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So maybe some of you guys know the answer to this, but why the hell do my quads fatigue so easily? Between soccer and TT they can get trained heavily, it's almost constantly sore, yet even with some rest when I play soccer it's my number one limitation. Just a few minutes of playing and my quads start going weak.

I'm thinking that maybe I don't have enough aerobic capacity, and that I need to do some zone 2 training. That's really hard though, as exercises that keep me in zone 2 feel so monotonous, so boring. I tried doing TT for zone 2 but I zoom past it with less than 10 FH shots or involves any decent movement.
Im assuming you're relatively young as you still play soccer so my thoughts would be:
- Overtraining and not taking rest and recovery seriously enough? Do you get enough sleep?
- Blood circulation issues. Not a joke if you think it may be this, get yourself checked out.
- Glutes and Hamstrings not firing properly/doing enough work.
- Dietary deficiency. Do you lack iron or carbohydrate in your diet, can lead to heavy legs.
- Are you drinking enough water? Even a tiny amount of dehydration 'can' lead to significant fatigue.

That's where I'd start anyway.
Easy to work through and see what helps. If you're disciplined and start with more sleep (every night), a bit less heavy training, more water, some more red meat and fruit in your diet every day and can do it all for a month without fail then you're either gonna be fixed or know that it's time to see a doctor/Osteopath/nutritionist or some other expert.
Be interested to hear how you fix this,!
Good luck 🤞👍
 
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@Tony's Table Tennis

Dear Coach,
I notice something, purely empirical of course, I assure you. It seems to me the awesomeness of 3rd ball attack style of yesteryears are rare these days. The powerful serve and super awesome 3rd ball kill of the likes of Ma Lin, Wang Hao et al are not found amongst the new generations. Instead, I notice, again purely empirical observation on my part, to be more of a loopy-loopy rally, sometime going into ten or more strokes.

So, if you may indulge me, what happened? Why has such awesomeness left the game? To be certain, those loopy-loopy rally exchange is also awesome in their own right. It is like one may like to savour braised mee sua noodle, but I crave for the pungent and intense taste of stinky too-foo. It is just not so much available these days.
 
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My knees paid the price on lifting heavy and training intensely in May/June, but I'm coming out of it with a bit of rest. Definitely a lot slower in terms of footwork and power on my shots, but I probably need like 3-4 drill sessions with staying low and getting my spacing on the ball to get back into it. It literally feels like I'm stuck in mud. Staying low enough is so critical for me.

Having said that, getting a lot of compliments on my backhand play by players higher rated/more experienced than me. Wish I could say the same for my forehand!
 
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The last couple of weeks I've started tagging along the weekly practice of some local players to start improving somewhat instead of just the office playing, and it's been great. Long way to go, since there's no coach (just players practicing against each other), but it's been a lot of fun. I do need to get some better shoes though, I've got one pair that's super comfy, but gives me blisters after 1.5 hours of play, but the other supports my feet well, but isn't as comfy and my toes feel a bit squished after all that jumping and moving around.

I also gave one of the players my setup to try out, and he was surprised at how crazy fast - "too fast, much too fast" - it was... so after the last session I finally switched out the Genextions for H3 Neo Prov 39BS/37OS. Seems alright so far in the office, and it even got 7g lighter despite the 0.15mm extra in both sponges, will have to see how it fares next Saturday for a proper test.
 
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Im assuming you're relatively young as you still play soccer so my thoughts would be:
- Overtraining and not taking rest and recovery seriously enough? Do you get enough sleep?
- Blood circulation issues. Not a joke if you think it may be this, get yourself checked out.
- Glutes and Hamstrings not firing properly/doing enough work.
- Dietary deficiency. Do you lack iron or carbohydrate in your diet, can lead to heavy legs.
- Are you drinking enough water? Even a tiny amount of dehydration 'can' lead to significant fatigue.

That's where I'd start anyway.
Easy to work through and see what helps. If you're disciplined and start with more sleep (every night), a bit less heavy training, more water, some more red meat and fruit in your diet every day and can do it all for a month without fail then you're either gonna be fixed or know that it's time to see a doctor/Osteopath/nutritionist or some other expert.
Be interested to hear how you fix this,!
Good luck 🤞👍
I ended up figuring it out, I just wasn't doing enough anaerobic exercises. What happens in TT is that once my legs get a bit fatigued, I start missing everything, so I just stop and take a break. In other words, I don't push my legs hard enough. In soccer, I play on when my legs are fatigued as while I suffer a decrease in performance it wasn't like I was useless. I would play until my legs are so fatigued that I'd literally stumble while I run, then sub out, rest, and come back for more in a few minutes. After just 2 weeks of this my leg endurance has increased greatly, and now I'm more cardiovascular limited in both TT training and soccer, as it should be.
 
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So I've been making a ton of switches to my game. First is an equipment switch, today I started using Viscaria with H3 for the FH and D09c for the BH. I also switched up my grip to basically as high as I can up on the handle. I started doing that a week ago, but today I moved it even higher. For the FH technique I've started using a convex stroke where I hit the ball and then brush up, whereas before I'd use a concave stroke where I hit the ball and then close down over it. For my BH stroke since my hand is farther up the racket my thumb is far higher on the rubber, so I now heavily use my thumb to guide the ball.

That's a lot of changes, but surprisingly they all worked extremely well together! I mean, hot damn the Viscaria +
D09c make for a deadly BH. I feel like I can counter anything now, even heavy loops, as long as I get my timing right. Loop drives and flicks feel easier with the Viscaria as well, though short services suffer a bit. Surprisingly short pushes don't suffer much, as I use so little power that the H3 takes over entirely.

What's really surprising is how the new FH stroke jives with the Viscaria. With my old stroke, whenever I tried to use the Viscaria it would feel very awkward. Shots would be too straight, so that it'd either tank into the net or go long. With the new stroke though it feels much easier to adjust the amount of hitting vs. brushing, and I could easily adjust to the lower dwell of the Viscaria. This new stroke doesn't involve wrapping around the ball, so creates much less sidespin, which also helps me increase the consistency in placement and I think over the long run consistency in general. It's encouraging that even for the first session my consistency is already equal to or better than my previous stroke, and that's with a whole bunch of other changes as well.

With the new grip, the racket now rests much more firmly within my hand. It has two big advantages. First is that it forces me to have a similar grip for BH and FH so that transitions become much easier. I used to have trouble switching between my FH and BH grips quickly enough during quick rallies, and my consistency would suffer greatly. The second is that with my fingers higher up the rubber, I get both better feel and better control of my shots via my fingers, with the thumb being particularly helpful with BH shots. Both blocks and counters are now more controlled in terms of placement.

I'm quite shocked by how well the first practice with the new setup went. One issue is that now my palm is squarely at the thinnest part of the handle. I have fairly small hands so it's prone to slide down a bit as I relax my grip. I think I'm gonna wrap the lower end of the handle with a bit of tape to thicken it up a bit to prevent that.
 
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@Tony's Table Tennis

Dear Coach,
I notice something, purely empirical of course, I assure you. It seems to me the awesomeness of 3rd ball attack style of yesteryears are rare these days. The powerful serve and super awesome 3rd ball kill of the likes of Ma Lin, Wang Hao et al are not found amongst the new generations. Instead, I notice, again purely empirical observation on my part, to be more of a loopy-loopy rally, sometime going into ten or more strokes.

So, if you may indulge me, what happened? Why has such awesomeness left the game? To be certain, those loopy-loopy rally exchange is also awesome in their own right. It is like one may like to savour braised mee sua noodle, but I crave for the pungent and intense taste of stinky too-foo. It is just not so much available these days.
hey Gozo,

the earlier days, of which borders 38mm and 40mm, is way faster than today's 40+ era.
speed glue era too,
service was the key too, especially with hidden serve.

some may call the era more boring, due to bad service return, and your point is over.

ITTF has successful push out the rallies to last longer with all the changes.

so having said that, the game has changed to be more allround, than service focus.
 
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NL,

I have been itching to send you the bat in my sig (with soft BH rubber) along with a couple leftover Nexy "Skull" shirts and a couple Thomas Sowell books for your kids... you might not hate the soft on BH once you operate this blade in action. it really isn't slow at all.
I have to send you Hinoki ALC with National DHS and Dignics 05. It will cure you of Rambo looping tendencies and turn you into a controlled topspin player like me!
 
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My knees paid the price on lifting heavy and training intensely in May/June, but I'm coming out of it with a bit of rest. Definitely a lot slower in terms of footwork and power on my shots, but I probably need like 3-4 drill sessions with staying low and getting my spacing on the ball to get back into it. It literally feels like I'm stuck in mud. Staying low enough is so critical for me.

Having said that, getting a lot of compliments on my backhand play by players higher rated/more experienced than me. Wish I could say the same for my forehand!
I wish I could coach you, don't let footwork drills send you to a life of nagging injuries, the requirement to bend the knees is overrated unless you are going to play at an extremely high level and do the self care of a true athlete. Much better to develop reasonable technique, understand how to control the game and then use that and good anticipation to reduce the need for large movements. You won't be a lights out doubles player at first but over time, your control and ball reading will open up that part of the game for you as well.
 
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I wish I could coach you, don't let footwork drills send you to a life of nagging injuries, the requirement to bend the knees is overrated unless you are going to play at an extremely high level and do the self care of a true athlete. Much better to develop reasonable technique, understand how to control the game and then use that and good anticipation to reduce the need for large movements. You won't be a lights out doubles player at first but over time, your control and ball reading will open up that part of the game for you as well.
The issue I've been having while recovering is seeing the ball better from a bent position vs upright. I'm doing better at reading the contact on hit and anticipating the movement, but I do feel sluggish when I'm positioned more upwards.
 
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The issue I've been having while recovering is seeing the ball better from a bent position vs upright. I'm doing better at reading the contact on hit and anticipating the movement, but I do feel sluggish when I'm positioned more upwards.
Everyone is different for sure but I wouldn't overstress movement at the current playing level you are at, I would focus much more on hitting a quality ball with heavy spin and let the movement phase in over time. As I have said before, stroke planes are different for many players and as long as you stand fairly wide (close to shoulder width), you are usually as low as necessary unless you have short arms or are around the Steffen Mengel height. More important IMHO to learn how to serve better and put away attacking opportunities or open with heavy spin trying to play too young can cause injuries if you didn't start young or aren't putting in the work at the gym. National level juniors have gotten serious TT injuries and quit, don't think that TT high level play isn't something with both costs and benefits because people talk about the benefits of staying low but don't talk about some of the health costs.
 
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So I've been making a ton of switches to my game. First is an equipment switch, today I started using Viscaria with H3 for the FH and D09c for the BH. I also switched up my grip to basically as high as I can up on the handle. I started doing that a week ago, but today I moved it even higher. For the FH technique I've started using a convex stroke where I hit the ball and then brush up, whereas before I'd use a concave stroke where I hit the ball and then close down over it. For my BH stroke since my hand is farther up the racket my thumb is far higher on the rubber, so I now heavily use my thumb to guide the ball.

That's a lot of changes, but surprisingly they all worked extremely well together! I mean, hot damn the Viscaria +
D09c make for a deadly BH. I feel like I can counter anything now, even heavy loops, as long as I get my timing right. Loop drives and flicks feel easier with the Viscaria as well, though short services suffer a bit. Surprisingly short pushes don't suffer much, as I use so little power that the H3 takes over entirely.

What's really surprising is how the new FH stroke jives with the Viscaria. With my old stroke, whenever I tried to use the Viscaria it would feel very awkward. Shots would be too straight, so that it'd either tank into the net or go long. With the new stroke though it feels much easier to adjust the amount of hitting vs. brushing, and I could easily adjust to the lower dwell of the Viscaria. This new stroke doesn't involve wrapping around the ball, so creates much less sidespin, which also helps me increase the consistency in placement and I think over the long run consistency in general. It's encouraging that even for the first session my consistency is already equal to or better than my previous stroke, and that's with a whole bunch of other changes as well.

With the new grip, the racket now rests much more firmly within my hand. It has two big advantages. First is that it forces me to have a similar grip for BH and FH so that transitions become much easier. I used to have trouble switching between my FH and BH grips quickly enough during quick rallies, and my consistency would suffer greatly. The second is that with my fingers higher up the rubber, I get both better feel and better control of my shots via my fingers, with the thumb being particularly helpful with BH shots. Both blocks and counters are now more controlled in terms of placement.

I'm quite shocked by how well the first practice with the new setup went. One issue is that now my palm is squarely at the thinnest part of the handle. I have fairly small hands so it's prone to slide down a bit as I relax my grip. I think I'm gonna wrap the lower end of the handle with a bit of tape to thicken it up a bit to prevent that.
hmmm this sounds kind of like the transition i made about 8 or so months ago. i used to have a slightly different grip on FH vs backhand. The forehand grip was more naturally closed...which resulted in a very spinny forehand and easy to do an inside out forehand loop (hitting the left side of the incoming ball quite easily if i wanted). the problem with having two different grips was, like you said, fractions of delays in the transition from forehand to backhand. which was really hurting my progress as many of my smarter opponents purposely target my backhand for easier points.

So my (at the time) coach had me switch to a completely neutral grip. My forehand loop kind of took an instant downgrade...... and it had a more natural hook tendency (and more open face hit) as i was trying to adjust to the new grip. but my backhand instantly became better and of course the transition from FH to backhand was noticeably improved. Not long after that, I switched to the hurricane rubber on my forehand..and wow. this rubber really is designed for a grip like this with a more open face hit. I really learned to harness the power on my forehand with this grip...and i can honestly say my forehand is better than ever (most of the improvement is coming from the increased use of my lower body...but still the grip helped).

and more importantly...my weakest stroke...my backhand...has only gotten better as the months have progressed. i'm consistently getting kill shots with my backhand in every match. not to the same extent as my forehand, but its no longer an area my opponent can target for easy points every time.
 
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hmmm this sounds kind of like the transition i made about 8 or so months ago. i used to have a slightly different grip on FH vs backhand. The forehand grip was more naturally closed...which resulted in a very spinny forehand and easy to do an inside out forehand loop (hitting the left side of the incoming ball quite easily if i wanted). the problem with having two different grips was, like you said, fractions of delays in the transition from forehand to backhand. which was really hurting my progress as many of my smarter opponents purposely target my backhand for easier points.

So my (at the time) coach had me switch to a completely neutral grip. My forehand loop kind of took an instant downgrade...... and it had a more natural hook tendency (and more open face hit) as i was trying to adjust to the new grip. but my backhand instantly became better and of course the transition from FH to backhand was noticeably improved. Not long after that, I switched to the hurricane rubber on my forehand..and wow. this rubber really is designed for a grip like this with a more open face hit. I really learned to harness the power on my forehand with this grip...and i can honestly say my forehand is better than ever (most of the improvement is coming from the increased use of my lower body...but still the grip helped).

and more importantly...my weakest stroke...my backhand...has only gotten better as the months have progressed. i'm consistently getting kill shots with my backhand in every match. not to the same extent as my forehand, but its no longer an area my opponent can target for easy points every time.
Interesting that you mentioned H3 in relation to all this, but that's very much my experience as well!

I switched to H3 on the FH about 2 months ago, short game, services, and counter-looping improved very quickly thereafter, but I wasn't quite getting the FH loop against blocks the way I wanted either in practice or in games. I think due to the harder sponge, using my old stroke I was brushing more as I wasn't hitting into the sponge as much, and when I tried to hit into the sponge a bit more, then my consistency suffers. About 2 weeks ago, at the end of a practice session, I decided to try out the more open racket then brush up method, and it worked surprisingly well. I had used that technique before when I first started learning TT, but after switching to TB ALC + T05s, that didn't work. The ball shot off the racket too quickly and it was too straight without enough curve/spin, so I haven't used it in many years.

Last week I tried adjusting my grip a bit higher up while also using the new technique, it was a disaster, in both practice and in games. In retrospect, I think the issue is that my grip was somewhere in the middle, so while playing it would sometimes slide up or down and that was the root cause of the inconsistency. During club play on Sunday, a clubmate who plays with the H3 on the FH said that he took some coaching lessons and was taught that you should hold the racket high up, with your thumb resting on the "D" in "DHS", for both FH and BH. So yesterday during practice I decided to change to that, which required me to hold the racket all the way up the handle.

Well I gotta say, it worked extremely well! There was no more guesswork with where I'm holding the racket. The new technique worked brilliantly with the H3, and FH/BH transitions were a lot smoother not to mention my BH was felt a lot more solid.

One thing I'll note with the new FH technique is that it's not so much a "new" technique, but a completion of my old technique. It's not exclusively a hit then brush up technique, but depends on where my racket starts relative to the ball and the ball's height. When my racket has to start far below the ball, like looping something from below the table or a ball that bounced higher than I expected, I would close down the racket, similarly for counter-looping. This technique addition ensures that I get the best contact possible regardless of the ball, whereas before when I tried to close down on every ball I had to often lift my elbow or get poor contact/whiff entirely.
 
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hey Gozo,

the earlier days, of which borders 38mm and 40mm, is way faster than today's 40+ era.
speed glue era too,
service was the key too, especially with hidden serve.

some may call the era more boring, due to bad service return, and your point is over.

ITTF has successful push out the rallies to last longer with all the changes.

so having said that, the game has changed to be more allround, than service focus.
Thank god I still have at my locality, players who still allow me the chance to do those spectacular 3rd ball kill shot. There is still opportunity for me to execute those serve and kill strategy. They are bloody satisfying!!!

NB: I am glad Asian Ojisan style of play is still possible. Makes me shed tears of joy.
 
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Thank god I still have at my locality, players who still allow me the chance to do those spectacular 3rd ball kill shot. There is still opportunity for me to execute those serve and kill strategy. They are bloody satisfying!!!
Anyone should be able to serve and kill routinely vs significantly lower rated opponents on at least 20% of points, maybe much more if their style and footwork is focused on it. The issue is how to do so against opponents with better serve return skills or fourth ball defensive or counter skills or how to generate opportunities consistently and your backup when the opportunities are reduced or eliminated by good coaching or play from the opponent.

Of course less hidden serves and the way the plastic ball slows down and reduces spin effects have made rallies more common at all levels. Hidden or illegal serves are probably the biggest part of jt as a third ball style requires the serve to create a lot of opportunities and most players can perform reasonable returns against equal level opponents when the serves are not hidden.

But the truth in table tennis is that while it is possible to win with early attacking shots, the work required often makes it easier to defeat equal level opponents by developing a style that keeps you in the point when you lack the energy to take early attacking opportunities or can still attack when the opportunities are not blatantly easy to execute. That's where third ball to fifth ball attacking combinations come in as well as giving the opponent a ball to attack that gives you an opportunity to win with a well placed and executed counter. It is easy to forget that one of the biggest things that made Sweden more competitive against the Chinese was the improvement of blocking and countering techniques especially on backhand.
 
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Anyone should be able to serve and kill routinely vs significantly lower rated opponents on at least 20% of points, maybe much more if their style and footwork is focused on it. The issue is how to do so against opponents with better serve return skills or fourth ball defensive or counter skills or how to generate opportunities consistently and your backup when the opportunities are reduced or eliminated by good coaching or play from the opponent.

Of course less hidden serves and the way the plastic ball slows down and reduces spin effects have made rallies more common at all levels. Hidden or illegal serves are probably the biggest part of jt as a third ball style requires the serve to create a lot of opportunities and most players can perform reasonable returns against equal level opponents when the serves are not hidden.

But the truth in table tennis is that while it is possible to win with early attacking shots, the work required often makes it easier to defeat equal level opponents by developing a style that keeps you in the point when you lack the energy to take early attacking opportunities or can still attack when the opportunities are not blatantly easy to execute. That's where third ball to fifth ball attacking combinations come in as well as giving the opponent a ball to attack that gives you an opportunity to win with a well placed and executed counter. It is easy to forget that one of the biggest things that made Sweden more competitive against the Chinese was the improvement of blocking and countering techniques especially on backhand.
Yeah, @NextLevel . Gozo also working on the 5th ball attack, as insurance, just in case 3rd ball no opportunity.


I am very inspired by this online tutorial video, can't wait to try it out.
 
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A few things happened since my last post:

1. Returned quest 3. I thought vr tt is going to be similar and not mess me up irl but it did. While it does seem simar, when I played real tt again it felt super weird and it took me an hour to get used to it.
2. Had an awesome training session with my coach. Worked on footowork, especially transition from bh to fh and also working on hitting loops further away from the middle (98% of my shots go middle of the table)
3. Played league and learned that I need to work on footwork more hence my previous item :)
4. Sticking with rozena rubbers for now. Today training session was a proof that I don’t need better rubbers just better foot/body placement :) I will treat myself to something nice when I get to 1300/1400 though, just as motivation + i love experimenting :)
 
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Though I gained 4 pounds on vacation, I didn't lose all my touch. Played Saturday and Sunday and still haven't lost a match despite playing some competitive opposition on Saturday but definitely no one markedly superior, which is what I need to get to practice and work on. It's clear my game speed has improved closer to what it was maybe 2-3 years ago, despite my being less mobile, because the same opponents who I struggled with, I am beating pretty easily even if they have improved. Now I need to find someone better to play consistently and train with. Possibly with coaching. But once a week is not going to cut it, need to be able to play someone more like 3 times a week. Might just think about the cash outlay and make it work. But there might be someone I can play if a friend gets back from vacation and I get into the training environment he has with a 2300 player - making friends with that 2300 player might be difficult but it is worth a try.

Will test out Skyline 3 blue sponge 40 degrees at some point this week. I have established that I play well with Skyline 3 orange sponge, so the question is whether blue sponge is an improvement or not.
 
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I've been having the thoughts of treating my office to a pair of rackets that could be an upgrade over their bunch of many many many months old premades (for some it looks like the rubber is detaching from the sponge lmao) and maybe tease them into EJing as well! Thankfully for my wallet, most of them aren't very good even for my standards, so I don't really need anything expensive, mainly just durable.

I don't really know much about entry-level premades since my first all-Donic one was a bit expensive already, and is actually too fast for the coworker I usually play with anyway. My current ideas are either Yasaka Sweden Classic or Neottec Gamma All+ for blades, and either Donic Liga or Neottec Hinomi-S for rubbers. Andro Good! is a consideration too, but that's a bit more expensive, which adds up when you need four of 'em!

I've read that stuff like Liga isn't very good once you're past the beginner stage, but I'm mainly looking for hopefully durable upgrades over their premade stuff that has rubbers like Stiga S3, Pongori TTRB500 and whatever's on the Atemi 3000, so the Donic Liga really hasn't got that much competition. Preferably not tacky stuff, since I won't be around all the time to clean them.😂
 
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A few weeks ago, I got a few DoniC Persson Power Play V2 blades in SH handle. Straight out of box without changing the handle to a fat handle... totally OEM... slapped on a used sheet of regular Aurus for FH and a new black sheet of Aurus Soft...


WOW.

Blade is SUPPOSED to be slower by some... in application, I am hitting with even more spin and pace right off the bat.
I always liked the slow spinning capabilities of the V1 PPP and I could always hit hard when I wanted... but hot damn, this combo is even moar Rambo in that regard.
 
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