Calderano Signs with Joola (#139)

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Joola USA has had well known struggles with being able to provide equipment reliably to their sponsored players and additionally I think it was documented here or on YouTube a while back that almost no Joola players except Ishiy (Lily, Pistej, Teodoro immediately come to mind) wear Joola shoes. Maybe it was @JackJohnson but I could be wrong.
What are the well known struggles? Aside from shoes I don’t know any issues with our players having what they need.
 
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Joola USA has had well known struggles with being able to provide equipment reliably to their sponsored players and additionally I think it was documented here or on YouTube a while back that almost no Joola players except Ishiy (Lily, Pistej, Teodoro immediately come to mind) wear Joola shoes. Maybe it was @JackJohnson but I could be wrong.
Can you cite a source for the well known struggles? That said, if Matt confirms these struggles, I will learn something.
 
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Not interested in saying specific things about specific people that would jeopardize the current or former relationship between Joola and their players, but maybe "well known" to those in those players circles. Given that Matt already confirmed the shoe struggle which to this day still leads to most of their sponsored players visibly wearing Mizuno, I don't think we need to start building a public laundry list.
The struggles are not well known then, they are just things you know of which I am fairly confident are legitimate but should be characterized as things you know of, not as "well known". Otherwise, you would have no need to keep them private.
 
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Admittedly that wasn't the best choice of words - no disagreements there. As now confirmed by Matt as well as our own eyes, do you consider the inability to produce shoes that players find worth wearing even after years of sponsorship to be indicative of mismanagement?

A lot comes down to how much a consumer wants to believe the issues confirmed here (shoes, Joola Xiamen Tezzo) are just two one-off unfortunate cases, or symptomatic of bigger issues.
Maybe as symptomatic of issues as their inability to provide custom blades for their players....

More seriously, I have size 15 shoes so I can't buy TT shoes from any brand so I tend to fall asleep when people discuss TT shoes. So maybe it is a big issue with pros but I would not be the one to ask. Struggles with managing a China distributor, maybe it is a massive issue but I am not the one to ask since I tend to mostly buy Butterfly equipment (I do have two Trinity blades though I wish they were ZQH's lol).

Okay, much more seriously, I think TT broadly has issues, so I can't tell if Joola issues as you describe them make them special. But none of these things has been so big that they have been plastered as headlines anywhere. But TT doesn't get plastered as headlines usually, so it is when you deal with the company that you get issues. And maybe I just haven't bought enough Joola stuff to know. But I also haven't seen enough complaints on TT forums to think of it as a big deal.
 
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As I said much further back in the thread, pro players tend to prefer heavier blades whereas the general market are more comfortable in the 83-87 gram range.
Hey @Matt Hetherington, I was wondering if you can elaborate on how JOOLA (or your manufacturing partners) achieves consistently heavier blades for your pro players compared to the commercial market blades?

I'm also curious about the market research and product design decisions that go on at brands like JOOLA behind these types of decisions. Personally, I actually prefer heavier blades, and I've recently noticed that many brands have very tight weight distributions among their blades around 85g (especially among those seemingly manufactured by the Korean blade factory). This has actually turned me off from buying/using some of these blades in the past (including Xiom's Hugo blade, but also the Andro VCO blade), because no retailer I contacted had one that was heavy enough. Would JOOLA consider making some heavier models commercially available?

Relatedly, how much do brands investigate whether naming premium blades/rubbers after players is actually a good way to market products? Tennis rackets are (to my knowledge) almost never named after players -- the only exception I can think of is Wilson's Federer line of rackets (and even these are not really designed for widespread use). Obviously tennis brands market their gear based on who uses it, but the product itself isn't literally named after a player. They just say something like "endorsed by XYZ." Looking at JOOLA's pickleball lineup it seems like at least some premium rackets are named after sponsored players. My personal preference is to not use equipment with someone else's name on it, or a particular country's flag on the handle, if there is an equivalent alternative. Performance and comfort is always the first priority, so sometimes this isn't possible, but I'd always be happier if it were an option.

Maybe my preferences (for heavy, non-player-named blades) are just really niche in the table tennis equipment market, idk. But I'm curious how much research has actually gone into making these marketing decisions. It seems like not naming stuff after players (and having fewer products overall) would at least help with managing inventory, which seems to be the biggest problem facing smaller table tennis brands. Because I'm sure it becomes a headache if a player you've named a bunch of stuff for leaves or changes gear after you've already ordered a bunch of named blades (or printed a bunch of rubbers). And looking around, it seems like that happens pretty often -- Zhou Qihao being a case in point.
 
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Hey @Matt Hetherington, I was wondering if you can elaborate on how JOOLA (or your manufacturing partners) achieves consistently heavier blades for your pro players compared to the commercial market blades?

I'm also curious about the market research and product design decisions that go on at brands like JOOLA behind these types of decisions. Personally, I actually prefer heavier blades, and I've recently noticed that many brands have very tight weight distributions among their blades around 85g (especially among those seemingly manufactured by the Korean blade factory). This has actually turned me off from buying/using some of these blades in the past (including Xiom's Hugo blade, but also the Andro VCO blade), because no retailer I contacted had one that was heavy enough. Would JOOLA consider making some heavier models commercially available?

Relatedly, how much do brands investigate whether naming premium blades/rubbers after players is actually a good way to market products? Tennis rackets are (to my knowledge) almost never named after players -- the only exception I can think of is Wilson's Federer line of rackets (and even these are not really designed for widespread use). Obviously tennis brands market their gear based on who uses it, but the product itself isn't literally named after a player. They just say something like "endorsed by XYZ." Looking at JOOLA's pickleball lineup it seems like at least some premium rackets are named after sponsored players. My personal preference is to not use equipment with someone else's name on it, or a particular country's flag on the handle, if there is an equivalent alternative. Performance and comfort is always the first priority, so sometimes this isn't possible, but I'd always be happier if it were an option.

Maybe my preferences (for heavy, non-player-named blades) are just really niche in the table tennis equipment market, idk. But I'm curious how much research has actually gone into making these marketing decisions. It seems like not naming stuff after players (and having fewer products overall) would at least help with managing inventory, which seems to be the biggest problem facing smaller table tennis brands. Because I'm sure it becomes a headache if a player you've named a bunch of stuff for leaves or changes gear after you've already ordered a bunch of named blades (or printed a bunch of rubbers). And looking around, it seems like that happens pretty often -- Zhou Qihao being a case in point.
Well no 2 pieces of wood are the same, they have different grains, different densities etc, that's how there is usually a +-4 gram variance even if blades are advertised at 85 grams for example. You can probably also reduce the size of any hollowing of the handle or core etc. I'm just speculating on what I know about blade production in general and composition of blades.

I don't think you can really compare table tennis market to other markets, it has been pretty clear that BTY's strategy of naming equipment after players has been very successful. Joola has definitely been reluctant to create bunch of products with player names on just for the sake of it, but some of these partnerships are very involved collaborations with top players so it makes sense to produce equipment based on their preferences, testing and feedback. A lot of people want to know what a player like Hugo is using and may want to try it themselves, and having personalized branding tends to be of interest to people when it comes to their favourite players. The Viscaria is probably the biggest outlier in the world of table tennis I would say.
 
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Admittedly that wasn't the best choice of words - no disagreements there. As now confirmed by Matt as well as our own eyes, do you consider the inability to produce shoes that players find worth wearing even after years of sponsorship to be indicative of mismanagement?

A lot comes down to how much a consumer wants to believe the issues confirmed here (shoes, Joola Xiamen Tezzo) are just two one-off unfortunate cases, or symptomatic of bigger issues.
It's not the end of the world if a table tennis company doesn't have shoes that sponsored players want to wear. Actually a large part of the reason is that we haven't released any new shoe models for quite some time, we have been working on something for 2026 - so we will see if it's something our players adopt or not. If you look at the table tennis international scene as a whole, a lot of sponsored players wear Mizuno rather than their sponsored brand.
 
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It's not the end of the world if a table tennis company doesn't have shoes that sponsored players want to wear. Actually a large part of the reason is that we haven't released any new shoe models for quite some time, we have been working on something for 2026 - so we will see if it's something our players adopt or not. If you look at the table tennis international scene as a whole, a lot of sponsored players wear Mizuno rather than their sponsored brand.

Many wearing Li Ning as well
 
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Joola USA has had well known struggles with being able to provide equipment reliably to their sponsored players and additionally I think it was documented here or on YouTube a while back that almost no Joola players except Ishiy (Lily, Pistej, Teodoro immediately come to mind) wear Joola shoes. Maybe it was @JackJohnson but I could be wrong.
I did mention Joola shoes previously. Seems only Ishiy wears Joola shoes. Everyone else wears Mizuno Shoes. Pitchford wears Asics.

So it seems only the Joola shoes are not enforced which is fine.
 
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I did mention Joola shoes previously. Seems only Ishiy wears Joola shoes. Everyone else wears Mizuno Shoes. Pitchford wears Asics.

So it seems only the Joola shoes are not enforced which is fine.
Well we have a really good team working on shoes now with some extremely good background in the industry so i’m confident about shoes moving forward. It’s been a slow and meticulous process to try and turn a new leaf on that front.
 
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The only difference between whatever blade Hugo chooses and what may be commercially available is likely the weight, and the fact that a manufacturer tends to have a higher quality and finishing when they produce for a player 5-10 blades vs mass producing say 2-3 thousand.

Honestly most pros are using blades 90 grams or heavier and it’s just not a feasible weight for the commercial market, people do not want blades in the 90-95g weight range.

I don’t think there’s much more for me to add on that topic really.
This has already been cleared up
 
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Well, when you look at all the evidence, what is your best hypothesis?
If I were a distributor in China, I might be tempted as well, seeing that the strategy of having many tiers of the same product works well for DHS and 729, I might think of this as a missed opportunity to make money.

I might select a few blades among the ones I've received that I consider better than the other blades, print something on them to differentiate them and sell them for 3x the price.

I may even think that the brand doesn't know how to sell its products and I know better and my way is the one that works in this market; doesn't matter if this would be considered unethical in other parts of the world.
 
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Ah okay, you have an article to refer to that summarizes your position? Something I can use to understand the foundation? Or just too many Tieba posts that give an impression? And who has to come clean about what?
Joola gained a lot of angry "customers" who backed their Infinity robot, a Kickstarter project that started in 2019, after abandoning the project merely 3 years after delivery. Joola was in a huge controversy in pickleball as well, coupled with the Selkirk's allegations and a class action lawsuit. The timing begs the question - did they "pivot" back to table tennis as a fail-safe because of that?

Joola Screwing Their Customers
https://www.reddit.com/r/tabletennis/comments/1goebul/joola_screwing_their_customers/

Any News on the Joola Infinity Robot?
https://www.reddit.com/r/tabletennis/comments/1asd2ls/any_news_on_the_joola_infinity_robot/
Joola Infinity
https://www.reddit.com/r/tabletennis/comments/xx7ey8/joola_infinity/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thekitchenPB/posts/1863228060858231/
Ian Do Mingez
Not everyone likes to change paddles to get used to them just before a tournament. The scientific literature proves that changing back and forth between new equipment, be they paddle, club, bat, or racquet is detrimental and you will always be suboptimal with that strategy.
And customers were sold a false bill of goods. They were promised, at an exorbitant cost, a USAPA approved paddle and did not get that. Cheaper, smaller manufacturers don’t often screw that part up. So they have a right to be pissed.
Personally, I can’t stand Joola equipment in either table tennis or pickleball, so I had no interest and consider myself lucky in that regard. Let’s just say, joola has had many issues in the Table Tennis world as well. Mismanagement and poor customer service is not uncommon with Joola.
1y

MAJOR CONTROVERSY In Pickleball | Selkirk Letters, UPA and More
https://youtu.be/ZsLv5b_Fxj8?t=1062
so can I just say this doesn't it feel like this interim passing test
was literally just made for Yola because they were in a hard spot and I think that's exactly what celr mentions in the
letter is like the UPA is they they bring out out that the UPA is biased
towards Yola and you know that maybe money is exchanging hands and whatnot

that they're doing all of this just so they can get Yola's pedal approved because let's be honest Yola was in a
rough spot right there Yol was in a very rough spot they had a ton of inventory on hand they got their whole inventory
um banned from the usap approved list and now they have to go out and give these Pros a paddle that you know right
now they don't have a paddle like they went back to the mod ta15
the mod only comes in one shape it comes in the pereus shape so you don't have that

USA Pickleball Strikes Back Against JOOLA Lawsuit
https://youtu.be/F-xF7YlL148?t=3211
Subsequent to the public uproar, Yola, it's a little unclear exactly whether
it's Yola saying that the that the prototypes are have differences to the
as marketed paddles, whether USAP discovers it, whether people independently discover it. But any
event, it does come out that the as marketed paddles have differences from the prototype paddles.
That's not
disputed either.
https://youtu.be/F-xF7YlL148?t=3772
the next point I think is it's uncontested again that there are differences between the prototypes and
the as marketed paddles. And a lot of people have speculated, well, case is over then, right? USA wins. No, it
doesn't. Are they relevant? Are those differences relevant? And Yola's
argument is they're not relevant differences. Um, suppose the the
prototypes were painted green and the marketed paddles are painted black. Who cares? It's an irrelevant difference.
Suppose they submitted them with a with a uh a grip of four and the marketed ones
are four and a quarter. Irrelevant. Who cares? So, the key point is, is are the
marketed paddles different in a relative and important way? a way that would have
failed the USAP testing that was in place at the time. Not testing six
months later, not a different standard, but the standard done at the time of the prototype paddles. And that's where we
get into the technicalities of the the uh edging of the foam and so on and and and how powerful they are.
I'd be
interested if if anybody's done testing on that prototype versus as marketed
paddle.
 
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Joola gained a lot of angry "customers" who backed their Infinity robot, a Kickstarter project that started in 2019, after abandoning the project merely 3 years after delivery. Joola was in a huge controversy in pickleball as well, coupled with the Selkirk's allegations and a class action lawsuit. The timing begs the question - did they "pivot" back to table tennis as a fail-safe because of that?

Joola Screwing Their Customers
https://www.reddit.com/r/tabletennis/comments/1goebul/joola_screwing_their_customers/

Any News on the Joola Infinity Robot?
https://www.reddit.com/r/tabletennis/comments/1asd2ls/any_news_on_the_joola_infinity_robot/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thekitchenPB/posts/1863228060858231/
Ian Do Mingez
Not everyone likes to change paddles to get used to them just before a tournament. The scientific literature proves that changing back and forth between new equipment, be they paddle, club, bat, or racquet is detrimental and you will always be suboptimal with that strategy.
And customers were sold a false bill of goods. They were promised, at an exorbitant cost, a USAPA approved paddle and did not get that. Cheaper, smaller manufacturers don’t often screw that part up. So they have a right to be pissed.
Personally, I can’t stand Joola equipment in either table tennis or pickleball, so I had no interest and consider myself lucky in that regard. Let’s just say, joola has had many issues in the Table Tennis world as well. Mismanagement and poor customer service is not uncommon with Joola.
1y

MAJOR CONTROVERSY In Pickleball | Selkirk Letters, UPA and More
https://youtu.be/ZsLv5b_Fxj8?t=1062
Wow. Lots of notorious stuff. So what do you want them to come clean about? To admit what exactly?
 
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And Selkirk's letter.

Shots fired: Selkirk calls for all paddle manufacturers to act with integrity
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pickleball/comments/1dfstfg/shots_fired_selkirk_calls_for_all_paddle/
maxcaliburx • 2y ago
I speak with manufacturers all the time. I was actually surprised when they told me the paddle they submitted to USAP specially made so they pass USAP tests. This is actually common practice.

Selkirk Pushes back on UPA-A and their "lab" PPL
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pickleball/comments/1eyn4jz/selkirk_pushes_back_on_upaa_and_their_lab_ppl/
 
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Putting them all together for future reference.

He doesn’t get special versions 🤣 I don’t know why so many people assume that all pros have special or different blades. I can tell you right now there is no Joola sponsored player who is using a special blade, they are absolutely all commercial. Even someone like Pitchford is using the same ZQH blade that you could get from a shelf. I would know since I’m the one who gives them the equipment 🤭
You can choose to believe me or not, I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince anyone 🤣 if you don’t believe me that’s fine, I’m just telling you there are no special blades - take it with a grain of salt.
The only difference between whatever blade Hugo chooses and what may be commercially available is likely the weight, and the fact that a manufacturer tends to have a higher quality and finishing when they produce for a player 5-10 blades vs mass producing say 2-3 thousand.

Honestly most pros are using blades 90 grams or heavier and it’s just not a feasible weight for the commercial market, people do not want blades in the 90-95g weight range.


I don’t think there’s much more for me to add on that topic really.

Most commonly used for samples to identify what they actually are. In mass production they have their respective handles so don’t need identifying.
They are prototypes yes, they are custom made in the sense that the blades don't exist in the market yet and aren't being mass produced.
As I said much further back in the thread, pro players tend to prefer heavier blades whereas the general market are more comfortable in the 83-87 gram range.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...igns-with-joola-139.38480/page-15#post-557889
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...igns-with-joola-139.38480/page-15#post-557893
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...igns-with-joola-139.38480/page-19#post-558291
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...igns-with-joola-139.38480/page-32#post-559826
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...igns-with-joola-139.38480/page-33#post-559847
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...igns-with-joola-139.38480/page-34#post-559903
 
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Ok if you’re going to deviate so far from the thread then I have nothing else to add really. You continue with your agenda here, I’m going back to work.
 
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