BH differences

[Ilcane1]

Sorry maybe i made a wrong post edit. Btw i saw FanZendong bh and now my question is: should i use my elbow as pivot over the table, and my shoulder as pivot for q bh topspin? Or always my elbow?

 

[Hysteresis]

Sorry maybe i made a wrong post edit. Btw i saw FanZendong bh and now my question is: should i use my elbow as pivot over the table, and my shoulder as pivot for q bh topspin? Or always my elbow?

Your elbow should be the pivot for both shots (maybe even below elbow for hard over the table flicks, but can make your shot less stable).

For the big loop, your hand starts from slightly below the table, and ideally you contact the ball slightly after top of bounce. You use your legs to power the upward motion.

For the flick, you ideally contact right at/near top of bounce, and your bat starts at pretty much the height you are going to contact the ball. There is basically no lower body involvement except to get into position.

 

[NextLevel]

Sorry maybe i made a wrong post edit. Btw i saw FanZendong bh and now my question is: should i use my elbow as pivot over the table, and my shoulder as pivot for q bh topspin? Or always my elbow?

To be honest, the simplest way to get reasonable advice is to post a video of your attempts. General advice almost never addresses specific issues.

 

[deams59]

I question your advice regarding throwing your body upwards and backwards. If his power flicks are going long perhaps it is a result of upward movement of the body when striking the ball. A close examination of FZD in the video shows that his head and body remain still up until the time he has hit the ball. The subsequent movement of the body seems to me to be as a result of the follow through, maintaining balance and being in the optimal position for the next shot.

 

[NextLevel]

I question your advice regarding throwing your body upwards and backwards. If his power flicks are going long perhaps it is a result of upward movement of the body when striking the ball. A close examination of FZD in the video shows that his head and body remain still up until the time he has hit the ball. The subsequent movement of the body seems to me to be as a result of the follow through, maintaining balance and being in the optimal position for the next shot.

The follow through is part of the stroke, it may not look like it but it is. And while it is partly for the reasons you mentioned, for a backspin ball, which is precisely the kind of ball the OP said he puts into the net, the extra lift from that motion helps you spin the ball over the net onto the table. It is when he hits the ball too flat it goes long so it could be not just upward motion. In general, if you play a backhand topspin, the body tends to go backwards not forward as the back tends to propel the arm forward. I'm partly parroting a tutorial on the subject, so forgive me for any errors I am making in communicating the technique. But I know I often lean forward to play backhands and my momentum of my body goes backward while my swing goes forward (all part of circular twisting).

In any case, this is all general technical discussion, if we see the stroke, we can make recommendations.

 

[Der_Echte]

There are so many different BH shots it is difficult to quantify all of them... then you have the "there is not just one path" thing too.

I see so much times where professional coaches for kids and adults advocate a "compact" movement that is kinda long for a medium ball coming to them with not so much spin (the warm-up BH) where it can also be done with a shorter stroke direct path with the same or better consistency.

This kinda thing makes it all the more confusing for a newer player asking technique questions on TT forums.

Coach A and Coach B may have different approaches to the same shot and both may end up being sound technique for that same player to build a match ready shot.

Add more confusion as it is hard to define a generic incoming ball. Every ball is different, we would need to know just about every possible X,Y,Z coordinate with the direction, spin, delta and so on just to have a proper idea of what ball the OP is trying to do something with...

Then the OP has got to define what output he is trying to achieve... must clearly articulate the desired result in terms of spin, speed, placement, depth, height, trajectory, etc.

There are so many ways to produce a result with the BH. We didn't even cover what grip pressure to use when... how to get into position, how to use the muscles in a chain sequence... how to adjust when out of position... how to create kinetic energy and channel/amplify it with the whip.

Until most of that gets clear, it would be a blind shot.

I generally have the same approach to a problem that Next Level has... define and understand the situation and provide solutions that are player and level relevant. A vid of an OP with comments where he or she is attempting something usually yields decent data to work with.

I would give out different advice for the OP than I would give to Carl if he asked me the same question for the same shot situation. I know where Carl is on several BH situations and what I would tell him would be a failure if the OP tried it.

I am not an elite amateur player, nor will I become one If I train the ret of my life, but I know technique, I know biomechanics, I know how adults work, I know how to evaluate, I know how to develop someone with progression, instead of hammering an endstate like you do with kids.

Anyone feel free to unleash Goon Squad on me, Carl is reprograming my high speed second-hand phone evasion algorithm and right now is a bad time for me to get chased and survive.

 

[Ilcane1]

Thank you guys. I will share my video probably this afternoon vs my robot.
Another question: vs heavy backspin ball (without sidespin) is it preferable to hit the ball on its side, where there is less spin?
I will post some videos with different spins and depths, i'd like to find my way to be ready to give back aggressive strokes the most i can, for my game my coach said i need to play fast.

 

[Hysteresis]

Thank you guys. I will share my video probably this afternoon vs my robot.
Another question: vs heavy backspin ball (without sidespin) is it preferable to hit the ball on its side, where there is less spin?
I will post some videos with different spins and depths, i'd like to find my way to be ready to give back aggressive strokes the most i can, for my game my coach said i need to play fast.

It depends if you are talking about shots over the table or behind the table. But generally speaking if you "need to play fast", that necessitates a shorter stroke, and you are better off taking the ball a bit from the side rather than trying to overpower the spin on the ball, which usually requires a fuller stroke when the spin is heavy.

 

[Ilcane1]

For "fast play" i mean my best gameplay emerges when i have less reaction time (when i think too much i take the wrong choice or i change my strokes too late and i mistake)

 

[Der_Echte]

One example is a BH opening loop approach vs a long or half long underspin.

In general, I favor opening with heavy spin. Usually, this will mean a slow heavy spin that may bounce up a little or a little-lot. To make this shot, you would cock wrist, squat down, get wrist between legs, let ball come down and lift up explode up/forward.

When I make this spin, it is darned difficult to handle, except really loosen up and block it off the bounce. A player could try to crush it, but that timing is difficult and lower percentage.

I also believe in being able to bh open loop at medium and fast speeds too.

A long time coach in my area, who plays around 3 to 4 levels better than me, advocates the fast loop... cocking wrist, getting down some, and exploding mostly forward. Impact is on the rise, sometimes at top of bounce.

His rationale is that the modern game requires shots to be executed quicker and carry big speed to pressure the opponent. This coach agrees is is much easier to land the heavy slow ball.

I cannot disagree with that in priciple. That is a true concern at the higher levels, maybe the lower ones too.

The player he was advising to make this kind of quick fast opener is an O60 gent several levels above average CV lub level... Mid 1700s California level.

Sure, landing the on the tise fast loop can be troubling, but this player loses a lot of consistency on heavy low bouncing underspin long balls to the degree of pretty much giving away the point every time trying to attempt that shot.



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[Der_Echte]

So...

The real question ought to be what is appropriate for the level to succeed and what is right to do to for strategic growth.

That coach did not address that. He simply hammered the modern concept.

This approach is appropriate for strategic development of child junior players growing into the high and elite amateur levels.

I do not believe that approach is effective for the majority of developing adult players.

You will see Next Level and some others asking this question all the time.

What is an appropriate shot selection given the player level and quality of such and such ball? What should be an immediate action and what should be a strategic growth priority?

These are the things to be more readily addressed with an adult learner and I would say not every coach is good with developing adults. Actually, very few are good at that. It takes consideration of player, their abilities, and the goals. It requires a really flexible approach.

Not many coaches are that flexible. I wish more were.

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[aIex]

I'm garbage at BH.

 

[Der_Echte]

Getting to why I favor heavy spin...

There are several advantages.

1) I land that shot with higher percentage.
2) My heavy opener is a really low percentage ball to attack.
3) I do not piss away the point right away

Those advantages above to me are really good reasons at my lev err l th o DC o th hat.

The level of player that other coach in my area... they t rye y to counter my heavy topspin and land the counter under 20% of the time.

This shows me that my opener is still a good thing to do up to 3+ levels above my current level.

I have no need to be a speed freak right now, unless it is a high ball.

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[Der_Echte]

Thank you guys. I will share my video probably this afternoon vs my robot.
Another question: vs heavy backspin ball (without sidespin) is it preferable to hit the ball on its side, where there is less spin?
I will post some videos with different spins and depths, i'd like to find my way to be ready to give back aggressive strokes the most i can, for my game my coach said i need to play fast.

My quick answer vs a long heavy underspin is to dip the hips down, cock wrist, drop it between legs, allow ball to descend to around table level and explode upwards a little forward.

This is an easy shot to do if you get the biomechanics down. I developed this BH loop in a couple months just reading Larry Hodges tt book when I was a recreational player.

You could also take it on the rise around net high and forward swing fast loop blast it. That is a much more difficult stroke to develoop, but it is deadly.

Ask yourself, do you want consistency and good quality, or continually lose the point while it takes forever to grow a fast loop on rise?

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[Der_Echte]

Your explosion will handle the incoming spin just fine, no need to concern self about impacting on the side.

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[Der_Echte]

If you are trying to play fast and have not developed the st rye jokes for it, then you will lose points and matches real fast.

However, if you are growing these fast play strokes as a part of strategic development and are willing to lose games, go for it. You will be better down the road if you have a capacity to develop these shots.

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