Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[JeffM]

Today I got to play again on the weekly Tuesday session!

Today 2 of the players I was hoping to be there wasn't there, but this time a young French couple came down while they are on their road trip and they know how to play.

I got to warm up a little bit with my buddy, it wasn't the best warm up but it is better than not having anything.

Then I played with the French guy. He has played a few times in the Perth club, and he is in the A grade. He didn't have much trouble with me. He cruised through 4-1. I did win a set so that was nice, it was after duecing a few times. He said he liked my forehand alot, then I acknowledge that my bh isn't so good. He had some nice serves, especially his topspin serves, and both his fh and bh were good.

Then I went on to play with another club member whom i have never played against. I thought I would have a pretty easy time, but it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. I ended up winning 4-1, but I did lose that 1 set.

Then I got asked to play with another club member, and this is the part that I dislike again. My rating is -9 while he is -1, so he said to start at -8 for me and 0 for him. He had a weird bat setup, must have been some sort of no sponge short pip backhand rubber and maybe a no sponge forehand rubber that is like a pretty old rubber. I won 4-1, but I lose 1 set because i just feel so demoralised when he is like 6 or 7 meanwhile I am still in the negatives.

While awaiting to play the French girl, I asked the French guy some questions about how he did his serves and why when I try to do my serve, it isn't backspin (it actually caught him off guard a few times too in the match we played, when he popped it sky high, but I also want to actually be able to serve backspin when I wanted to lol). He was nice enough to show me and let me practice while giving me some general tips.

Finally I get to play the French girl. I have seen her videos when she played at the Perth club. She is in the B grade. She had solid warming up strokes, and so I was able to really maintain a fh to fh and bh to bh rally for really long. That is really what I need for warm up, not to hit 2-3 fh then have to pick up the ball again. Perhaps that helped me alot, so in the game, while my forehand is dominating, my bh was doing a pretty fine job by my standard! I was opening up with backhand on the backspin balls, and to my surprise, I am choosing to go down the line or cross court with them. That was how confident I got in that match. So I won 6-1.

So again, another wonderful evening. I thought I would be stuffed as I did have to wake up 6am to work 10 hours prior to going to TT at night with no dinner. I have to admit that during the last match, I was seriously starving and my tummy wasn't happy, but I still performed.

 

[NextLevel]

So unfortunately, no time to edit till next Sunday. But here is a match against the guy I struggle to beat and who I train with at his place.

 

[dingyibvs]

So unfortunately, no time to edit till next Sunday. But here is a match against the guy I struggle to beat and who I train with at his place.

Nice playing! Seems like you're usually able to get the first strong attack in, but he defends with enough quality to cause you to eventually miss when he wins a point. I'm hoping I can develop a fluid BH like you some day.

So I went to play in the club yesterday, and as expected the new forms haven't taken hold yet. Once a point starts, and we weren't even keeping score, the old forms come back right away. I think I'll spend the next couple of days to get the new form down with mostly stationary exercises, then start adding footwork by the weekend. I'll post some new videos at that point of time.

 

[NextLevel]

Nice playing! Seems like you're usually able to get the first strong attack in, but he defends with enough quality to cause you to eventually miss when he wins a point. I'm hoping I can develop a fluid BH like you some day.

So I went to play in the club yesterday, and as expected the new forms haven't taken hold yet. Once a point starts, and we weren't even keeping score, the old forms come back right away. I think I'll spend the next couple of days to get the new form down with mostly stationary exercises, then start adding footwork by the weekend. I'll post some new videos at that point of time.

Thanks, I think I benefit from hitting with him, he brings and counterattacks so many balls back it is insane for me. When we first started playing, the points were over quickly because I missed his serves or stuff like that with all my rustiness. So with more familiarity, I survive the serves a bit better and do better on anticipating and attacking the long ones. Finding someone to hit with who plays at a good level is always a huge boost, if I can continue to hit with him at least once a week, something good should come of it.

Thanks for the kind words on the backhand, the main thing I tell players with strong forehands is that they should be patient with the backhand and not start out trying to make it exactly like their forehand and focus more on spin production with the right wrist backswing than power. Since the top Chinese players and even European players are killing the backhand player myth with their balanced play, hopefully more people will follow their example.

 

[dingyibvs]

Thanks, I think I benefit from hitting with him, he brings and counterattacks so many balls back it is insane for me. When we first started playing, the points were over quickly because I missed his serves or stuff like that with all my rustiness. So with more familiarity, I survive the serves a bit better and do better on anticipating and attacking the long ones. Finding someone to hit with who plays at a good level is always a huge boost, if I can continue to hit with him at least once a week, something good should come of it.

Thanks for the kind words on the backhand, the main thing I tell players with strong forehands is that they should be patient with the backhand and not start out trying to make it exactly like their forehand and focus more on spin production with the right wrist backswing than power. Since the top Chinese players and even European players are killing the backhand player myth with their balanced play, hopefully more people will follow their example.

That's very helpful advice, I think I've fallen into the trap of trying to have a powerful BH from the get go. I'll try to pursue a more spinny and steady game for the time being while continue to work on power production in practice so I can eventually add it to my game.

 

[NextLevel]

That's very helpful advice, I think I've fallen into the trap of trying to have a powerful BH from the get go. I'll try to pursue a more spinny and steady game for the time being while continue to work on power production in practice so I can eventually add it to my game.

Use this video. It is alien for most people to backswing like this, but be patient with any grip switches, the returns are exponential even if you only get 50% of what is being done.

 

[dingyibvs]

Use this video. It is alien for most people to backswing like this, but be patient with any grip switches, the returns are exponential even if you only get 50% of what is being done.

I think the biggest problem for me is the timing. I'm either early or late to the ball. BH strokes have the ball in front of you, and it's a lot harder to judge how close it is to you than when it's to your side like FH strokes. It's even harder because sometimes your own racket obstructs your vision. I'll put more focus on swinging a bit later like Liam there, I think that may help with the vision obstruction issue as well.

 

[blahness]

I think the biggest problem for me is the timing. I'm either early or late to the ball. BH strokes have the ball in front of you, and it's a lot harder to judge how close it is to you than when it's to your side like FH strokes. It's even harder because sometimes your own racket obstructs your vision. I'll put more focus on swinging a bit later like Liam there, I think that may help with the vision obstruction issue as well.

There's a triangle concept you could use to keep all balls within this strike zone with the triangle being defined by your core, the two sides being your 2 arms and the ball is another point. To maintain control you must always contact the ball such that the triangle is maintained - this is for all strokes (FH, BH, pushes, loops, etc). If the ball is outside this triangle you have to move in a way to always maintain the ball within the triangle. It's way easier to do that if you eliminate arm powered backswings.

Also for the Tom Lodziak video, he doesn't realise it but the biggest difference between him and Liam is that Liam actually uses his whole body for the BH unlike Tom who only uses the arm, you can see the legs and hips visibly powering the shot. The other big difference is that Tom doesn't use his back muscles to pull the elbow clockwise while Liam does. Even if his paddle trajectory looks good, he won't ever come close to the amount of power that Liam has even if he tries to twist his wrist the same way Liam does. This is why the trajectory matters but so does the power sources being used.

 

[NextLevel]

I think the biggest problem for me is the timing. I'm either early or late to the ball. BH strokes have the ball in front of you, and it's a lot harder to judge how close it is to you than when it's to your side like FH strokes. It's even harder because sometimes your own racket obstructs your vision. I'll put more focus on swinging a bit later like Liam there, I think that may help with the vision obstruction issue as well.

Since you are going to spin the ball you will be fine no matter how early or late you are. The contact is a bit on the side so it is a bit thicker when you are early and a bit thinner when you are late. The stroke feels very different from how it looks - it is much safer than you might think as you are making thick contact on the side of the ball to give the ball topspin.. But the backswing will give you enough to take care of it. Just get the backswing right and the elbow positioning relative to the ball correct and the rest will take care of itself with practice. But if you dont practice getting the backswing to point towards you, it is hard to get the easy spin.

 

[NextLevel]

There's a triangle concept you could use to keep all balls within this strike zone with the triangle being defined by your core, the two sides being your 2 arms and the ball is another point. To maintain control you must always contact the ball such that the triangle is maintained - this is for all strokes (FH, BH, pushes, loops, etc). If the ball is outside this triangle you have to move in a way to always maintain the ball within the triangle. It's way easier to do that if you eliminate arm powered backswings.

Also for the Tom Lodziak video, he doesn't realise it but the biggest difference between him and Liam is that Liam actually uses his whole body for the BH unlike Tom who only uses the arm, you can see the legs and hips visibly powering the shot. The other big difference is that Tom doesn't use his back muscles to pull the elbow clockwise while Liam does. Even if his paddle trajectory looks good, he won't ever come close to the amount of power that Liam has even if he tries to twist his wrist the same way Liam does. This is why the trajectory matters but so does the power sources being used.

Pulling the elbow back as part of the full stroke is pretty important. The backswing with the wrist makes it easier to go forward doing so. That said, I suspect that there are players who can get good spin without back swinging as aggressively. I would still argue that backswing is a major part of the stroke but I can be convinced otherwise.

 

[blahness]

Pulling the elbow back as part of the full stroke is pretty important. The backswing with the wrist makes it easier to go forward doing so. That said, I suspect that there are players who can get good spin without back swinging as aggressively. I would still argue that backswing is a major part of the stroke but I can be convinced otherwise.

I had experimented with at least 10 different ways of using the wrist on the BH and I settled on pure supination driven by thumb pressure as the easiest way to produce a lot of topspin which also doesn't hurt the wrist. But regardless of the method used yes the racket pointing backwards during the backswing is almost necessary to get good spin.

 

[NextLevel]

I had experimented with at least 10 different ways of using the wrist on the BH and I settled on pure supination driven by thumb pressure as the easiest way to produce a lot of topspin which also doesn't hurt the wrist. But regardless of the method used yes the racket pointing backwards during the backswing is almost necessary to get good spin.

I guess one day, we will get to see your backhand. Until then, we will just have to live with your description of it .

 

[blahness]

I guess one day, we will get to see your backhand. Until then, we will just have to live with your description of it .

Sure, maybe one day when I'm feeling like it...

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

@NextLevel
good to see you playing again, for a while, i thought you were giving up.

your BH is where you say you feel more comfortable but I'd say both sides are equally powerful

actually i noticed quite a lot of unforced / unnecessary errors with your BH in the video, but i wouldn't put it on technique, but more on lack of practice. sometimes timing just a little bit off, or misjudging the (lack of) spin, or rushing a bit too much... there is a need for small adjustment. your opponent played you more on your BH than FH actually that's also why we see more miss on this side

regarding your FH, well yeah, its difficult to execute good FH without using 100% of your legs. example 15m16 after missing youre making shadow strokes but i don't think it was the form of FH the problem but you couldn't move enough and fast enough to make enough space to catch this ball coming to your middle in good conditions.

on the following point, he's receiving with a long push in straight line to your FH. the ball is clipping the net, but even without it, i could feel you're in trouble because to play those balls better, need to lower the body more to brush the ball.

Your opponent didn't play a lot of these kind of pushes, but i could imagine a more experienced guy could insist more with long pushes to (wide to) your FH. in these cases, i think maybe you should base your game more on serving no-spin / topspin / mid-long, instead of underspin, where you invite the other guy to open the game and you counter, or you get a 3rd ball easier to attack if the guy flips or pushes it back.

---
IMO your opponent doesn't look better than you on the video despite his win.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks for the kind words, Takkyu. I trained a lot of forehand the past 7 years and I have played matches where people tell me my backhand is bad but my forehand is good, or that I have balance, so your POV is not unknown to me. I did some work to change my backhand 3 years ago and my conclusion is that my old technique, which I am now trying to return to with a few improvements was better.

Yes, a lot of my game is patchwork to cover other patchwork with the hopes of getting balls I can hit hard, but if I am forced to move, my level drops considerably. Hopefully people will continue to jam me with pushes. After all, my improvement is tied to adaptation to progressively increased loads. It will force me to adapt and find solutions and that is where the fun is in table tennis.

This was one of my better matches against my opponent - usually it isn't close.

 

[dingyibvs]

I don't really wanna start another equipment thread so I'll just ask it here.

Anyhow, my FH D09c of 1 month is now showing pretty significant wear. Now that I'm doing more FH training I expect this trend to continue, and I'm not sure a sheet can last me longer than 2 months. I usually play/train ~15 hours a week and I loop fairly hard on the FH side. That's quite significant expenses, so I'm considering switching to something a little more affordable.

I'm thinking about trying out H3P, and I'm OK with boosting. You guys have seen some videos of my trainings, would you guys recommend blue or orange sponge or does it not really matter for me? How many layers of booster would you recommend? My issue with unboosted H3 is not so much about its speed, I think I'm using too fast of a setup as it is, it's really that I just get no feel of the ball. So I really just need enough boost to alow me to feel the ball well. I'm thinking 2 moderate layers should suffice. I have some Seamoon already, and I think I'll get some FTL as well to compare.

 

[blahness]

I don't really wanna start another equipment thread so I'll just ask it here.

Anyhow, my FH D09c of 1 month is now showing pretty significant wear. Now that I'm doing more FH training I expect this trend to continue, and I'm not sure a sheet can last me longer than 2 months. I usually play/train ~15 hours a week and I loop fairly hard on the FH side. That's quite significant expenses, so I'm considering switching to something a little more affordable.

I'm thinking about trying out H3P, and I'm OK with boosting. You guys have seen some videos of my trainings, would you guys recommend blue or orange sponge or does it not really matter for me? How many layers of booster would you recommend? My issue with unboosted H3 is not so much about its speed, I think I'm using too fast of a setup as it is, it's really that I just get no feel of the ball. So I really just need enough boost to alow me to feel the ball well. I'm thinking 2 moderate layers should suffice. I have some Seamoon already, and I think I'll get some FTL as well to compare.

Based on your stroke, I think you'll love Hurricane 8-80, the 38 deg version - it's dirt cheap and the dwell time is enormous like 09c, so is the spin production. I reckon it lasts longer than 09c too. I'm a 09c hater now lol, I reckon Butterfly got way too greedy and put in some "planned obsolescence" in their rubbers.

 

[dingyibvs]

Based on your stroke, I think you'll love Hurricane 8-80, the 38 deg version - it's dirt cheap and the dwell time is enormous like 09c, so is the spin production. I reckon it lasts longer than 09c too. I'm a 09c hater now lol, I reckon Butterfly got way too greedy and put in some "planned obsolescence" in their rubbers.

I tried the 37 degree version, and it doesn't have quite the dwell of the 09c or a boosted H3. When the incoming spin is high, you really feel the 09c dragging the ball forward. I'm also concerned about QC from the regular commercial DHS rubbers as the hardness can vary quite a bit from batch to batch.

 

[blahness]

I tried the 37 degree version, and it doesn't have quite the dwell of the 09c or a boosted H3. When the incoming spin is high, you really feel the 09c dragging the ball forward. I'm also concerned about QC from the regular commercial DHS rubbers as the hardness can vary quite a bit from batch to batch.

Hmm I think the 38 deg version is better in all aspects. I tried the 37 deg version and it wasn't that good either. Boosted H3 and 09c is a pretty high bar to meet tho - I think Hurricane 8-80 is sort of 90% there only...

 

[Richie]

So unfortunately, no time to edit till next Sunday. But here is a match against the guy I struggle to beat and who I train with at his place.

It's amazing you can get this power even with your knee issues, you've worked around the problem nicely. Of course, it does put a bit more pressure on timing. Your FH and BH look quite balanced to me.

Playing closer to the table like this is how I "should" play