Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[ttmonster]

Hey congrats on making it through the headwind to the club ! ...
I don't know if this is going to help you .. but you can give it a shot ... to shorten the swing when close to the table and use the forearm snap what you could do is ask somebody to block close to the table and ensure they block off the bounce so that you get a low and good quality ball .. this is not going to work if somebody blocks the ball to high ... . then just use the forearm snap to do mini loops off the bounce ... and similarly you can try to do mini counters against somebody .. just using mostly forearm snap and moving the feet to follow the ball .. then you can take a half step back and start adding the hip rotation ....

I know this is a a little opposite to the way the coaches build the loop where they suggest you tuck in your elbow , and rotate from the waist and weight transfer .. but this way has worked for me to quickly get into the shorter stroke .. let me know if you get a chance to try it and if it works for you ..

if it works you can try to include it in your warm up routine every time you play ... also if you feel your strokes are not shortening .. .you could try to consciously play with people who play faster ... instead of people who play slower and avoid doubles for a while .. .doubles tend to increase the length of the stroke because there is more time ...

I took the day off yesterday from work. Had to run some errands.

In the sub-freezing cold, if i was at work, it's a no-brainer that I would leave work, take the subway and go to the club. But I was warm and cozy at home. If i went to the club, I would have to walk ~25 mins in sub-freezing temperatures as well as facing the wind making it close to sub-zero Fahrenheit!

"Showing up is 80 percent of life."
~Woody Allen

I fought my mind very hard, and braved the weather and walked to the club!

Hit for 2.5 hrs straight. Club was relatively empty. Seems like a new club opened in Flushing, and perhaps some members went there to check it out.

Hit with K, haven't hit with him in ages. He has improved by leaps and bounds, showing up 5x a week, whereas I took time off for daughter's driving lessons, and recuperate from shoulder soreness. He gave me a few pointers and we worked on my FH loop and FH flick/banana/chiquita.

Perhaps it's the 30+ years break, perhaps I didn't officially learned the FH loop ages ago, perhaps it's old man memory, perhaps I developed bad muscle memory when I unretired from TT ... i am FH looping mostly arm, not engaging my core and legs. I shadow periodically and still struggling to get all the moving parts to act in unison. Been concentrating on SH BH and RPB and once in a while SH BH loo/RPB loop.

As I'm a close-to-the table player and currently using a fast setup, i should be meeting the ball sooner and shortening my stroke. Did some like that. Also used to the longer stroke and a little away from the table and looped some like that. Felt good to loop 80-90%. Still cannot loop slow spinny loops consistently. Need to slow down ... also too conscious of all the moving parts. Need to be subconsciously flow.

Hit with F next. Hit with him one other time. Very steady SH, nice FH loops, nice kick to his loops. Challenging to block/return steadily for him. Like hitting with him. Then my turn to fh loop, like with K, i did both short stroke and long stroke. Last time we hit, club was jam-packed. We were forced to play a match. He couldn't read my serves and was susceptible to side-top serves and I flat-hit many winners. Strokes-wise and consistency, he is at least one level above me.

Looking forward to the next time I hit with F as well as with K.

 

[OhWell]

I fought my mind very hard, and braved the weather and walked to the club!

That's the New York spirit right there! (I did the same. )

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

That's the New York spirit right there! (I did the same. )

Hi OhWell,

Did you settle on one club? or going to various?

LOL Thank you and congratulations to you! I know other parts of the country/world can get colder than NYC, but this is not a competition of which city has the lowest temperature, it's a battle of the mind, my mind specifically ... in what would've been so easy to just stay home and stay warm, I could've rightly rationalized how cold it was and best to stay home.

 

[OhWell]

Hi OhWell,

Did you settle on one club? or going to various?

LOL Thank you and congratulations to you! I know other parts of the country/world can get colder than NYC, but this is not a competition of which city has the lowest temperature, it's a battle of the mind, my mind specifically ... in what would've been so easy to just stay home and stay warm, I could've rightly rationalized how cold it was and best to stay home.

I did settle: Wang Chen! Very affordable, and plenty of friendly people to play with.

That's a great way to put it, a battle of the mind. I grew up in Quebec, so I've seen colder. But a sudden wave of cold like we have now is way more likely to shake my habits out of balance than an expected 3 months of steady cold... This is like a salvo of blazing fast attacks coming from a chopper that had been playing defensively for 3 games in a row!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Hey congrats on making it through the headwind to the club ! ...

Thank you monster! Again, it's not an issue if i went to work as i would be warm on the subway ride from work to the club and just have to walk 3 mins for 3 blocks enduring the cold, but to walk almost half an hour in the wind is no fun.

I don't know if this is going to help you .. but you can give it a shot ...

That's punny!

to shorten the swing when close to the table and use the forearm snap what you could do is ask somebody to block close to the table and ensure they block off the bounce so that you get a low and good quality ball .. this is not going to work if somebody blocks the ball to high ... .

I can ask, however 2 points: 1. i hit with varying levels of players, but mostly my level or a little below me, 2. Carl in 3,2,1 in adjusting to randomness! LOL ... but i get your point.

then just use the forearm snap to do mini loops off the bounce ... and similarly you can try to do mini counters against somebody .. just using mostly forearm snap and moving the feet to follow the ball ..

Right or wrong, I think of this as Chinese way of hitting ... i usually, during warmup of FH to FH, hit flat, i don't add spin intentionally ... one of the coaches at the club (ages ago hit with me) and my friend "K" also, said when hitting regular FH, to add a little spin to it. I do this from time to time, but i generally hit flat.

then you can take a half step back and start adding the hip rotation ....

I know this is a a little opposite to the way the coaches build the loop where they suggest you tuck in your elbow , and rotate from the waist and weight transfer .. but this way has worked for me to quickly get into the shorter stroke .. let me know if you get a chance to try it and if it works for you ..

I don't think i have an issue with the shorter stroke, i just need to really get the timing and used to the tensor rubber ... i'm not a looper by any stretch of the imagination and understand that the game as well as the technology has evolved to the point that TT is about spin. I am slowly easing into it. However, from your advice, I will keep in mind to forearm snap as opposed to the waist rotation when close to the table. I don't forearm snap so much and for now, I'm trying to lightly brush the ball, imparting a little topspin.

if it works you can try to include it in your warm up routine every time you play ... also if you feel your strokes are not shortening .. .you could try to consciously play with people who play faster ... instead of people who play slower and avoid doubles for a while .. .doubles tend to increase the length of the stroke because there is more time ...

Generally no one plays doubles at my club, only recall 1 night in my 2 years of going to this club seeing a doubles match. Possibly due to max capacity of 9 tables out and little room to maneuver for doubles. i think i can shorten my loop stroke, but it's just that i have more fun looping about 1 to 2 steps away from the table. However, that is counter to my close-to-the-table play. I get more of an aerobic workout though when I loop away from the table.

Thank you monster for the tips, i will be mindful of just forearm snap.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I did settle: Wang Chen! Very affordable, and plenty of friendly people to play with.

ack on my old man memory, i now recall you mentioned it either on a thread or in pm. i played for a year at WC. Mostly in the basement and luckily, usually the first table near the staircase. Although if Coach John Z. has a lesson, he will request the table and actually wait until we are finished before taking it. Nice guy and good player.

One time though, my partner and I were kicked off the table, kind of bullied, cos 2 2000+ players wanted to practice and there were 2 lessons going on upstairs and the middle table is a king of the table situation. There was a big tournament coming up and they wanted to practice. Perhaps we weren't bullied, and my partner and I are nice guys, so we relinquished the table and played on one of the 3 cramped tables.

Have you played Rocky yet? Nice guy and steady player! Have you played Jean-Paul yet (lefty SH, double pips or double smooth)? Or Emil (IIRC his name)?

But yeah, in Manhattan, for 20 bucks/month, it's very affordable. Haven't checked out the various Dept of Parks recreation centers in Manhattan or Brooklyn, but they are $100/year if you are 61 or younger. If 62 and older, it's $25. That's why I play at the rec center I play at, plus it's 20-25 mins walk home.

That's a great way to put it, a battle of the mind. I grew up in Quebec, so I've seen colder. But a sudden wave of cold like we have now is way more likely to shake my habits out of balance than an expected 3 months of steady cold... This is like a salvo of blazing fast attacks coming from a chopper that had been playing defensively for 3 games in a row!

Great analogy of the chopper and blazing fast attacks!

Yeah, the battle is always in the mind, not just for table tennis. Anything in Life, it all starts with the mind first.

Fear of public speaking? Shy with asking someone out for a date? bungee jumping? roller coasters? golf? chess? martial arts? a writer writing? an artist painting/drawing? weight loss/gain? etc.

The battle is won in the mind first!

 

[ttmonster]

Hitting flat is okay just at the beginning to get the feeling grooved in , mostly that you are hitting the sweet spot .. its more of a confidence booster .
When my looping game is on and I feel confident I don't get into the spinny mini looping thing ...
But if you are going to play the looping game close to the table you will not be hitting flat strokes unless you are blocking .. so the point is if you want to get used to the sponge and the rubber of tensor rubbers you have to break it down ... one way to break it down is from legs onwards ... weight transfer .. .add hips and finally add the forearm snap ....
but since you are using hand too much , it might be worth while to shorten the swing first and get the touch in on how to spin the ball with the forearm snap ...

 

[NextLevel]

The key to close to the table looping is to be low enough to do it. I am tall and I can do it, so I Guess 95% of people should be able to do it without bending their knees but that is just me.

Again, the principles are the same - hit the ball with a turning stroke. In the beginning, you will miss, but over time, you can groove it easily and take the ball off the bounce. Here is yours truly - too much arm but you don't have to copy me:

You can hit relatively flat with less turn or hit with spin with more turn - it is for me the same stroke. With the hit, I finish lower and don't turn over my forearm and wrist as much - I do it much more gently and slowly.

https://youtu.be/5M1eIw85CD8?t=250

 

[OhWell]

ack on my old man memory, i now recall you mentioned it either on a thread or in pm. i played for a year at WC. Mostly in the basement and luckily, usually the first table near the staircase. Although if Coach John Z. has a lesson, he will request the table and actually wait until we are finished before taking it. Nice guy and good player.

One time though, my partner and I were kicked off the table, kind of bullied, cos 2 2000+ players wanted to practice and there were 2 lessons going on upstairs and the middle table is a king of the table situation. There was a big tournament coming up and they wanted to practice. Perhaps we weren't bullied, and my partner and I are nice guys, so we relinquished the table and played on one of the 3 cramped tables.

Have you played Rocky yet? Nice guy and steady player! Have you played Jean-Paul yet (lefty SH, double pips or double smooth)? Or Emil (IIRC his name)?

Yeah! Basement is still as you describe it! John is indeed very nice, and from what I've seen I like the way he coaches. I might start taking lessons with him..

I know what you mean, some people can be a bit entitled with tables. It's the downside of there being no oversight or rules about using the tables downstairs. Upside is being able to drill shots even when people are waiting instead of only playing games.

Truth be told WC is a messy club; but around here that's not always a bad thing.

----

I'm not great with names, so I only recall J-P of the people you mention. My skills are abysmal, I'm not sure what happened the few times I played him can be called games. I'll keep an eye out for Rocky and Emil!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Yeah! Basement is still as you describe it! John is indeed very nice, and from what I've seen I like the way he coaches. I might start taking lessons with him..

One night, before my partner showed up, i saw Coach John practicing serves in the basement on the first table. We chatted a little, ends up he is very good friends with someone who used to play at my old club, the firehouse back in the 1980's! He asked if i wanted to try to return his serves as he went through buckets and buckets practicing his serves. I thanked him profusely for the opportunity.

Additionally, I took 1 lesson on serve receive with him before I quit WC for LBH. Sadly, i forgot some of the tips due to old man memory great times and fond memories at WC's

I know what you mean, some people can be a bit entitled with tables. It's the downside of there being no oversight or rules about using the tables downstairs. Upside is being able to drill shots even when people are waiting instead of only playing games.

Yeah i loved that you can get a bunch of balls and just drill ... waiting for my partner, i sometimes practiced serves upstairs, but most of the time it was downstairs. Undisturbed, and since it was cramped, it was ok for the multiballs. upstairs, i didn't like no barriers though.

I'm not great with names, so I only recall J-P of the people you mention. My skills are abysmal, I'm not sure what happened the few times I played him can be called games. I'll keep an eye out for Rocky and Emil!

He is tricky and being a lefty like He Zhimen, he can be wicked evil. Emil is tall and blond hair IIRC, a SH and ~2200. Sometimes he hits with Coach John.

Speaking of lefties, I am reminded of one member, Edwin, a SH. He is ~1800-2000. One night, the week of Veteran's Day, no one was there, we must've drilled 60-90 mins on the center table upstairs. At WC's, that is unheard of! He helped my game a lot back then as it was my first year back from a 30+ yrs break as i was rusty, very rusty. I got to hit one other time with him, but as members showed up, we were forced to play a match. I don't recall the exact scores, but I lost. What I do remember is that he said after the match, "You improved!" and I thanked him and explained my rustiness and how he helped me that one night. So I pay it forward, if i hit with partners a little below my level, i do my best to help their game by being steady and let them worked whatever they want to work on. Although, even if Edwin and others didn't do that for me, I would still do it for others.

Ah yeah, "J-P", no one called him Jean-Paul.

#OhMyGuoyuehua !!!

I just recalled Owen, tall Chinese dude, oldschool penholder like me. Unlike me, he was ~1900. We had 1 great session, 2 hrs straight, no one there on an early Friday night.

 

[JeffM]

If you just want to try out , TB ALC is just as good as any ..
I can just tell you my experience with this kind of trying out stuff, if it helps ...
I was playing with ZJK ALC for a while and I completely adapted to it to the point where I was really comfortable with it. And, when I used Viscaria I really felt that it was crisper than the ZJK ALC I had and the sweet spot was larger ...

however, now I have been playing with HL5 and I really like HL5 and feel that it has helped my game , especially because the carbon is a little more inside and the outer ply is Limba which is softer and holds the ball longer . But the power from the carbon kicks in when you hit harder especially when you are little further away from the table ... compared to HL5 ( which is a DHS Blade ) the ALC blades you are looking for has a Koto outer play and the dwell is less but there is a crisper contact and a larger sweet spot ... now since I woke up to the fact that a larger sweet spot is not necessary the best thing for a player who wants to develop technique and consistency .. I have been trying out equipment that tilts in that direction , hence I switched from T05 and ZJK ALC , one by one , to H3 and HL5 .. .

After thinking about what it is and why I am even thinking of trying a new blade, I thought of a reason apart from the curiosity of playing with a butterfly blade. With my current carbonado 145, I'm quite comfortable with it. I feel happy with my control, but I feel I am lacking a little bit on the speed in my loops. I think I can only blame my technique, but I wonder if I would benefit in that aspect with a new blade, say Timo Boll ALC, (or even innerforce ALC)? I understand however that there is always a trade off, in this case, I might lose some control or some dwell time if I make the change.

Just wondering whether I would be able to control it after playing with the new blade for some time.

 

[NextLevel]

After thinking about what it is and why I am even thinking of trying a new blade, I thought of a reason apart from the curiosity of playing with a butterfly blade. With my current carbonado 145, I'm quite comfortable with it. I feel happy with my control, but I feel I am lacking a little bit on the speed in my loops. I think I can only blame my technique, but I wonder if I would benefit in that aspect with a new blade, say Timo Boll ALC, (or even innerforce ALC)? I understand however that there is always a trade off, in this case, I might lose some control or some dwell time if I make the change.

Just wondering whether I would be able to control it after playing with the new blade for some time.

Boll ALC has one of the best dwell of any hard outer ply carbon blade if you have loop driving technique. You may not like how it feels but it rarely has to do with speed.

 

[ttmonster]

I think what Jeff is really asking for is a comparison of Carbonado and TB ALC ... interms of speed , dwell and size of the sweet spot ...

Boll ALC has one of the best dwell of any hard outer ply carbon blade if you have loop driving technique. You may not like how it feels but it rarely has to do with speed.

 

[NextLevel]

I think what Jeff is really asking for is a comparison of Carbonado and TB ALC ... interms of speed , dwell and size of the sweet spot ...

Boll ALC is the most common advanced blade out there. Have never used a Carbonado. He should be answering the question.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think what Jeff is really asking for is a comparison of Carbonado and TB ALC ... interms of speed , dwell and size of the sweet spot ...

Boll ALC has one of the best dwell of any hard outer ply carbon blade if you have loop driving technique. You may not like how it feels but it rarely has to do with speed.

I actually think NL’s post answers the question excellently.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[ttmonster]

I think NL provided a comparison of TB ALC among advanced hard outer ply blades ... Jeff is saying "apart from the curiosity of playing with a butterfly blade. With my current carbonado 145, I'm quite comfortable with it. I feel happy with my control, but I feel I am lacking a little bit on the speed in my loops. I think I can only blame my technique, but I wonder if I would benefit in that aspect with a new blade, say Timo Boll ALC, (or even innerforce ALC)? I understand however that there is always a trade off, in this case, I might lose some control or some dwell time if I make the change. "

so isn't the questoin , is he going to lose some control or some dwell time if he makes the change to TB ALC from Carbonado ?

I actually think NL’s post answers the question excellently.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I actually think he did. “TB ALC has one of the best dwell of any hard outer ply....”

It very well may have more dwell and generate more spin, and therefore have more control than a blade like the Carbonado 145 which has a Limba top ply but no Arylate.

So, what NL said should indicate that the fear is unsubstantiated and there is a reason why so many top pros choose Viscaria or TB ALC which are very similar.

At least how I read the comment, it answered the question quite well.

It does not answer the speed issue or whether the TB ALC or a Viscaria would be good for Jeff. But it answers the essential issue quite directly, at least as I read it.

And certainly both blades are more than fast enough so, Jeff has identified the issue of technique well enough for himself anyway.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[JeffM]

Boll ALC has one of the best dwell of any hard outer ply carbon blade if you have loop driving technique. You may not like how it feels but it rarely has to do with speed.

I think what Jeff is really asking for is a comparison of Carbonado and TB ALC ... interms of speed , dwell and size of the sweet spot ...

I think NL provided a comparison of TB ALC among advanced hard outer ply blades ... Jeff is saying "apart from the curiosity of playing with a butterfly blade. With my current carbonado 145, I'm quite comfortable with it. I feel happy with my control, but I feel I am lacking a little bit on the speed in my loops. I think I can only blame my technique, but I wonder if I would benefit in that aspect with a new blade, say Timo Boll ALC, (or even innerforce ALC)? I understand however that there is always a trade off, in this case, I might lose some control or some dwell time if I make the change. "

so isn't the questoin , is he going to lose some control or some dwell time if he makes the change to TB ALC from Carbonado ?

I actually think he did. “TB ALC has one of the best dwell of any hard outer ply....”

It very well may have more dwell and generate more spin, and therefore have more control than a blade like the Carbonado 145 which has a Limba top ply but no Arylate.

So, what NL said should indicate that the fear is unsubstantiated and there is a reason why so many top pros choose Viscaria or TB ALC which are very similar.

At least how I read the comment, it answered the question quite well.

It does not answer the speed issue or whether the TB ALC or a Viscaria would be good for Jeff. But it answers the essential issue quite directly, at least as I read it.

And certainly both blades are more than fast enough so, Jeff has identified the issue of technique well enough for himself anyway.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Thanks alot guys. Yes, what I was asking about is a comparison of the Carbonado 145 and TB ALC. I was worried about the dwell / control of the TB ALC due to the harder outer layer, but I was reassured by NL that the fear was unsubstantiated.

This puts me closer to getting it. I guess, my final question is whether a harder outer layer will make short game harder to control? As in, whether doing a short push or keeping the ball short / low will be any harder.

Thank you again.

On a slightly off topic, I bought some butterfly A40+ balls in HK, and I've played with it for 4+ hours, still hasn't broke. The ball feels quite good to me. The store owner says it is the newest and some specific ittf competition next year will be using these as well. Has anyone tried A40+ before?

 

[NextLevel]

A40+ is the same as one of the other ABS balls out there from DHS or DFish.

The thing about blades is that power doesn't always come from speed. What kind of shot are you looking for power on? Getting a faster blade usually means you want to block with more pace or counter topspin with shorter strokes. But you run the risk of missing critical spin strokes if your acceleration and stroke don't produce the required friction on certain touch shots and pushes etc.

The Boll ALC tends to hold the ball even though it feels hard to the touch. The thing is that if your short game relies on certain kinds of vibrations from the Blades, it depends on whether they are in the Boll ALC. I found I could push fine with it but the feeling is crisper and requires you to hit the ball a bit more firmly than the brushing feeling of limba. It definitely expanded my understand of spin.

 

[NextLevel]

Grip is a complicated topic, but if you want to play with a neutral grip, it is hard to do better than follow the advice of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi27l74iE10