Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

I agree that playing against unfamiliar opponents such like LP choppers or LP pushers would be the most difficult challenge with this racket. i haven't done that yet.


i tried a bit short game with the coach yday, and it wasn't bad.

but i agree that it feels like chiquita (or reverse-chiquita) are easier to execute than short receive so the game pattern will change. Game plan sounds good to me

The balls against which im most uncomfortable is the (fast) long knuckle ball where a mistouch puts the ball out of the court. I have to be active with spin for it. im slow with sloppy footwork when the ball is coming to my middle / middle FH on a serve or long push.

--
without any regards to my bat, another theme i'm currently working on is to be more agressive after my own long push. I noticed that if i push too mechanically im getting too passive, and if that happens, ive got a good chance to miss a block against a slow spinny loop or too slow to react after a long push, which usually comes fast with no/little spin.

OTOH, if i try to make that long push with my own rhythm, deciding at the last moment to push, giving good quality on it, and commit myself to attack hard if a push is coming back, then even if the opponent is attacking first, or tries to surprise me, i find out that i react quicker that way, and if indeed a push is coming, my chances of killing it are much higher this way.

I'm working hard on this pattern because thats often what my opponents do to me in match, and its frustrating ! so i want to reverse the roles now...

Yes those long no spin balls have to be looped with really small spinning strokes. For me mainly it is in the forearm and fingers. And the speed has to be borrowed from the incoming shot. But I guess I play against pips quite a bit so I'm no stranger to fast no spin shots.

Imo key for long push is to disguise the placement well and the recovery footwork to go back immediately and quickly (via left foot). If you're still too close to table when opponent is looping with good quality it's really hard to control the block/counter. But if you make the first block/counter consistently you can enter the topspin rally.

I'm trying out your idea of looping to produce sideunderspin using a more reverse pendulum movement (I used to think it's more of a hook serve movement, but reverse pendulum makes a lot more sense)

 

[ben1229]

It's pretty damn fast when you hit it hard, and I want to loop hard all the time. Feels great for the BH now, but I'm having some trouble controlling it on the FH side due to the increased power on that side. Could also be because I'm out of practice on that side.

I think I'm gonna focus on combined FH/BH practice for the next 2 weeks, set my BH motion so I don't have to think about it. Then I'll focus on the FH next month and see if I can tame this beast.

You hit it too hard , that will slow your transition, I think my max power on fh it is like 60% maybe? BH like 70%? So easier to swap from BH to fh ,fh to bh.

 

[dingyibvs]

You hit it too hard , that will slow your transition, I think my max power on fh it is like 60% maybe? BH like 70%? So easier to swap from BH to fh ,fh to bh.

I like to do about 80% on FH and 70% on BH. You hit the ball later on the FH side, so there's more time for recovery. Opportunity balls get close to 100% on both sides.

 

[Der_Echte]

Heh, if I didn't spend so much on the W968 and so averse to changing my setup I'd be tempted to move back down to a slower one!

I need to introduce you to my friend Ali who i help out... he now has 4-6 of the 968 and is very happy with them.

It is hiz funds and anyone can use their funds for any lawful and moral purpose without any harassment from Der_Echte.

Actually, if you get his age and have a good occupation making enough to spend a little on yourself, why not if you sacrificed all your life?

 

[Der_Echte]

You hit it too hard , that will slow your transition, I think my max power on fh it is like 60% maybe? BH like 70%? So easier to swap from BH to fh ,fh to bh.

I would argue that time invested on a repeatable compact stroke at the table is way worth more than going slow all the time or afraid to hit hard.

I think @dingyibvs will develop into one of those adult players who can play fast repeatedly in rallies with spin and not be afraid. I really believe he will be better at this down the road more than 90% of those around him.

 

[blahness]

I need to try that out as the transition shot. I like to back up to mid distance, but need something to handle the transition shot in between the 1st 3 balls and the mid distance.

Yeah, without that transition shot, sudden punches or switches down the line from the opponent are almost impossible to loop back. This was the camel that broke the straw for me too which led me to learn this shorter FH swing (with bat high). I was trying to be like ZJK and forcefully trying to reverse loopkill all these sudden switches down the line and I looked cool for 25% of the time but really 50% of the time I was basically missing it, and the other 25% I didn't miss but I looked like a fool when he blocked it to my wide BH.

The pattern that kinda destroyed me was FH pendulum serve to my wide BH to induce my chiquita, then sudden fast switch down the line to my wide FH - I try to FH powerloop it (probably 50-50), and then it gets blocked to my wide BH and then its gg after that. I lost countless points to this pattern up to the point I didn't want to initiate the chiquita from the wide BH serve receive anymore.

But with the shorter swing FH close table loop/counter - I was getting to those balls earlier and could continue in the topspin rally from close table (even managing to do cross court counters to his wide FH to punish his down the line switch).

I still can do the full straight arm loopkill if I have the time - the compact close table stroke is just another tool that's very nice to have.

 

[Der_Echte]

Yes, the slower, larger and newer gen of ABS ball makes it real damn easy to do a lot of things related to attacking under or top spin... so we see much more BH flipping strong, much more countering of that flip, and more countering of that counter... this newer ball makes it easier to do that and increasingly lower and lower levels of TT players are learning to attack like this...

one hand one could say this is bad... lower level players should not be rambo...

one hand says it is GOOD as it is forcing everyone to be uncomfortable and develop their TT game and evolve it for the better or go down in level to the younger or more adaptive adults.

This is a proper natural order and if the younger players can do it better, more power to them.

 

[Der_Echte]

If those younger players consistently lose to fat old LP players with only one step footwork on their good days, then let those young players cry a river and complain about it on youtube and internet table tennis forums until such a time that they actually train, adapt, and overcome..

 

[dingyibvs]

Yeah, without that transition shot, sudden punches or switches down the line from the opponent are almost impossible to loop back. This was the camel that broke the straw for me too which led me to learn this shorter FH swing (with bat high). I was trying to be like ZJK and forcefully trying to reverse loopkill all these sudden switches down the line and I looked cool for 25% of the time but really 50% of the time I was basically missing it, and the other 25% I didn't miss but I looked like a fool when he blocked it to my wide BH.

The pattern that kinda destroyed me was FH pendulum serve to my wide BH to induce my chiquita, then sudden fast switch down the line to my wide FH - I try to FH powerloop it (probably 50-50), and then it gets blocked to my wide BH and then its gg after that. I lost countless points to this pattern up to the point I didn't want to initiate the chiquita from the wide BH serve receive anymore.

But with the shorter swing FH close table loop/counter - I was getting to those balls earlier and could continue in the topspin rally from close table (even managing to do cross court counters to his wide FH to punish his down the line switch).

I still can do the full straight arm loopkill if I have the time - the compact close table stroke is just another tool that's very nice to have.

Yea that's what caused me to develop my BH. I just can't reliably get to that shot when I pivot to loop from my BH side. If I start recovering to the middle of the table, most of the blocks will be heading to my BH side and I'm screwed. If I don't recover then I won't get to that shot to the wide.

I think my issue with those close to the table shots is that my stroke is TOO compact. I'm playing like I still use the TBALC and T05s. My current setup has much higher dwell and need a bit more follow through. If I follow through forward a bit more, at least in practice, my accuracy gets a lot higher. Away from the table I always had a bigger motion, now on the BH side as well, so that's never been an issue and in fact seems to be a problem.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, the slower, larger and newer gen of ABS ball makes it real damn easy to do a lot of things related to attacking under or top spin... so we see much more BH flipping strong, much more countering of that flip, and more countering of that counter... this newer ball makes it easier to do that and increasingly lower and lower levels of TT players are learning to attack like this...

one hand one could say this is bad... lower level players should not be rambo...

one hand says it is GOOD as it is forcing everyone to be uncomfortable and develop their TT game and evolve it for the better or go down in level to the younger or more adaptive adults.

This is a proper natural order and if the younger players can do it better, more power to them.

I like it, I feel like that allows a more balanced FH/BH game, thus justifying my efforts spent on developing my BH I used to want to play more like RSM or ML when his BH was weak, but now I wanna play like WCQ!

 

[Der_Echte]

I like it, I feel like that allows a more balanced FH/BH game, thus justifying my efforts spent on developing my BH I used to want to play more like RSM or ML when his BH was weak, but now I wanna play like WCQ!

Yes, if you slow down and not try to do everything too rushed, you can really play surprisingly strong on many shots.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, if you slow down and not try to do everything too rushed, you can really play surprisingly strong on many shots.

That's what I noticed on Tues. I played one of the better attackers at the PH club, and for whatever reason all of a sudden I was no longer panicky when I'm attacked on the BH side. At first when when he attacked I could calmly block or counter it back, but later on I started just counter looping when I get a bit of space and I was shocked that I could generate such quality shots even against his loops. He likes to pivot when I start repeatedly attacking his BH, and turns out I could loop harder and better with my BH than he could with his FH!

I first got a hint of that the session before, when I played at the Pleasanton club. It was also the first time I began playing some BH shots without thinking how to execute it. I was playing one of the hardest loopers at any club, and one time he looped to wide BH and I just swung at it instinctively and it almost landed. I was surprised by how good and controlled it felt, like if I didn't basically give up on the play and actually tried to land it with proper form I could've landed it. I'm definitely gonna try that a bit more.

I think that perhaps, as long as it's not a very committed loop drive or a very spinny brush loop and I have good space, I might be able to counter loop those balls more often than not.

 

[dingyibvs]

I've also started training with a modified technique for body usage on the BH side. I'm now still using my left hip to find the ball 3 dimensionally, which IMO helps with the backswing, but I'm using what @blahness advocates re: focusing on the legs during the forward swing. Power starts from the kick from the feet, so thinking about it that way allows me a more smooth forward swing.

I always found the forward swing part a bit awkward before, trying to match the hip with the intended trajectory of the ball, it didn't seem natural. I think it's because when I do that, I basically moving my hip first and leg second to balance the hip, which ruins the whip motion and weight transfer (more from left to center than left to right for the BH shot). Now, I just kick with my foot and tense my body up just like on the FH side, and let the rest take care of itself.

So now it goes, retract my left hip and try to match it laterally and height-wise to the ball, then kick the left foot/leg in the intended direction and tense the core up. It works for shots to my middle or down the line as well. Those shots have less left to right trajectory and more back to front. I don't have to adjust my "hip rotation" to compensate for the less left-right component now, I just kick my leg in the intended direction which will be more forward. Kicking in the same direction as the shot is a lot simpler and replicable.

 

[blahness]

I changed to new D05 sheets on both sides lol. It played just terrible lol. The main problem is that it's way too tacky (weird, it appears it became tackier than what I used to have?! I remember only D09c had such tackiness). My shots all didn't work much because it ate the incoming spin full on compared to my 8mth D05s. Still came close due to my serves. But my shots especially loops were pretty much not working well - it's too much of an adjustment.

I finally know how to produce really heavy sideunderspin with a FH "loop" lol and maintain good control. @Takkyu_wa_inochi was spot on, the correct feeling is exactly like serving reverse pendulum. I got it almost immediately after applying the advice. Hard to use against matches though because it is most effective against half long serves only. It's not that great against fast long serves and possibly unusable for short serves (I actually did a FH chiquita against a short serve during the match using this movement?! This could be investigated a bit further).

 

[blahness]

I also learnt how to go down the line easily against a fast BH pendulum serve (both sideunder and sidetopspin) with a stroke that has no backswing, thanks to my penhold training partner. It's all about having the correct angle and not trying to be a hero on the stroke, just focusing more on placement.

With this I can get a decent stroke going along even if I initially guessed wrong on the serve placement.

 

[dingyibvs]

Had a not so great practice session today. I was just too tired, I think from the long practice session yesterday at home which focused on body and leg use on both sides. Idk how the pros can practice 5 hrs a day 6 day a week

The plus side is that I'm basically not even thinking about the BH opening loop anymore. I can't place it as well as the FH loop, but consistency is just as good and quality is solid too. The guy I practiced against today has very spinny loops, so can't really counter loop on the BH side at my level yet. But I can block them reasonably well when I'm a step away from the table and eventually create opportunities to counter attack.

There are a few issues I noticed about my game. First is that when I have a long service return, I back off the table a little too quickly. Many opponents would do a spinny loop, and they'd dip too quickly for me to counter loop. I think I need to back off in smaller increments as the rally gets faster.

Second is that I'm having some issues against fast services down the line to my BH side. My opponent today was a lefty, so those happened fairly often. I think I need to take a step back with my left foot in that situation and kick off of it to loop with my BH.

Third is that in game situations I often get stuck in one stance, which makes it difficult to use my body properly when the ball comes to the opposite side of my stance. Obviously that's not possible when the rally is fast, but I'm not adjusting against slower balls either. I need to incorporate some drills that make me pivot left and right so I can quickly get into the proper stance to take advantage of opportunity balls.

 

[Emin]

My general understanding of how we ( ideally ) wanna play TT in between shots:

1. Anticipation:
You internally predict the next incoming ball.
Mostly instinct, experience and general feeling.

2. Realization and split-second decision making ( optimally Very very fast, immediate):
You see the ball thats coming, based on that you instantly and spontaneously make an intuitive decision on what shot to play
Generally: What type of Shot is the currently the best one!
Its based on many factors like:
- What am I capable of doing?
- What is my opponent good/bad at?
- What shot wins me the point most likely (in a match)
- Or "Just Backhand loop to corner" ( in training)
- Offensive, Defensive, Placement, speed etc.
- Past Experience, how much risk etc.
- ...
All of this is largely internal, subconscious and very fast.
You dont actually think in words during rallies, mostly quick cues, feelings and automatic reactions and instincts of your body and mind (impact of training and preparation).
If you know that you are capable of hitting a good backhand loop and you trained your mind and body to act accordingly, it will come in here.

3. The preparation for your shot based on your decision and your goal for your shot.
No tension, only in the necessary body parts.
Moving your feet, arm and wrist backswing, lowering Center of gravity, Hip rotation etc.
Also automatic and impulsive not consciously thought about ( training ).
If only very very slightly.

4. The actual Execution of the shot.
The only thing that should be in your mind right now is the shot that youre about to play with an internal association with where its speed, spin, placement etc. is and the feeling of the shot( Internal and subconscious, not contemplating about it, should be instinctive).
And you should have total confidence that youre gonna make the shot, no hesitation or looking at the ball flying to see if it lands.
For the brief duration of when you think youre gonna hit the ball you tenses your body up.
Thats where sometimes the weird faces come from when someone hits a loop or does a serve ( i do that too).
You ( ideally ) dont consciously adjust your technique or actively think about it during this process.

5. Relax:
Relax your body, so that only the necessary muscles should be activated again ( legs, abs and the normal rest of course).
6. Recover from the shot and get ready

7. Repeat Step 1


Some important notes:
In order for this to work optimally, your should not hesitate about your technique at all.
Full confidence through out everything, no doubts.
The execution should be a very very brief moment only where you are tense.
Being tense leads to bad decisions, actions and feelings.
Thats where training comes in:
teaches your mind and body the movements and techniques
gives you confidence
Training is the place for adjusting techniques and working on some of the steps, matches where you wanna win, all of this should work like clockwork.

Common issues:
Sometimes people are stuck in the execution of the shot, thinking about adjusting their shot and technique.
Not having confidence in themselves, doubting the outcome and not going over to the other steps which are often way more important.

If you want to figure out a problem or work towards a solution that regards the implementation into your game, then this is a good blueprint to start working on.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The pattern that kinda destroyed me was FH pendulum serve to my wide BH to induce my chiquita, then sudden fast switch down the line to my wide FH - I try to FH powerloop it (probably 50-50), and then it gets blocked to my wide BH and then its gg after that. I lost countless points to this pattern up to the point I didn't want to initiate the chiquita from the wide BH serve receive anymore.

But with the shorter swing FH close table loop/counter - I was getting to those balls earlier and could continue in the topspin rally from close table (even managing to do cross court counters to his wide FH to punish his down the line switch).

I still can do the full straight arm loopkill if I have the time - the compact close table stroke is just another tool that's very nice to have.

BH flick to center of table or FH side
if the ball comes FH side back to you, just counter / if it is BH side, then guide the ball to the BH side.
This way, you have taken out of the 3~5 ball advantage of the server
Of course you can drop the ball short if it is an underspin serve and get the opponent to initiate a long push for you, but what I like to say is, the counter is actually a very good shot to make use of. Some times, you could send the ball higher to initiate your opponent to attack you and your win shot is waiting for that counter to blast back on the bounce. Ball comes back, you continue going FH for 2 or 3 times to create that angle and power.

 

[blahness]

BH flick to center of table or FH side
if the ball comes FH side back to you, just counter / if it is BH side, then guide the ball to the BH side.
This way, you have taken out of the 3~5 ball advantage of the server
Of course you can drop the ball short if it is an underspin serve and get the opponent to initiate a long push for you, but what I like to say is, the counter is actually a very good shot to make use of. Some times, you could send the ball higher to initiate your opponent to attack you and your win shot is waiting for that counter to blast back on the bounce. Ball comes back, you continue going FH for 2 or 3 times to create that angle and power.

Yes, my problem with my FH is that I had either a weak af counter, or a very strong loopkill with no gears in between. I've recently been trying to change that - to have a stronger short stroke FH quick counter as a middle gear to deal with faster balls. Tbh I really dig how Timo Boll does it, I think he has one of the best close table FH counter.

 

[Der_Echte]

Had a not so great practice session today. I was just too tired, I think from the long practice session yesterday at home which focused on body and leg use on both sides. Idk how the pros can practice 5 hrs a day 6 day a week

Hi @dingyibvs , you are relatively young and you see this with you... I am approaching 60 with 30 yrs military wear and tear on joints and body and i feel it too.

It isn't an excuse, it is reality and how body and mind works.

One can only go so far on endorphins and adrenaline. You can ask Carl and Next level how somehow I always manage to defy physics and perform when I visit NYC... by all rights I should be so totally flat and slow and crappy.

What you have shared is true. After a day or three of hard exertion, one simply cannot continue at the same intensity. Just isn't gunna happen. The mind works differently too. You just do not respond to the same stimuli the same way, often nowhere near as effectively. It is simply reality.

You have the same fighting spirit and attitude as me, I wanna win even in checkers. I set high standards and feel i MUST achieve them and am very critical of myself when I do not... it is a form of self accountability, but it should be balanced with reality and a longer developmental perspective.

You will have many see-saw periods... what you look for is how you respond and perform compared to months and years ago... how your quality and decisions improve... those translate later to points, games, and matches won.