Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Der_Echte]

You just had to FH loop his serves to win against these players. Show no mercy and really give them the max topspin. His serves (BH pendulum and FH tomahawk) all turn anticlockwise (from your perspective), and your normal FH loop movement is naturally anticlockwise too, so you just need to ride the sidespin. If it is backspin just loop it upwards more and if it is topspin loop it forward and even downwards if necessary.

It is way easier to control the FH loop than to push a long sidetopspin serve.

One trick for these anticlockwise serves is to use FH loop a lot more (say like 80+% of the time) and not BH (unless it is basically near the BH corner). Even balls to your middle will actually turn right and head towards your ideal FH loop area.

But of course the other hard part is footwork to get to the ideal FH looping position. There is no need to push unless your opponent proves that he can serve short (even then you don't actually need to push, you can do other much more disgusting stuff like sideswipes and dead flicks)

I hear you, but that is a way to lose a lot of points needlessly. (and that is what such an opponent thrives on) If the opponent has good serves (meaning you as receiver cannot read them well) WHY... WHY... WHY is it a good idea to be 100% pre-dispositioned attack them ??? These are lower percentage chances that APPEAR to be no brainer high percentage.

If the opponent cannot or will not attack your underspin or dead receive... then you know what you put on the serve you just received and have a much more predictable ball to attack... it makes a lot more sense to increase your percentages when you want to be aggressive... Attacking less of the opponent's long serve is MORE percentage attacking chances for you as receiver. Attack a few of them to see if you read opponent right, but not the majority is my suggested tactic vs such an opponent.

 

[blahness]

I hear you, but that is a way to lose a lot of points needlessly. (and that is what such an opponent thrives on) If the opponent has good serves (meaning you as receiver cannot read them well) WHY... WHY... WHY is it a good idea to be 100% pre-dispositioned attack them ??? These are lower percentage chances that APPEAR to be no brainer high percentage.

If the opponent cannot or will not attack your underspin or dead receive... then you know what you put on the serve you just received and have a much more predictable ball to attack... it makes a lot more sense to increase your percentages when you want to be aggressive... Attacking less of the opponent's long serve is MORE percentage attacking chances for you as receiver. Attack a few of them to see if you read opponent right, but not the majority is my suggested tactic vs such an opponent.

Imo pushing a long heavy sidetopspin serve is actually even lower percentage shot than looping. Now chopping works but a lot of ppl can't do it properly. For me looping it is a higher percentage shot and also more deadly. I basically bully pushers with long fast serves with wildly varying spin.

The other problem is that after a push, the opponent can do too much, they can loop or push it wherever they want. Even if they push, you have to decode the spin on their push which can also vary wildly (last time I lost to a chopper where I couldnt read the spin on his push at all - it was just randomly ultra heavy backspin or dead to even mild topspin - all with similar movement). Whereas with a loop they can pretty much only give back a dead or long topspin ball.

 

[dingyibvs]

So my training partner recorded a few points of my match earlier this week against this 21-2200 player. Last time I played against him he was using SP on his BH, and I did alright. He's now using some sort of medium pips that act kind of like anti. Every ball coming back had was kinda dead and I didn't really know how to deal with it. Anyhow I saw a bunch of things I need to improve.

First, tactically, I'm generally pretty bad. It's probably from a lack of experience, so I don't have a lot of past opponents to draw from when playing against new equipment, rubbers, etc. I think next time I play against him I'm gonna BH serve from the middle, focusing on a tight service and try to play a balanced game. My regular services sucked to begin with the new racket, and it was too easy for him to flick to get me out of position with balls I'm not familiar with.

Second, technically, I need to shorten my swings on both sides, and focus my power generation. In matches I'm too "loose", with a lot of wasted motion. I also need to maintain footwork when the pace of play is slow. Seems like I having some issues restarting my feet when I play a weak return and need to wait for the opponent's stroke.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Today was the annual qualifying tournament to represent my "district" of Tokyo in the 50+ category. (There are 23 ku and 39 shi, making a total of 62 "districts." What is administratively called Tokyo is more like Greater Paris, not just Paris proper.) After the qualifiers, there is an inter-district team tournament.


Participation in my age category was very small, with only 6 players present. The level of 4 of the other players was quite low, so after easily winning 2 group stage matches and a semifinal, I found myself in the final against my buddy E whose (unofficial) ranking points is like 250 above mine.


In practice matches, I lose to him 80-90% of the time, including 1 set to 10 just two days ago (1-3, 0-3, 0-4). However, in competition, I am 10 times more motivated and focused and i have a better record (2W4L). Since I had been feeling good all week and even yesterday, I was actually very confident—especially because E consistently struggles mentally in competition. We know each other extremely well, which completely evens out the level. In matches, he usually catches others off guard with his long, heavily spun serves, but I know how to return them. During rallies, it’s 50/50 if the ball goes to the forehand, but I have the advantage in backhand diagonal exchanges.


Right from the first point, I didn't hold back, letting out a loud tchoooo! and kept doing it throughout the match. It put me in a trance-like state that I maintained the whole game. E was very nervous—his serves had less spin and depth than usual. His ball placement was predictable since we know each other so well. Despite making significant progress with his backhand in practice recently, he didn’t dare use it even once the entire match [as usual when he’s stressed]!!! so for example, when I serve to his BH, i know he will pivot make a loop drive to my BH but I anticipate with pivot to play FH counter down the line or sometimes attack to his BH and pin him there a little bit more before playing to his FH. [in practice i would play more often a BH instead of pivoting]


I played a fantastic match, taking the initiative about 80% of the time. I returned his serves very well, which I knew was the key to beating him. I managed to play "champagne" table tennis the whole match—taking risks, playing creatively, and going for my shots. Taking the initiative isn’t always enough, as he defends very well, but I was sharp throughout the match. I won 3-1 (11-9, 14-12, 7-11, 11-4).


The second set was the turning point—I came back from 7-10 with a solid return and then served two short, knuckle serves, knowing he dislikes them to get easy 3rd balls. During the money time, he got flustered by a let call on his serve, which I netted (after the umpire called let). In the third set, he finished strong as we were tied at 7-7. However, I got off to a great start in the fourth set and pulled away for good.


I felt a bit sad for him because he lost this same match once again—against someone he beats 90% of the time in practice. Even though I was glad he didn’t apply the advice I’ve given him to avoid these repeated letdowns, I still felt bad for him. But at the same time, I was thrilled with my performance. And for the first time, I’ll get to play in the inter-district competition [E has already played it in previous years].

 

[Der_Echte]

Imo pushing a long heavy sidetopspin serve is actually even lower percentage shot than looping. Now chopping works but a lot of ppl can't do it properly. For me looping it is a higher percentage shot and also more deadly. I basically bully pushers with long fast serves with wildly varying spin.

It's about context. The information given was missing a lot of attacks vs long serves. Why piss away points?

I think my comment was about another member's situation.

In your context, if you are able to consistently loop a long serve... and keep the advantage or get winners, than attacking is a good choice.

The context from my comment was a certain member had an opponent who did NOT attack anything... AND that opponent's serves were troubling him.

So a logical play of percentages is to play safe on serve and attack the next ball which should be much more predictable.

if TTD member blahness is good at attacking long serves and lands enough percentage of them, then that would be a logical response for blahness... but maybe not the member I was addressing vs that specific opponent.

 

[Der_Echte]

@Takkyu_wa_inochi ... there is a HUGE difference between ability in club or practice matches and an officially sanctioned match that matters... a HUGE difference. Your friend needs better mental performance to win in those sanctioned tourney moments.

 

[Der_Echte]

@Takkyu_wa_inochi ... I say this in my last post form personal experience in both needing such mental performance improvement and having made much improvement in that area.

 

[blahness]

It's about context. The information given was missing a lot of attacks vs long serves. Why piss away points?

I think my comment was about another member's situation.

In your context, if you are able to consistently loop a long serve... and keep the advantage or get winners, than attacking is a good choice.

The context from my comment was a certain member had an opponent who did NOT attack anything... AND that opponent's serves were troubling him.

So a logical play of percentages is to play safe on serve and attack the next ball which should be much more predictable.

if TTD member blahness is good at attacking long serves and lands enough percentage of them, then that would be a logical response for blahness... but maybe not the member I was addressing vs that specific opponent.

Even if the opponent does not attack anything but is serving long heavy sidetopspin would you still push it?

Pushing a long heavy sidetopspin is not easy at all and could lead to a lot of pop ups and direct errors.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

@Takkyu_wa_inochi ... there is a HUGE difference between ability in club or practice matches and an officially sanctioned match that matters... a HUGE difference. Your friend needs better mental performance to win in those sanctioned tourney moments.

i know... its really disheartening to see him perform so badly everytime...
so I bought online teaching videos from Enzo Angles (French pro player performing in Major League Table Tennis in US) who were specifically about mental training [around 2 hours of video]. included in the package were 30minutes of 1-to-1 live conversation with Enzo himself !

but I think he hasn't learnt or tried put into practice what he's seen or talked about... he lacks self-discipline and has a huge self-confidence problem [I believe it affects him in other matters of life, not just TT]

 

[Der_Echte]

i know... its really disheartening to see him perform so badly everytime...
so I bought online teaching videos from Enzo Angles (French pro player performing in Major League Table Tennis in US) who were specifically about mental training [around 2 hours of video]. included in the package were 30minutes of 1-to-1 live conversation with Enzo himself !

but I think he hasn't learnt or tried put into practice what he's seen or talked about... he lacks self-discipline and has a huge self-confidence problem [I believe it affects him in other matters of life, not just TT]

Yes, you hit it right, a person has to handle this stuff themselves... some need only a few reps, some need a lot, some never really get there.

It is good you are around to support, it increases his chances.

 

[Der_Echte]

Even if the opponent does not attack anything but is serving long heavy sidetopspin would you still push it?

Pushing a long heavy sidetopspin is not easy at all and could lead to a lot of pop ups and direct errors.

If my opponent does not attack and reasonable return i give him or her, I am not under any pressure or obligation to attack the first attackable ball.

Attacking the very first attackable ball 100% of the time vs such an opponent is a way to give away a lot of points needlessly.

It is higher percentage to attack the ball you clearly can read. If that is the first ball, no problem, but every first ball is not so clearly read.

An open bat push is yes a disaster attempt return vs topspin serve... if opponent does not attack, a simple off the bounce bump is enough to setup a better ball.

It comes down to what a player can read well. it comes down to playing the percentages. What is high percentage for you may not be high percentage for the player we were discussing.

 

[Der_Echte]

blahness sez: I basically bully pushers with long fast serves with wildly varying spin.

While we are discussing tactics in general... your tactic in quotes while serving to players who do not attack your serve is a very effective way to operate.

Why?

- opponent isn't attacking and may miss - give you a zero risk point

- opponent impacts ball at endline or behind it... give you a LOT of time to see the ball and move into position

- if opponent is using friction Long Pips, then you can have a very good idea of what is coming back

- your winning shots from opponent's return put a lot of pressure on opponent to make a quality return... they make more errors trying to be too precise

- your spin variation while they are trying to make perfect return makes them make even more errors

 

[Der_Echte]

i know... its really disheartening to see him perform so badly everytime...
so I bought online teaching videos from Enzo Angles (French pro player performing in Major League Table Tennis in US) who were specifically about mental training [around 2 hours of video]. included in the package were 30minutes of 1-to-1 live conversation with Enzo himself !

but I think he hasn't learnt or tried put into practice what he's seen or talked about... he lacks self-discipline and has a huge self-confidence problem [I believe it affects him in other matters of life, not just TT]

Another positive aspect of tt is that players all must face failure and overcome it. Repeatedly. it builds resilience.

Often, it makes us better people, often if makes us humble people. There are fewer arrogant tt players compared to the amount in rest of society.

 

[dingyibvs]

i know... its really disheartening to see him perform so badly everytime...
so I bought online teaching videos from Enzo Angles (French pro player performing in Major League Table Tennis in US) who were specifically about mental training [around 2 hours of video]. included in the package were 30minutes of 1-to-1 live conversation with Enzo himself !

but I think he hasn't learnt or tried put into practice what he's seen or talked about... he lacks self-discipline and has a huge self-confidence problem [I believe it affects him in other matters of life, not just TT]

Do you think it's more the setting of the matches (club vs tournament) or just playing unfamiliar players? For example, I tend to do very poorly against unfamiliar player, and it doesn't really matter if it's in a tournament or club or practice setting. I have some ideas on why that is.

For one, I'm constantly tinkering with my technique, so I'm constantly using techniques that have not seen all the edge cases. When an unfamiliar player throws new things at it, it takes some time for me to adjust, often taking 1-2 sets at least which tends to put me in a hole to start the match. Secondly, because of this focus on technique, in matches I tend to focus entirely on what I'm doing and how I can improve. How do I read that service a bit quicker? Should I adjust my racket angles to account for the spin, or should I go more forward/upward/etc. instead? Do I need to step up a bit more? And so on and so forth. Take @Der_Echte and @blahness's discussion for example, my focus would've been on how I can loop the long services more successfully. I wouldn't even think about whether I even need to loop them or what other returns may be more uncomfortable for the opponent until after the match.

For example, last week in the club league I played a guy who I last played maybe a year ago, and I had beaten him maybe 4-5 times in a row at the time, but I ended up losing 3-0 with 2 sets ending in deuces. He has some pretty nasty services, but is was worse than me in almost everything else even a year ago let alone now. I used to just return his service and then beat him in the rally, but during our match I had completely forgotten about it and kept trying to kill his long services, with a new setup no less, which resulted in a lot of errors. Maybe next time I'll just try to beat him, but this week I've spent a good amount of time working on how to kill those services

Speaking of working on techniques, boy am I working on a lot right now. Body usage on the BH side (not the wild swing, but the quick hip draw back and thrust) is one, trying to work it into my backswing like @blahness suggested. BH timing is always a work in progress. Stepping up to loop balls with sidespin to the BH side rather than reaching. Trying to shorten up a bit on the FH side. I have a bad habit of taking the ball late when it goes to my wide FH instead of stepping up to cut off the angle, need to correct that. Keep my feet bouncing while waiting for the ball to come back is also important. Lastly, a more consistent grip so my FH and BH grip is almost exactly the same. All the while trying to get used to my new setup. Man, that's a lot to improve on!

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Do you think it's more the setting of the matches (club vs tournament) or just playing unfamiliar players? For example, I tend to do very poorly against unfamiliar player, and it doesn't really matter if it's in a tournament or club or practice setting. I have some ideas on why that is.

Definitely the setting of the matches. because he's been losing many players in competitions that he beats 90%+ of the time in practice matches. its not a skill issue here.

I can see in his body language, facial expression, breath etc... that he's losing to pressure.

I think he always need someone to coach him and reminds him what to do else when he blackouts, without realizing it, he just stops to play, doesn't even TRY a BH anymore, doesn't dare to serve short, doesn't think about varying his placement or changing serve... He's always smiling in practice. but on tournament day, it would insult himself during the match... With stress he gets stiff and his posture gets wrong as well

Regarding familiar/unfamiliar players, actually it plays to his advantage initially, because his long pendulum serve is really strong (very spinny, fast and can do both backspin and topspin with a similar motion). But its also playing AGAINST him, because good players adapt from G2 or G3, and the more the match is going on, the more difficult it is for him. Basically thanks to his serve he gets a lot of easy receives and cheap points and he relies on it too much. Its enough to beat lower ranked players easily but he needs more skills.

[Because we are teammates who play all the time together his serve advantage is gone against me]

---

But there is something important that you say and for example, HE Minghu is saying it also very clearly in his videos (see other threads). there are different levels of mastering a skill. and there is a difference between being able to do a shot consistently in a drill when you know the placement, in a drill when you add some randomness, then full randomness, then in a practice match, then in a real match, then in a real match in the money time and finally in a big match in the money time...

I would say that in my friends case, for example, his desired BH definitely doesn't work in a real match in money time, and maybe not good enough for real match. and thats a skill issue, not a mental issue.

*BUT* my friend also really suffer from mental weakness in matches thats causing disappointment upon disappointment

 

[dingyibvs]

Definitely the setting of the matches. because he's been losing many players in competitions that he beats 90%+ of the time in practice matches. its not a skill issue here.

I can see in his body language, facial expression, breath etc... that he's losing to pressure.

I think he always need someone to coach him and reminds him what to do else when he blackouts, without realizing it, he just stops to play, doesn't even TRY a BH anymore, doesn't dare to serve short, doesn't think about varying his placement or changing serve... He's always smiling in practice. but on tournament day, it would insult himself during the match... With stress he gets stiff and his posture gets wrong as well

Regarding familiar/unfamiliar players, actually it plays to his advantage initially, because his long pendulum serve is really strong (very spinny, fast and can do both backspin and topspin with a similar motion). But its also playing AGAINST him, because good players adapt from G2 or G3, and the more the match is going on, the more difficult it is for him. Basically thanks to his serve he gets a lot of easy receives and cheap points and he relies on it too much. Its enough to beat lower ranked players easily but he needs more skills.

[Because we are teammates who play all the time together his serve advantage is gone against me]

---

But there is something important that you say and for example, HE Minghu is saying it also very clearly in his videos (see other threads). there are different levels of mastering a skill. and there is a difference between being able to do a shot consistently in a drill when you know the placement, in a drill when you add some randomness, then full randomness, then in a practice match, then in a real match, then in a real match in the money time and finally in a big match in the money time...

I would say that in my friends case, for example, his desired BH definitely doesn't work in a real match in money time, and maybe not good enough for real match. and thats a skill issue, not a mental issue.

*BUT* my friend also really suffer from mental weakness in matches thats causing disappointment upon disappointment

I see, losing to the same people he'd normally beat is definitely a mental issue. Ironically I feel like my focus on my own technique is helpful in this regard. There's no mental space to worry about other things.

The point about different levels of application of a skill is very right. I try to learn those things in order, which can be a long process. Luckily some things carry through regardless of technique, like the ability to judge the speed/spin of the ball and reacting accordingly with good timing.

 

[NetProphet]

I see, losing to the same people he'd normally beat is definitely a mental issue. Ironically I feel like my focus on my own technique is helpful in this regard. There's no mental space to worry about other things.

The point about different levels of application of a skill is very right. I try to learn those things in order, which can be a long process. Luckily some things carry through regardless of technique, like the ability to judge the speed/spin of the ball and reacting accordingly with good timing.

Sorry to butt in here but I couldn't help it.
I so often put myself under too much pressure and just can't relax in tournament or league matches.
I've gotten a bit better at it recently but my approach is actually the opposite of yours, I only focus on the opponent and tactics during matches. And I only think about technique etc when training.
Even on nights where I feel like my technique is off I just wing it at my end and still try to find things the opponent doesn't like. If I start thinking about my technique as well my stress goes through the roof and I get very frustrated.

 

[dingyibvs]

Sorry to butt in here but I couldn't help it.
I so often put myself under too much pressure and just can't relax in tournament or league matches.
I've gotten a bit better at it recently but my approach is actually the opposite of yours, I only focus on the opponent and tactics during matches. And I only think about technique etc when training.
Even on nights where I feel like my technique is off I just wing it at my end and still try to find things the opponent doesn't like. If I start thinking about my technique as well my stress goes through the roof and I get very frustrated.

Perhaps what really matters is simply to narrow the focus so that we stop thinking about the score or the setting?

 

[blahness]

Do you think it's more the setting of the matches (club vs tournament) or just playing unfamiliar players? For example, I tend to do very poorly against unfamiliar player, and it doesn't really matter if it's in a tournament or club or practice setting. I have some ideas on why that is.

For one, I'm constantly tinkering with my technique, so I'm constantly using techniques that have not seen all the edge cases. When an unfamiliar player throws new things at it, it takes some time for me to adjust, often taking 1-2 sets at least which tends to put me in a hole to start the match. Secondly, because of this focus on technique, in matches I tend to focus entirely on what I'm doing and how I can improve. How do I read that service a bit quicker? Should I adjust my racket angles to account for the spin, or should I go more forward/upward/etc. instead? Do I need to step up a bit more? And so on and so forth. Take @Der_Echte and @blahness's discussion for example, my focus would've been on how I can loop the long services more successfully. I wouldn't even think about whether I even need to loop them or what other returns may be more uncomfortable for the opponent until after the match.

For example, last week in the club league I played a guy who I last played maybe a year ago, and I had beaten him maybe 4-5 times in a row at the time, but I ended up losing 3-0 with 2 sets ending in deuces. He has some pretty nasty services, but is was worse than me in almost everything else even a year ago let alone now. I used to just return his service and then beat him in the rally, but during our match I had completely forgotten about it and kept trying to kill his long services, with a new setup no less, which resulted in a lot of errors. Maybe next time I'll just try to beat him, but this week I've spent a good amount of time working on how to kill those services

Speaking of working on techniques, boy am I working on a lot right now. Body usage on the BH side (not the wild swing, but the quick hip draw back and thrust) is one, trying to work it into my backswing like @blahness suggested. BH timing is always a work in progress. Stepping up to loop balls with sidespin to the BH side rather than reaching. Trying to shorten up a bit on the FH side. I have a bad habit of taking the ball late when it goes to my wide FH instead of stepping up to cut off the angle, need to correct that. Keep my feet bouncing while waiting for the ball to come back is also important. Lastly, a more consistent grip so my FH and BH grip is almost exactly the same. All the while trying to get used to my new setup. Man, that's a lot to improve on!

Imo, thinking of killing services is not a good mindset to be in as a receiver. It is just too risky. Just looping long serves with great variation and placement is already sufficient to get an advantageous position to leverage off from.

Now I just think of contact points on the ball against different serves and the direction of force to apply. For eg regardless of what stroke i do, against BH pendulum sidetop i have to hook the ball a bit and contact top of ball to have max chances of success. Of course easier said than done when the server is really deceptive about spin and placement.

 

[dingyibvs]

Imo, thinking of killing services is not a good mindset to be in as a receiver. It is just too risky. Just looping long serves with great variation and placement is already sufficient to get an advantageous position to leverage off from.

Now I just think of contact points on the ball against different serves and the direction of force to apply. For eg regardless of what stroke i do, against BH pendulum sidetop i have to hook the ball a bit and contact top of ball to have max chances of success. Of course easier said than done when the server is really deceptive about spin and placement.

Yes, I've found the same re: hooking the ball, but the issue I have right now is that I'm having trouble moving up to meet the ball as it swerves to the side. Without moving up I would have to reach my arm out more and then I'd have trouble hooking the ball. It's again within the broad category of positioning, which relates the other broad category of timing, both of which a lot harder to do on the BH side than the FH side. I'll definitely need to curb my desire to kill services, really need to focus on other ways to make the receive effective than just power.

Some other findings during my recent trainings: I've found that while the body usage on the BH side is great for power generation, it's actually even more important, at least for me, for timing. When the ball is fast, retracting the hip a bit gives me a bit extra space and time. When the ball is slow, kicking forward with the hip first allows me to close the space a bit and a bit extra time before I swing my arm. It'll disconnect the power transfer from the hip to the arm so it's not ideal, but at least I wouldn't have to reach as much.