Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[UpSideDownCarl]

Look, I've got to be honest with you guys: I can play with anyone of any level and be okay. But I am not going to be thinking of it as quality practice or training. There are things you get from it.

But it is not what CJ is talking about. And, I'm sorry, if I loop against a 1500 player, most of the time IT IS NOT COMING BACK: too much spin. If I do that against a beginner, no chance in hell. If I loop against someone my level or higher who is blocking, I will hit 50 in a row if they can block 50 in a row. Even if they are moving the ball around. So, working on a harder shot than that with a beginner makes ABSOLUTELY No sense. Sorry. It just doesn't.

If I flip against a beginner, it is also, not coming back. With a 1500 level player, if I tell him where the flip is going, it could come back some of the time.

What is the point in all of this? Usually, when I hit with a beginner I need to hit as nicely as possible for the ball to come back. Even if I am trying to put the ball back as nicely as possible, and trying not to spin the ball, it often has too much spin for them to handle. CJ has a good idea in keeping a hardbat or an old dead racket in the bag for hitting with beginners. I do that all the time.

With a 1500 level player, I can train with and work on stuff that is valuable. I may be able to work on some things with someone 1200 level: not as many things but I can still work on some valuable things. 1200 level is great for practicing attacking dead balls. Because their pushes often have nothing.

But with a beginner level player, the best thing I think I can do is put the ball back nicely, train them, or feed them multiball. Now in a way, I can work on things like how my feet move, moving to the exact right spot, using hips, multiball feeding technique.... Well, I guess what you can work on really depends on which version of beginner you are hitting with.

But let's not be phony about this. Trying to do real training with a beginner is like trying to get a 6 month old to do physics and calculus or trying to trying to go for 7 minute miles (running) with someone who is paralyzed from the waist down.

Now I can hit with or train someone who is a beginner. But let's be real: I am not going to get training from it.

Ask any real coach if they are able to get training for themselves while they are training someone else who is enough lower level to take lessons with them? Or this question: if all a coach does is help other people get better, will they improve at the same time? Or will training other people without doing your own training ultimately cause your level to drop over time?

I bet Matt Hetherington can answer that in a straightforward way!


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[Shuki]

You're saying you have to give them balls that will come back. Work on the winning shots that would very likely not come back from higher level players as well as lower level. The training doesn't HAVE to be good for them. Hell if they aren't enjoying the training they probably won't want to hit with you for long and you'll get to move on to the higher level players that you truly want anyway

 

[Archosaurus]

You're saying you have to give them balls that will come back. Work on the winning shots that would very likely not come back from higher level players as well as lower level. The training doesn't HAVE to be good for them. Hell if they aren't enjoying the training they probably won't want to hit with you for long and you'll get to move on to the higher level players that you truly want anyway

I think Carl is talking about specifically training FOR the lower player.

The argument is that a much higher level player won't learn much from training a much lower level player because they won't be intending to give them balls that won't come back.

Am I wrong?

 

[Shuki]

I think Carl is talking about specifically training FOR the lower player.

The argument is that a much higher level player won't learn much from training a much lower level player because they won't be intending to give them balls that won't come back.

Am I wrong?

Ahh thanks for the clarification! I had tunnel vision on just trying to improve playing the lower level players, not that he was teaching them!


Maybe when he has a tournament coming up though, he shouldn't be spending his practice session training new players. It's awesome teaching newbies and seeing them improve and seeing how thankful they are for you to be hitting with them. But when he has a tournament in a couple days surely this is one of the times that maybe he shouldn't be teaching them.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah. Let me say it this way:

If I am hitting with someone who is a beginner real loops, even moderate loops, they aren't going to come back. Even me trying not to spin the ball is still going to have too much spin for them to get the ball on the table. If they can't get it on the table, how could I have anything to train against.

If I give full power loops it will be boring as SHITE and there will be NO CHALLENGE WHATSOEVER in it because they will not be giving me balls that have anywhere near enough quality to challenge me or give me anything to work on.

If you like ripping one shot, off an easy ball, and never getting farther than one shot at a time because the person can't give you a ball with enough quality to challenge you, and you can just put it wherever you want, then go have fun. Knock yourself out.

But I doubt most people here would think of that as training.

In fact it might be about as fun and as useful as Siva's Steven Seagal imitating self hit videos with his jugaad return board. Thinking about it, it would probably be more fun and more useful to practice self-hitting+mixed-martial-arts drills.

In real training, ideally, you are working on something that challenges some aspect of your skill set to refine it and make things better. Whether that is your reset and adjustment to random placement, or your third ball, or your fundamentals, or footwork: there are really so many things to work on. A good in/out drill where you push short and the next ball could go short or long to either side so you have to reset and see where the next ball goes....an over the table looping drill, oh, so many things you can work on in training.

And if you are higher level than 1500, trying to train with a beginner where you work on stuff that REALLY challenges you and helps you improve, well, sorry, by definition, the ball quality from a beginner is not high enough level to give a developing player something real to work on.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Even lobbing against a beginner, if you really spin the lobs, that would be like torture me and the beginner because they are not going to come back.

Lobbing dead balls might be entertaining but it would not be training.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

With a beginner I could train them and help them get better. But there is no realistic way I could train and get something useful in training for myself.

I could make it fun. And that is worth it. But that is not training.


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[Shuki]

Yeah. Let me say it this way:

If I am hitting with someone who is a beginner real loops, even moderate loops, they aren't going to come back. Even me trying not to spin the ball is still going to have too much spin for them to get the ball on the table. If they can't get it on the table, how could I have anything to train against.

If I give full power loops it will be boring as SHITE and there will be NO CHALLENGE WHATSOEVER in it because they will not be giving me balls that have anywhere near enough quality to challenge me or give me anything to work on.

If you like ripping one shot, off an easy ball, and never getting farther than one shot at a time because the person can't give you a ball with enough quality to challenge you, and you can just put it wherever you want, then go have fun. Knock yourself out.

But I doubt most people here would think of that as training.

In fact it might be about as fun and as useful as Siva's Steven Seagal imitating self hit videos with his jugaad return board. Thinking about it, it would probably be more fun and more useful to practice self-hitting+mixed-martial-arts drills.

In real training, ideally, you are working on something that challenges some aspect of your skill set to refine it and make things better. Whether that is your reset and adjustment to random placement, or your third ball, or your fundamentals, or footwork: there are really so many things to work on. A good in/out drill where you push short and the next ball could go short or long to either side so you have to reset and see where the next ball goes....an over the table looping drill, oh, so many things you can work on in training.

And if you are higher level than 1500, trying to train with a beginner where you work on stuff that REALLY challenges you and helps you improve, well, sorry, by definition, the ball quality from a beginner is not high enough level to give a developing player something real to work on.


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I like this post. Maybe I don't have strokes that are strong enough that I feel I could just blow through a beginner. And I have no serve return setups really. I don't have specific serves where I expect certain balls.

My rating is only up to 1779. And maybe these are some things that are holding me back. I try to play as balanced a game as I can, constantly changing my playing style. Sometimes fishing, sometimes looping, sometimes chopping. Finding an opponents weaknesses more than having strengths strong enough to blow through opponents. Maybe the way I generally play makes hitting with lower level players much better for me when improving. Dealing with different types of balls all the time and grazing through them can be difficult at times. Or maybe my level simply isn't high enough to have faced the issue of feeling like I can't improve playing someone.


On a side note, still on topic
______________________

Yesterday, I played a player who was obviously new to the game, moderately old (40-50 years old I'm guessing), and was a smasher who simply couldn't hit the table worth a damn but kept going for the smashes. So what I did in an attempt to find a way to improve, was find his sweet spot and hit it there on purpose, then I tried to counter the smash in various ways. First was more of a passive block attempt which was inconsistent as the ball coming at me was dead and I really didn't know where it was going quite yet. But then as I adjusted more to it I started counter driving it back, which he called a counter-smash haha. Then after a bit of that, and understanding where he liked to hit the ball when his body was positioned in different ways I took a step back and worked on counter looping the smashes. (didn't go too well).

Now how often have you guy's simply let someone smash the ball in their sweet spot? I'm not saying lobbing it up for them to smash it, where you'd back up to try to return the smash. I'm saying simply putting it where they're comfortable to give you a killer.

 

[Der_Echte]

Carl and NL have seen enough of me to know. My practice strokes suck such serious rocks Korean coaches gave up on me doing the FH to FH for more than 10 hits.

What I have in my favor is blocking though, I am useful in blocking of BH countering for most players though. I good blocker is a very under-rated value in training.

 

[Archosaurus]

I've played against quite a lot of true beginners, people with barely 10 hours of experience.

I don't think you can improve against them much at all in a meaningful way. My concern right now is getting the proper timing and whip mechanics in place with the right contact, but getting one of those things right against real beginners is just too much to handle.

That said, I have a pretty shoddy short reverse tomahawk sidespin that I'd only pull out as a psy-ops measure to get my opponent laughing uncontrollably and be forced to forfeit the game. It's always fun to show one of those to a beginner and have them stand there baffled, questioning the very nature of the universe and all that is real.

 

[Manish Verma]

I always wondered how top players handles players who plays differently. I mean I always struggle when I find any unconventional player. They do different kind of loops, spin etc. Any suggestion would be helpful.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I always wondered how top players handles players who plays differently. I mean I always struggle when I find any unconventional player. They do different kind of loops, spin etc. Any suggestion would be helpful.

When you find a weird player who gives you stuff that is hard to handle for you even if you feel it shouldn't be, the thing to do is to play them until you can see it, get used to it, and know how to handle it. Like garbage float balls can be annoying and tricky if you aren't used to facing them.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

I like this post. Maybe I don't have strokes that are strong enough that I feel I could just blow through a beginner. ....
My rating is only up to 1779. And maybe these are some things that are holding me back.

I hit with you Shuki. I remember. I might have been coming off a weird eye injury and not playing hard. You were messing around too. Maybe I get more spin than you. But I don't think out levels are different. You do other things well that I don't do well. And your moderate loops are way to much for a beginner to handle. You may like to hit slow, high balls. But you can place them well enough to give someone under a certain level problems.

But if you were hitting offensive strokes and you were not hitting nicely to extend rallies, I can't imagine that you would be able to think of hitting with a BEGINNER to be good training for getting you ready for a tournament.

What you described with the smash guy is exactly the type of thing one CAN do. Feed them to their strength and respond. But let's not confuse that with what would happen in REAL training.

I don't know, I vet my training partners. If I try to train with someone and the training doesn't feel like it is worth it, I don't bother training with them anymore. That doesn't mean I won't hit with them or play with them. But that is not training. In training you work on things that you need to work on for your improvement.

There is this one guy I play with. I haven't for a while because we are both too busy so it has not worked out in such a long time. Now, he is always clowning around. He is always doing ridiculous things. He absolutely doesn't know how to train. Many times I have called him ADD boy because he is so hyperactive and all over the place. But when I hit with him, for me it is still training even though he is like that. But he is a 2000 level with 2200 level strokes maybe 2350 level strokes. So, playing with him is totally worth it and very much training for me.

Anyway, hopefully you get what I am saying.


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[NextLevel]

I always wondered how top players handles players who plays differently. I mean I always struggle when I find any unconventional player. They do different kind of loops, spin etc. Any suggestion would be helpful.

The point always begins with serve and serve return. If an opponent is unconventional, those things become far more important for you to analyze and dictate. If you do the right things, then you may never see the unconventional strokes. If you treat those things as simply trying to put the ball into play, you will struggle as by default, you are letting the opponent into the point on their terms. For example, if an opponent serves long, you can block, hit, loop, chop or push. The best option is usually to loop as this limits the opponent. But let's say you block. This gives the opponent a light spin ball that he can then dictate with. This may or may not be what you want. But don't default into it vs a weird opponent - make sure you want it. Consciously analyze the patterns and use the favorable setups more often and the others as distractions to make your strategy slightly less obvious.

Same thing for you - choice of serve depth, spin and location is a choice. Don't default into it. There is a reason we play beat of 5 or best of 7. You can learn and adapt. If you put through right kind of spin on the ball you can prevent certain things from happening. If someone uses your spin against you, then reduce it on your serves. If someone is using the lack of spin, increase it. Learn to serve wah deception and variation. Even if the opponent is reading your serves, deception still slows them down and makes them hesitate. When you serve obviously and to the same place over and over again, the opponent will get faster and faster in returning your serves.

My favorite example is a backhand shakehand blocker. Many people serve to the backhand and let him set up his game. But if you serve to the forehand and make him use his backhand awkwardly on the forehand side, you pull him out of position and set up the point differently. If you then return the ball to the backhand, then you might get a weak ball because you have made him move. But if you just continue to put the ball to the backhand side, then you let him use his best shot without exposing himself and he may dictate the points all the time. Trivial example, but I see this all the time.

 

[Manish Verma]

I will try. It takes time to get adjusted.

 

[Shuki]

Question time! What if you play an excesively sweaty player, who every time they serve, the ball gets wet. Do you just lose the point since your rubber couldn't grab the ball? Or is it a let? And I mean EVERY time. Maybe you can make an ump request and request that they don't touch it with your hands? Never experience this until recently. Luckily it wasn't in a tournament

 

[Der_Echte]

Good Question,

Play in Syracuse in December?

Bogeyhunter won some cash at the tourney today, I won my group dropping exactly one game in 4 matches (to Duke Nuke 'Em) and lost to Guarav in the A group, so I lost only one match to similar skilled player rated way below me. I would have to defeat Guarav 7 more times consecutively to break even, haha, I never defeated him more than twice in a row. Good luck taking that route.

Gunna hafta make a commitment to be less like Rambo on first ball, stay down lower and use my BH a little more. Going for broke on first chance has a ceiling.

 

[Shuki]

Do any of you go to tournaments with your training partner, enter the same event and then lose to your training partner? This has been the case of all 5 of my tournaments so far. Magically I'm rated higher than him, whether it be that after beating me he moved on and lost to someone low, or just lost to lows in the rr section while still being able to move on.




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[Der_Echte]

NEVER.

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[ttmonster]

In that case, @Shuki you should direct your question to @Der_Echte's training partner

NEVER.

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