Carbon blades - are they better?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

All ITTF needs to do is develop the standardized tests, and require equipment vendors to submit test results for any new equipment as part of the certification process. And then perform random tests and ban vendors who lie. Nothing that hasn't been done before in other industries. This is really not rocket science.

I hope not
the more they are involved with equipment, the more problems for fans and players
Just look what happened to the ball

 

[vvk1]

I hope not
the more they are involved with equipment, the more problems for fans and players
Just look what happened to the ball

I would argue that the inconsistencies between plastic balls from different vendors stem precisely from the lack of enforcement of quality. Your argument, if taken to the extreme - no ITTF involvement whatsoever, right - would eliminate any incentive for equipment vendors to adhere to any quality standards.

 

[NextLevel]

You're absolutely right (Except probably about xu xin). Thank you for pointing out the utter statistical insignificance (and indeed anomaly) of pros who DON'T use carbon blades and making my point for me!

If you say so. Xu Xin has been world #1 and a World Cup champ. Lebesson, Gauzy and Shibaev (And I forgot to add the Korean with the amazing backhand whose name eludes me for some reason) are all top players on their continent.

For someone who posts as arrogantly as you do, it would be a pleasure to see the quality of your play.

 

[pgpg]

All ITTF needs to do is develop the standardized tests, and require equipment vendors to submit test results for any new equipment as part of the certification process. And then perform random tests and ban vendors who lie. Nothing that hasn't been done before in other industries. This is really not rocket science.

Is this done in any other sport? I suspect it exists in electronics, industrial engineering etc., but even there, not sure if it's a job of certification body to police vendor's compliance with published specs.

The closest in sport I think is golf, where they would check that driver complies with limit on COR, but that's about it...

 

[vvk1]

Just google "sports equipment certification".

 

[pgpg]

Just google "sports equipment certification".

I did - top result is for the program to certify 'equipment managers', that is people who manage equipment, for teams, I presume. Other links are mostly for organizations I never heard of, the most interesting one being about certification for football helmets (american football, that is) - OK, that one is relevant, with someone actually trying to make sure it works and meets standards someone established.

But for every other sports equipment I've seen: footballs, basketballs, hockey sticks, golf balls/clubs - the best you can hope for is that it is approved by governing federation (like ITTF stamp we already have). Perhaps it's a reflection of TT uniqueness - too many parameters for rubbers and blades.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

You're absolutely right (Except probably about xu xin). Thank you for pointing out the utter statistical insignificance (and indeed anomaly) of pros who DON'T use carbon blades and making my point for me!

Stepping out of the discussion and into moderator mode: these are the kinds of comments where you are not fully making a point but you are making a comment in an inflammatory way which will often elicit an emotional and usually angry response. In the world of on line forums, this kind of comment is called trolling.

I am confident at this point that you don’t realize that is what you are doing. And in conversation and debate with people in person, this kind of response can work when you know the people you are conversing with. However, in online discussions, this kind of comment can spiral into something bad.

I get that you are probably not meaning to make comments that would be categorized as trolling. So, in the future, try and make points like this less concisely and with more detail about the full context of what you mean so it is clear that it is not an attack.

You may not realize it. And you are very smart. But there is a level of arrogance and manipulativeness in your comment that could really upset some people and get them enraged.

Thanks. I know this is way back in the thread. But it is worth noting the detail of how the comment was presented which may be different than the actual content you intended.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[jawien]

[...]
For someone who posts as arrogantly as you do, it would be a pleasure to see the quality of your play.

Ha, ha guys ... this is the first time I believe we'll see the table tennis duel. For life and death till the last blood!!!
easy ...

 

[yoass]

Is this done in any other sport? I suspect it exists in electronics, industrial engineering etc., but even there, not sure if it's a job of certification body to police vendor's compliance with published specs.

The closest in sport I think is golf, where they would check that driver complies with limit on COR, but that's about it...

I think in the racing "sports" (Formula One comes to mind) quite a lot of such rules, regulations, and tests apply.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I would argue that the inconsistencies between plastic balls from different vendors stem precisely from the lack of enforcement of quality. Your argument, if taken to the extreme - no ITTF involvement whatsoever, right - would eliminate any incentive for equipment vendors to adhere to any quality standards.

Seems like you don't know much about the new ball

The new ball was approved by ITTF before the vendors was able to produce proper balls
Heck, at that time, it was only 1 vendor able to produce "not market ready" balls

Guess what, ITTF disapproved old ball and approve new ball before vendors was even ready

This is just one of many of what I can debate with you on the matter on that ITTF is not equip to manage equipment. Or simply some one high up was afraid of some shame of delaying the launch of the new ball due to "problems"
As a whole, the first 2 years of the new ball took table tennis community members has guinea pigs, and guess who wallets hurts?

I was fortunate enough to have sample prototypes early enough.
The first batch of balls really was shocking.

Seems like they got approved by ITTF more from a commercial reason (imagine no cellu balls, and no poly balls for 1 year)......

 

[RidTheKid]

Shibaev is using Viscaria.

If you say so. Xu Xin has been world #1 and a World Cup champ. Lebesson, Gauzy and Shibaev (And I forgot to add the Korean with the amazing backhand whose name eludes me for some reason) are all top players on their continent.

For someone who posts as arrogantly as you do, it would be a pleasure to see the quality of your play.

 

[pgpg]

I think in the racing "sports" (Formula One comes to mind) quite a lot of such rules, regulations, and tests apply.

Yes, but here is a difference: F1, NASCAR (and golf to a degree) made a decision to put strict boundaries on some aspects of the equipment and have a system in pace to check for compliance. Closest equivalent of this in TT is racket control for VOC, rubber thickness etc. Rubber certification by ITTF is kind of in this camp too: aspect ratio, density of pips, friction (how do they test for it?).

But I thought 'vvk1' was arguing for the existence of certification body, be it from ITTF or 3rd party, that would make sure that manufacturer's claim that this rubber has speed/spin/control rating of 110/90/105 was actually accurate - and I can't find equivalent of this elsewhere in sports (especially since there are no official limits on speed, spin and control ). May be I misunderstood vvk1's point as well, it happens...

 

[NextLevel]

Shibaev is using Viscaria.

He may have changed, but at the last European Champs, his blade was identified as a Korbel - it is a popular blade amongst the top Russians. And I am sure you agree with me that the trend of pros changing and testing blades just shows they want to change. Samsonov has gone back and forth between wood and carbon as well. Gauzy went from Carbon to wood on his latest blade.

 

[jawien]

[...]
Guess what, ITTF disapproved old ball and approve new ball before vendors was even ready [...]

Yeah, as far as I remember the reasoning back than was that without obligating players to play plastics the vendors won't be able to finance any further research.

[...]table tennis community members has "guinea pigs", and guess who wallets hurts?

Is this is some sort of saying in South Africa?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes, but here is a difference: F1, NASCAR (and golf to a degree) made a decision to put strict boundaries on some aspects of the equipment and have a system in pace to check for compliance. Closest equivalent of this in TT is racket control for VOC, rubber thickness etc. Rubber certification by ITTF is kind of in this camp too: aspect ratio, density of pips, friction (how do they test for it?).

But I thought 'vvk1' was arguing for the existence of certification body, be it from ITTF or 3rd party, that would make sure that manufacturer's claim that this rubber has speed/spin/control rating of 110/90/105 was actually accurate - and I can't find equivalent of this elsewhere in sports (especially since there are no official limits on speed, spin and control ). May be I misunderstood vvk1's point as well, it happens...

Such body would only increase the price further of equipment
The already ITTF stamp we as end customers are paying a premium for (Does other sports have these "taxes"?)

IMO I don't care about the equipment ratings - since table tennis is not a sport about rating of rubbers etc
eg, I can spin the rubber 100, doesn't mean you can. So what does that mean? you rate it 60 while I rate it 100?
Rating is pure marketing right now, and the sport is just way too complex
Rubber one a blade rating will be different to another blade.... I can go on and on and on

 

[NextLevel]

I also forgot about Koki Niwa, who last I heard was using a 7ply TSP Swat. He could have changed again of course.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yeah, as far as I remember the reasoning back than was that without obligating players to play plastics the vendors won't be able to finance any further research.



Is this is some sort of saying in South Africa?

I think guinea pigs is universal English
It means it is either a person or things used as a subject of experiment

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I also forgot about Koki Niwa, who last I heard was using a 7ply TSP Swat. He could have changed again of course.

I think a lot of wood players only changed from 2016
Prior to that, there is a good number still using wood
and before poly balls, there was even more

There is no doubt wood has high demand in the pro sections
sadly with ITTF changing rules more than it does anything else, the players are forced to train differently, forced to retire or forced to change equipment

 

[RidTheKid]

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?12497-The-Pro-s-Equipment-Discussion!/page11

I agree, but it's always a matter of taste. But it's also no coincidence that the majority of the top players have opted for carbon since the introduction of the plastic ball. Gauzy bases his game on more feeling and finesse than most players and maybe that was why he now plays an all wood, but sooner or later I believe he will see that he lacks some punch and will go back to carbon. Considering he's happy with his current level and development, that is

He may have changed, but at the last European Champs, his blade was identified as a Korbel - it is a popular blade amongst the top Russians. And I am sure you agree with me that the trend of pros changing and testing blades just shows they want to change. Samsonov has gone back and forth between wood and carbon as well. Gauzy went from Carbon to wood on his latest blade.

 

[NextLevel]

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?12497-The-Pro-s-Equipment-Discussion!/page11

I agree, but it's always a matter of taste. But it's also no coincidence that the majority of the top players have opted for carbon since the introduction of the plastic ball. Gauzy bases his game on more feeling and finesse than most players and maybe that was why he now plays an all wood, but sooner or later I believe he will see that he lacks some punch and will go back to carbon. Considering he's happy with his current level and development, that is

Yes. I bring up those examples to show that even with the dominant trend, outliers still exist and that anything that is even barely viable at the pro level is usually more than viable at the amateur level.