspin.

If I just topspin drive to their long pips, it seems to come back a dead-ball or maybe light underspin. What other basic essential patterns should be known?

If I push underspin to their pips, they push with their long pips, what spin would it come back to me as?

Does the type of stroke they use on their long pips change the spin of the ball? or is the spin mostly dependent on the incoming spin? Because I notice that a lot of times even if they use a push stroke, it looks like it should be underspin but it ends up being topspin or no-spin. So I often feel confused.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It sounds like you figured out the simplest basics.

Follow the link from NextLevel's post from the Video Footage Safe Thread. I am quoting the post below:

Greg Letts has great articles on learning to play against long pips.

https://gregsttpages.com/archives/equipment/rubbers/how-long-pips-really-work/

Relative to our playing levels, DerEchte and myself are pretty decent, DerEchte because of his heavy spin, me because I trained in Philly where there were lots of good long pips players. It is good to serve topspin and backspin to the pips and train yourself to play the next ball as you should, use the sound of the pips contact to distinguish between it kills spin and when it lets it pass through, and just learn to look at the ball. Even if you still suck after playing for a month, your level of suck will at least be tolerable..

 

[chimyshark]

I'm pretty good at playing against pips at the lower level and rather than complicate things, I break it down to simples rules. Suppose we're pushing back and forth - if I see pips twice in a row, I just whip it. If it comes back, then I do the safe thing and just push backspin. Make sure you know which color is which!

 

[Der_Echte]

Friction Long Pips can kill a lot of spin too, so they do not automatically return spin to you in the same amount you gave or a certain proportion. The way they impact the ball, the rubber, the angle, the grip, the force applied all affect the rebound and spin.

A certain stroke and impact can add a little spin.I goofed off in Korea with both sponged and OX LPs... and with a sponged LP, I could "loop" a ball from mid distance with enough topspin to have a lower level player block that ball long. Sure, it had maybe 1/4 of what I normally put on the ball with inverted, but I made enough spin to arc the ball over the net and get the Div 5 player to block it long and out.

There are a number of things to understand... a good pips player can also disguise the direction they are hitting/bumping/rubbing... when they come across the ball close to the table and take it off the bounce.There is no single set way the pips act. When someone writes an article, they over simplify it.

ne has to understand the rubber, the player, what is possible, listen to the impact, watch the impact, watch the ball. It takes some understanding of impacts, the rubber, some players' preferred style, and some hard-earned experience to get to where you can instinctively play vs many of them...

... and even then you run into some LP players with some twists you still need to adjust to. I say this as someone who plays vs pips players a lot better than players my level.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

It sounds like you figured out the simplest basics.

Follow the link from NextLevel's post from the Video Footage Safe Thread. I am quoting the post below:

I read the article, and I think I understand the basic concept. I don't know how to predict the amount of spin though, even though I think it somewhat understand the direction of the spin.

But just as a strategy, if I serve underspin to opponent's pips and he pushes back, then the ball will basically be a topspin ball, right? Then I could just drive or smash the 3rd ball. Wouldn't this be pretty easy to win points this way?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I read the article, and I think I understand the basic concept. I don't know how to predict the amount of spin though, even though I think it somewhat understand the direction of the spin.

But just as a strategy, if I serve underspin to opponent's pips and he pushes back, then the ball will basically be a topspin ball, right? Then I could just drive or smash the 3rd ball. Wouldn't this be pretty easy to win points this way?

In the video safe thread, read some of the posts from Der, and the post from Brs. They give different info and it is all useful. In the end you have to play LP enough to find what works for you. But they have some really good basic iinfo. Also, what NextLevel says above about listening to the contact, for how much spin is really valuable.

It is also worth really trying to watch the ball. This you may even "practice" by watching a good LP player play several matches and try and figure out which balls are heavy, which are light, which balls are backspin, topspin, dead......If you practice watching and seeing the spin on the ball when you are not under pressure to return the ball, you start being able to see the ball, the arc of the ball, and how much spin is on the ball just by looking at the ball.

A ball that is loaded with backspin, if you are really watching, looks totally different than medium, light or dead. The better you are at the skill of looking at the ball, the more you will see. But if you are not already doing this, it may take some work trying, to start realizing you can see much more than you realize.

When you play a player who has smooth rubber on both sides and you know what spin he puts on the ball with each shot just by what his racket does, it is interesting how you can take a lot for granted and not look or see what the ball looks like during its flight path and its bounce. Your brain just puts things together while you are kind of being lazy. But it does those calculations inaccurately with a racket like LP unless you train yourself to really watch the ball too. And to listen to the sound and depth the contact.

 

[Fluff]

But just as a strategy, if I serve underspin to opponent's pips and he pushes back, then the ball will basically be a topspin ball, right? Then I could just drive or smash the 3rd ball. Wouldn't this be pretty easy to win points this way?

It's generally discouraged to serve backspin to the long pips. By giving them a backspin ball you'll get a floaty ball back which can cause you to make an error if you judge the spin or trajectory wrong.
The general advice you'll get is to serve fast long to the pips forcing the pips player to chop (especially againt spongeless since they can't make an agressive return) so you can loop the 3rd ball. You can also serve a dead (no spin) ball or serve to the inverted rubber diagonal if they're a crab playing the whole width of the table with their pips, you might get an agressive return but it's a good option if you're confident you can best them in open rally.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

It's generally discouraged to serve backspin to the long pips. By giving them a backspin ball you'll get a floaty ball back which can cause you to make an error if you judge the spin or trajectory wrong.
The general advice you'll get is to serve fast long to the pips forcing the pips player to chop (especially againt spongeless since they can't make an agressive return) so you can loop the 3rd ball. You can also serve a dead (no spin) ball or serve to the inverted rubber diagonal if they're a crab playing the whole width of the table with their pips, you might get an agressive return but it's a good option if you're confident you can best them in open rally.

If I serve a dead ball to the pips, won't it come back as a dead ball? why is that better than serving underspin?

 

[chimyshark]

If I serve a dead ball to the pips, won't it come back as a dead ball? why is that better than serving underspin?

The point is to know the spin coming back. If you serve dead, then you don't have any confusion what it is. Low-level pips players rely on creating confusion as to what spin is on the ball. You usually don't keep track of the spin you put on the ball, you do it automatically with muscle memory, we train so that topspin goes with topspin, backspin goes with backspin. The less thinking the better.

 

[ShoutGuy]

If I serve a dead ball to the pips, won't it come back as a dead ball? why is that better than serving underspin?

A no spin ball is harder to deal for a LP player. a backspin ball can be punched with LP especially if is short. I think is a good tactic serve long backspin and attack but i dont smash/drive, I loop foward

 

[Lycanthrope]

I believe the long pips player you have played is not as simple as that, otherwise you wouldn't have made this post. 😁Unless someone here well knows the long pips player who you have played with, it is less likely to be able to predict how he is going to return a backspin serves. Long pips players can return the serves far easier than you.

 

[James Z]

Long pips players can return the serves far easier than you.

There are other many good & more important reasons why a (low or mid level) amateur player MUST ONLY use long pips and not anti or short pips on their weak side; but better return of serve is one of the biggerst advantages of using long pips over anti or short pips on weakside.
It is generally so easy to crush a passive return from short pips or even anti but even the best pros probably do not know what is coming back from a long pips return of serve. Pros just handle it much better but mostly instinctively due to their training & superior natural feel for spins rather than methodically (thinking about it).

I always have a good laugh when players try to serve with maximum spin,especially with side spin to a long pips opponent.
This is because these players think the same super spinny serves that works great against spinny inverted or short pips will also equally work great against long pips. HUGE MISTAKE

On related note, you will see in webpage below as to why short pips is the worst weakside rubber
http://dittf.atwebpages.com/sp/s7.htm

 

[Dominikk85]

I saw this video by a german defender

He shows kind of a fake topspin with the pip.

What kind of spin will that have? Is it backspin (video is German but you can see the shot)
https://youtu.be/UXAY0V9sLP0

 

[James Z]

Friction Long Pips can kill a lot of spin too,

Totally inorrect.
Frictioned long pips like Feint Long (Classic) do not kill spin.
Only glaasy top (frictionless type) long pips can kill spin (& therefore more deceptive)

But there seems to be this crazy myth that opposite is true.
I have discussed this so many times in forums but this myth persists because many top players use Tibhar DTec Ox (Manika & so mant top Indina female palyers) or have used (GOAT of all of table tennis, Joo Sae Hyuk, in desperation after his loss in WITTC 2003 finals).

You should also not forget the crtical fact that ALL long pips on ITTF LARC are pieces of crap in the 40+ ball era.

Tibhar Dtec is a frictionless type long pips. It does produce or retain & return some spin and return it as good back spin but it is NOT definitely due to the glassy nature of pips tops. It is due to many other pips design parameters such as pip flexibility etc.

What one needs to need to understand is that the behavior a long pips rubber is not based on just one of the seven or eight design parameters such as Aspect Ratio only or pip friction only etc but is based on a combination of many & as you stated depending on the stroke angle etc. But yes one parameter can be dominant however but it is possible to design two models that will produce same end result for one variale such as maximum back spin.

The concept is very similar to the difference between a sticky inverted and anti. The glassy top of anti does not grab or retain the spin but sticky inverted is similar to rough top pips, which can create more spin (top or back in case of short pips for example)

Joo Sae Hyuk was still very good but not because of Dtec. He was good despite it but just not good enough to make it clear he is the GOAT, because of the severely tilted playing field due to 8 rule / regulation changes after 1983

 

[James Z]

. Long pips players are always the best partner to practice loop.

This is EXACTLY why I ask that LP choppers must charge a fee from loopers.

The fee can be higher if you are one of few choppers in your club or if you are using High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips (which has the maximum Looper Torture Index)

But most choppers don't understand this & are too naive and believe tht a looper is your true friend. I would be even more careful about loopers who praise you & say how beautiful and sexy chopping style is. etc. They will pretend to be your friends but are top notch backstabbers (as they work at teh same time with booster supremacists who control teh ITTF to furtehr limit pips & anti)

What I learned over the years, especially after 1998 is this >> Never trust a two wing looper or in fact never trust a table tennis player in general (such as those using functional rubbers in social mode such as weakside short pips)

 

[loerting]

Train / play with LP yourself. You will develop a feeling for them, and won't have to think about which spin comes back. If it is a weird ball and you don't know what spin is coming, watch the logo closely. If it doesn't move at all, it's dead. If it moves, you can guess the spin off the trajectory.

 

[loerting]

I saw this video by a german defender

He shows kind of a fake topspin with the pip.

What kind of spin will that have? Is it backspin (video is German but you can see the shot)
https://youtu.be/UXAY0V9sLP0

Pretty much dead, maybe light underspin. If you block it / drive it, it will fall in the net. If you receive such a ball, just attack it using a topspin.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Just as a fun experiment, I switched rackets against a long pips player today just to see how the game would go if we reverse roles. Normally I'm the attacker, and its always a tiring and stressful game. It's really not fun playing against long pips defender.

Well I've never even held a long pips in my hand before, and had no particular strategy for how to play. I just pushed every single shot back or sliced back. And the game was really easy and relaxing and one-sided. I don't have to worry about missing loops or something, I just sit back and wait for the opponent to make mistakes. It's a really relaxing and easy way to play and win points.

Maybe I should put together a spare defensive racket just to annoy people with.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

I also notice that if I loop to their LP and they slice it back, it will have ridiculously high spin. It's completely not worth the risk to attempt to loop this 2nd ball.

Any advice on how to handle this 2nd ball? It seems the 3rd ball has even more spin if I loop the 2nd ball.

 

[igorponger]

[size=+1]Yes, you are free to use LP as long as they sucseeding to pass friction test. Yinhe is able to maintain fair play with their "testing slide", affordable device for all clubs. [/size]