Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

If my opponent does not attack and reasonable return i give him or her, I am not under any pressure or obligation to attack the first attackable ball.

Attacking the very first attackable ball 100% of the time vs such an opponent is a way to give away a lot of points needlessly.

It is higher percentage to attack the ball you clearly can read. If that is the first ball, no problem, but every first ball is not so clearly read.

An open bat push is yes a disaster attempt return vs topspin serve... if opponent does not attack, a simple off the bounce bump is enough to setup a better ball.

It comes down to what a player can read well. it comes down to playing the percentages. What is high percentage for you may not be high percentage for the player we were discussing.

If my opponent does not attack and reasonable return i give him or her, I am not under any pressure or obligation to attack the first attackable ball.

Attacking the very first attackable ball 100% of the time vs such an opponent is a way to give away a lot of points needlessly.

It is higher percentage to attack the ball you clearly can read. If that is the first ball, no problem, but every first ball is not so clearly read.

An open bat push is yes a disaster attempt return vs topspin serve... if opponent does not attack, a simple off the bounce bump is enough to setup a better ball.

It comes down to what a player can read well. it comes down to playing the percentages. What is high percentage for you may not be high percentage for the player we were discussing.

Yes, but then the bump will also fail if you misread the topspin and it turns out to have underspin, or have more topspin than predicted. Basically, my point is that active strokes like looping are actually less dangerous than they seem, especially against ambiguous spin. If you take it late you also have more time for the spin to die down a bit, and also have more information on the trajectory. Plus the topspin actually helps with landing percentages - if it has less backspin than you think it will prob land longer and higher, if it has more backspin it will land shorter and lower. If you sort of aim for middle length of table it is actually a reasonably high percentage shot. I'm actually more afraid of pushing against quality servers really.

 

[dingyibvs]

So I had my first group training session on Monday, and today had a coaching session, which was the 2nd time I trained with a professional coach, and the first one who actually taught me anything! My gosh, I've learned so much in the past two days, I feel like I need at least 6 months to digest it all! @Tony's Table Tennis is very right that nothing can replace a competent coach. Too bad my first experience with a professional coach was so terrible. In 3 sessions all he tried to teach me was how to hit on the FH side, and all he did in trying to teach me was "just hit like this!" Coulda saved me a lot of time if I had gotten some coaching earlier!

For group training, we started off with 200 FH/BH shadow practice, with a slide step (并步 e.g. when sliding right your left foot touches your right foot before the right foot moves to the right) in between. I only managed 100, but to be fair I was the only one who did real work, everyone else just half-assed it and their feet didn't even come 20% toward each other. Then we played 1-set matches where the winner moves up a table while the loser moves down one so at the end of a bunch of sets people are matched according to their skill levels. Then we did actual alternating BH/FH practice. Then we practiced pushes. Proud to say my table was the only one to be allowed to do full table pushes while all other tables were restricted to BH/BH pushes. For 1-on-1 I first learned the FH loop, then the BH loop, then FH loop vs. backspin. List of things I learned (also for my own record):

For group training:
1) When switching from FH to BH, you're not moving parallel to the table, you should actually move slightly diagonally so that when you're at the BH corner you're closer to the table. That's because you need to take BH shots earlier.
2) When blocking, you cannot shift your racket angle. You need to use your body to suppress the trajectory.
3) When pushing, you shouldn't take the ball too early, not off the bounce but at the top of the bounce. Find the ball with your feet, and don't change the racket angle. Just cut down on it.

For individual training:
1) Luckily my recent training on the FH side is not all wasted, body movement and activation sequence had no issues, but my swing had a lot to fix. The advice I got was probably more specific to me, but I had to fix numerous things. I needed to keep my elbow a bit farther from my body during the forward swing. I have to keep my arm from the elbow down a bit higher, but at the same time I need to swing more from down to up (my body swing gives enough forward momentum), and I needed to point my racket a bit more toward my side and less forward. With those things I'm able to maintain a constant racket angle instead of previously a constantly shifting angle, and I could loop with far less side spin. I also needed to maintain a position closer to the table, as I drift and drift backward as I loop. In the end he wanted me to loop 40 fairly light loops in a row, I managed 38 on first try and he felt it was good enough so moving on!

2) For the BH side, again, probably more specific for me. I've always had an issue with my shoulder getting sore very quickly during BH practices. Apparently that's because I'm holding my elbow too high. The coach made me relax my shoulder, keep my elbow just 1-2 fists away from my body, and use shoulder rotation to generate power. He had me do some "overcompensation" training by making my elbow swing inward toward me to prevent me from jutting my elbow too far out. I also shouldn't swing so much that my racket is all the way to my side, as that's wasted motion, and instead should focus on the forward going portion of the swing.

3) For FH loop vs. backspin, we also incorporated some foot work. He specifically didn't serve the ball very fast so that I can practice keeping my feet moving while waiting for the ball. I dip my racket too low to loop backspins, it only needs to be a bit lower than for looping topspins, but at the same time I sometimes don't maintain a good forward lean. I reach a bit too much when looping from my wide FH, and I need to move my feet more for that. I need to wait until the ball is at it's falling phase, so don't rush to hit it. I also need to concentrate my power, don't be too loose and lackadaisical in the follow through. All other things are the same as versus topspin.

 

[Tyce]

So I skipped TT altogether last week as my head was having some issues. Monday night I went to the club again as we're having a match this Friday.
Holy hell was I rusty! Took me maybe half an hour to get my basics back to where I can trust them. Other than that I feel pretty good, not only did my FH work well after I got warmed up, also my BH started ripping great here and there, which is something I lost confidence in lately due to putting so much focus on my FH issues.

I'm still on the fence whether I want to continue using H3N on my FH or move to a tensor like G1. Slow opening loops are fun and all, and I do feel like I have a little more control over really hard loops, but the middle gear is missing.
I also find myself sometimes swinging with a super closed bat, which I suppose doesn't work well with tensors either but they're a bit more tolerant to that.

 

[jk1980]

For group training, we started off with 200 FH/BH shadow practice, with a slide step (并步 e.g. when sliding right your left foot touches your right foot before the right foot moves to the right) in between. I only managed 100, but to be fair I was the only one who did real work, everyone else just half-assed it and their feet didn't even come 20% toward each other.

I have noticed that if i use that feet shuffle move to move to the left while receiving medium fast serves that break out to the side (backhand) that i am not fast enough.
Did your shadow practice only improve fluidity or did it also significantly improve speed ?
My "solution" for my issue was not shuffling but rather just stepping out with the left leg (pulling the right after a little) and looping from a lower stance.

Then we played 1-set matches where the winner moves up a table while the loser moves down one so at the end of a bunch of sets people are matched according to their skill levels.

Ha, i know this exercise but never actually thought about this being a great way to find matching training partners skillwise. good point.

For group training:
1) When switching from FH to BH, you're not moving parallel to the table, you should actually move slightly diagonally so that when you're at the BH corner you're closer to the table. That's because you need to take BH shots earlier.

Interesting point and probably true, because you can be closer to the table and loop over the table with bh way better than with forehand.

2) For the BH side, again, probably more specific for me. I've always had an issue with my shoulder getting sore very quickly during BH practices. Apparently that's because I'm holding my elbow too high. The coach made me relax my shoulder, keep my elbow just 1-2 fists away from my body, and use shoulder rotation to generate power.

If i do system training with a coach i have the same issue, since i am basically keeping the elbow forward and away from the body to have enough space to accelerate the wrist in front of my body.

Now thinking about this i could imagine the soreness and issue with that specific stance also being connected with a too upward/straight upper body stance. If you are straight upwards with your upper body, then the only way to generate the space for a backhand topspin in front of you is by moving the elbow forward and upwards.
If your upper body is more forward, the very same angle of upper arm will be less demanding, because the elbow will be pointing down more than forward (compared to the straightup upper body position).

He had me do some "overcompensation" training by making my elbow swing inward toward me to prevent me from jutting my elbow too far out. I also shouldn't swing so much that my racket is all the way to my side, as that's wasted motion, and instead should focus on the forward going portion of the swing.

I definitely know that "swing the racket to the side" after a backhand. It's more like i windshield wiper, even though the real force that you wanna exert is only forward.

 

[Zezima]

So I had my first group training session on Monday, and today had a coaching session, which was the 2nd time I trained with a professional coach, and the first one who actually taught me anything! My gosh, I've learned so much in the past two days, I feel like I need at least 6 months to digest it all! @Tony's Table Tennis is very right that nothing can replace a competent coach. Too bad my first experience with a professional coach was so terrible. In 3 sessions all he tried to teach me was how to hit on the FH side, and all he did in trying to teach me was "just hit like this!" Coulda saved me a lot of time if I had gotten some coaching earlier!

For group training, we started off with 200 FH/BH shadow practice, with a slide step (并步 e.g. when sliding right your left foot touches your right foot before the right foot moves to the right) in between. I only managed 100, but to be fair I was the only one who did real work, everyone else just half-assed it and their feet didn't even come 20% toward each other. Then we played 1-set matches where the winner moves up a table while the loser moves down one so at the end of a bunch of sets people are matched according to their skill levels. Then we did actual alternating BH/FH practice. Then we practiced pushes. Proud to say my table was the only one to be allowed to do full table pushes while all other tables were restricted to BH/BH pushes. For 1-on-1 I first learned the FH loop, then the BH loop, then FH loop vs. backspin. List of things I learned (also for my own record):

For group training:
1) When switching from FH to BH, you're not moving parallel to the table, you should actually move slightly diagonally so that when you're at the BH corner you're closer to the table. That's because you need to take BH shots earlier.
2) When blocking, you cannot shift your racket angle. You need to use your body to suppress the trajectory.
3) When pushing, you shouldn't take the ball too early, not off the bounce but at the top of the bounce. Find the ball with your feet, and don't change the racket angle. Just cut down on it.

For individual training:
1) Luckily my recent training on the FH side is not all wasted, body movement and activation sequence had no issues, but my swing had a lot to fix. The advice I got was probably more specific to me, but I had to fix numerous things. I needed to keep my elbow a bit farther from my body during the forward swing. I have to keep my arm from the elbow down a bit higher, but at the same time I need to swing more from down to up (my body swing gives enough forward momentum), and I needed to point my racket a bit more toward my side and less forward. With those things I'm able to maintain a constant racket angle instead of previously a constantly shifting angle, and I could loop with far less side spin. I also needed to maintain a position closer to the table, as I drift and drift backward as I loop. In the end he wanted me to loop 40 fairly light loops in a row, I managed 38 on first try and he felt it was good enough so moving on!

2) For the BH side, again, probably more specific for me. I've always had an issue with my shoulder getting sore very quickly during BH practices. Apparently that's because I'm holding my elbow too high. The coach made me relax my shoulder, keep my elbow just 1-2 fists away from my body, and use shoulder rotation to generate power. He had me do some "overcompensation" training by making my elbow swing inward toward me to prevent me from jutting my elbow too far out. I also shouldn't swing so much that my racket is all the way to my side, as that's wasted motion, and instead should focus on the forward going portion of the swing.

3) For FH loop vs. backspin, we also incorporated some foot work. He specifically didn't serve the ball very fast so that I can practice keeping my feet moving while waiting for the ball. I dip my racket too low to loop backspins, it only needs to be a bit lower than for looping topspins, but at the same time I sometimes don't maintain a good forward lean. I reach a bit too much when looping from my wide FH, and I need to move my feet more for that. I need to wait until the ball is at it's falling phase, so don't rush to hit it. I also need to concentrate my power, don't be too loose and lackadaisical in the follow through. All other things are the same as versus topspin.

When switching from FH to BH, you're not moving parallel to the table, you should actually move slightly diagonally so that when you're at the BH corner you're closer to the table. That's because you need to take BH shots earlier.

I don't think this is a universal rule. As long as you hit the ball infront of you before the ball dips under the table.
bh stroke requires a more precise stroke so I like to have more time when preparing for this stroke. It also depends how fast the incoming ball is.
In your case it might be to also cover wide backhand side. and with the left foot more in front you can reach to that ball without having to reach for it. I would need to see the exercise aswell.

3) When pushing, you shouldn't take the ball too early, not off the bounce but at the top of the bounce. Find the ball with your feet, and don't change the racket angle. Just cut down on it.

Depends what kind of push you talk about. If you wanna keep the ball short you have to take it off the bounce so very early. If you want to push long and fast I prefer to take slightly above net height. Also if you wait too long for it to go higher than that you might consider flipping. So I wouldn't use the balls top of the bounce but the height compared to the net as the decision maker for my shot selection.

I also shouldn't swing so much that my racket is all the way to my side, as that's wasted motion, and instead should focus on the forward going portion of the swing.

if you struggle with backhand stroke as you mentioned, I wouldn't worry too much about the length of your stroke in the beginning. You can always shorten it later and be more explosive at the same time. But having a too short stroke will give you no spin no power + ball will go more into the net. Even pros end their swing later. You can see ML and all the other chinese players going all the way to their left shoulder almost to their left hip side when doing a killer fh loop. They don't just stop at the left eye level. Same with backhand. As long as your stroke doesn't go further than your right hip(with my anatomy) it's good. But again I don't know exactly what he meant by

I also shouldn't swing so much that my racket is all the way to my side

3)

I dip my racket too low to loop backspins,

You don't specify how much backspin you get. But basically knee height is what I go for. As long as you have the time and also what matters more is the acceleration and body motion. So here I would just focus on what he said that you should try to not lose body control and go forward (the less backspin the more you can go forward) Just experiment and make errors otherwise you will never learn to loop just over net height. I try to get my right feet as close as possible to the ball. But yeah this is also a problem I still have during matches.

I need to wait until the ball is at it's falling phase, so don't rush to hit it.

Sure this is when you want to generate more spin which tends to give you straight winners. But I like to mix it up so it gets harder for them to get used to it. You can definetly take it earlier. Just 2 different techniques both are good to learn.

Overall some good inputs by him. Just feels like he trys to teach you "one" way. Instead of explaining you all the different options you can go for and let you experiment with. In actual matches not the one with the cleanest technique wins most of the time. But then again it was just one session right so no blame on him.

How many people are you and how much does he charge you for? Sounds fun and quite sad at the same time if there are people that are not as motivated as you are!

 

[dingyibvs]

I don't think this is a universal rule. As long as you hit the ball infront of you before the ball dips under the table.
bh stroke requires a more precise stroke so I like to have more time when preparing for this stroke. It also depends how fast the incoming ball is.
In your case it might be to also cover wide backhand side. and with the left foot more in front you can reach to that ball without having to reach for it. I would need to see the exercise aswell.

Depends what kind of push you talk about. If you wanna keep the ball short you have to take it off the bounce so very early. If you want to push long and fast I prefer to take slightly above net height. Also if you wait too long for it to go higher than that you might consider flipping. So I wouldn't use the balls top of the bounce but the height compared to the net as the decision maker for my shot selection.

if you struggle with backhand stroke as you mentioned, I wouldn't worry too much about the length of your stroke in the beginning. You can always shorten it later and be more explosive at the same time. But having a too short stroke will give you no spin no power + ball will go more into the net. Even pros end their swing later. You can see ML and all the other chinese players going all the way to their left shoulder almost to their left hip side when doing a killer fh loop. They don't just stop at the left eye level. Same with backhand. As long as your stroke doesn't go further than your right hip(with my anatomy) it's good. But again I don't know exactly what he meant by


3)

You don't specify how much backspin you get. But basically knee height is what I go for. As long as you have the time and also what matters more is the acceleration and body motion. So here I would just focus on what he said that you should try to not lose body control and go forward (the less backspin the more you can go forward) Just experiment and make errors otherwise you will never learn to loop just over net height. I try to get my right feet as close as possible to the ball. But yeah this is also a problem I still have during matches.


Sure this is when you want to generate more spin which tends to give you straight winners. But I like to mix it up so it gets harder for them to get used to it. You can definetly take it earlier. Just 2 different techniques both are good to learn.

Overall some good inputs by him. Just feels like he trys to teach you "one" way. Instead of explaining you all the different options you can go for and let you experiment with. In actual matches not the one with the cleanest technique wins most of the time. But then again it was just one session right so no blame on him.

How many people are you and how much does he charge you for? Sounds fun and quite sad at the same time if there are people that are not as motivated as you are!

For group training we had I think maybe 16-18 people. I'm definitely super motivated, it's $55 for 90 mins of group training, and $90 for an hour of 1-on-1.

In matches nothing is gonna be the same, the coach actually mentioned something like that too. He was like you can try to copy Ma Long's practice loops, but in matches he doesn't really loop like that. The purpose of the training is really to develop the optimal shots, so that in matches you try to get it as optimal as possible and reduce errors while maximizing quality.

As for the specific points. The FH/BH drill of course is assuming that the ball coming to you is high quality. Even if that's not what we actually practice, it's a habit I think we should develop. The drill we did was specifically for footwork, so we were specifically told to reduce the power of our shots so we can get into a rally instead of "spending all your time picking up the ball", as the coach instructed. For pushes, I think I should specify that he meant a regular push, where you're intending to push long. Off the bounce for a short push is a different type of push.

For the other parts, as I mentioned they're more specific for me. For example, for the swing part, mine is waaaay beyond my right hip lol. I think he's correct that my swing is too big and wild, and that goes for the FH side too. I've posted some videos of my form before, you can see here how my arm swing on the FH loops vs topspin is too wild, too loose, without enough concentration of energy. And how it's similar on my FH loops vs. backspin.

 

[dingyibvs]

I have noticed that if i use that feet shuffle move to move to the left while receiving medium fast serves that break out to the side (backhand) that i am not fast enough.
Did your shadow practice only improve fluidity or did it also significantly improve speed ?
My "solution" for my issue was not shuffling but rather just stepping out with the left leg (pulling the right after a little) and looping from a lower stance.


Ha, i know this exercise but never actually thought about this being a great way to find matching training partners skillwise. good point.


Interesting point and probably true, because you can be closer to the table and loop over the table with bh way better than with forehand.


If i do system training with a coach i have the same issue, since i am basically keeping the elbow forward and away from the body to have enough space to accelerate the wrist in front of my body.

Now thinking about this i could imagine the soreness and issue with that specific stance also being connected with a too upward/straight upper body stance. If you are straight upwards with your upper body, then the only way to generate the space for a backhand topspin in front of you is by moving the elbow forward and upwards.
If your upper body is more forward, the very same angle of upper arm will be less demanding, because the elbow will be pointing down more than forward (compared to the straightup upper body position).





I definitely know that "swing the racket to the side" after a backhand. It's more like i windshield wiper, even though the real force that you wanna exert is only forward.

Realistically, I don't think anyone actually ever uses the full shuffle step in real matches. It's was more of an exercise for me. I was definitely out of breath and had to take multiple breaks, and I still wasn't able to complete the full 200!

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Non ITTF rule compliance serve caught red-handed!

 

[Zezima]

For group training we had I think maybe 16-18 people. I'm definitely super motivated, it's $55 for 90 mins of group training, and $90 for an hour of 1-on-1.

In matches nothing is gonna be the same, the coach actually mentioned something like that too. He was like you can try to copy Ma Long's practice loops, but in matches he doesn't really loop like that. The purpose of the training is really to develop the optimal shots, so that in matches you try to get it as optimal as possible and reduce errors while maximizing quality.

As for the specific points. The FH/BH drill of course is assuming that the ball coming to you is high quality. Even if that's not what we actually practice, it's a habit I think we should develop. The drill we did was specifically for footwork, so we were specifically told to reduce the power of our shots so we can get into a rally instead of "spending all your time picking up the ball", as the coach instructed. For pushes, I think I should specify that he meant a regular push, where you're intending to push long. Off the bounce for a short push is a different type of push.

For the other parts, as I mentioned they're more specific for me. For example, for the swing part, mine is waaaay beyond my right hip lol. I think he's correct that my swing is too big and wild, and that goes for the FH side too. I've posted some videos of my form before, you can see here how my arm swing on the FH loops vs topspin is too wild, too loose, without enough concentration of energy. And how it's similar on my FH loops vs. backspin.

Lol I was like when will you run out of breath. I could see that coming from the first 10sec or so.
Now I see what you mean by that. Yes your FH swing is very big you use a lot of energy that you didn't transfer on to the ball. Someone would take a large swing if he can actually accelerate aswell. Your look the same speed till close to contact. So all that movement before is useless. You can get the same speed at contact with a much shorter stroke.

Your backhand is a bit shaky. I would need to see you loop one backspin + against block right after. From the looks I would guess you doing more errors against a normal higher block to your backhand. I say that because you do a circle when looping against backspin balls. You would generate more power and spin and also have way more control if you focus on a shorter but more sharp stroke and hit the ball in the same line going forwards. I do this same mistake and have to keep telling myself to unlearn this habit. Thats why I struggle for the followup fast ball or empty balls (trying to apply my spin) and do the same kind of circular motion as you and the ball flys off the table.
That's why I take the speed out of my stroke so the ball can still land on the other side of the table. But thats just a temporary solution. Kind of sucks that I have to loop slower even though mechanically I could go faster but I don't because the motion goes circular up instead of in a line. I got much better lately and hopefully I can show that in display on thursday.
Anyway it should be easier to shorten the strokes now than if it would have been the other way around (too short -> too long).
Footwork also looks much much better I have to admit. Don't train too much like you are now, because it's not very match-specific.
Also found it funny how the car is right behind to make sure you don't miss the table (jking)

 

[dingyibvs]

Lol I was like when will you run out of breath. I could see that coming from the first 10sec or so.
Now I see what you mean by that. Yes your FH swing is very big you use a lot of energy that you didn't transfer on to the ball. Someone would take a large swing if he can actually accelerate aswell. Your look the same speed till close to contact. So all that movement before is useless. You can get the same speed at contact with a much shorter stroke.

Your backhand is a bit shaky. I would need to see you loop one backspin + against block right after. From the looks I would guess you doing more errors against a normal higher block to your backhand. I say that because you do a circle when looping against backspin balls. You would generate more power and spin and also have way more control if you focus on a shorter but more sharp stroke and hit the ball in the same line going forwards. I do this same mistake and have to keep telling myself to unlearn this habit. Thats why I struggle for the followup fast ball or empty balls (trying to apply my spin) and do the same kind of circular motion as you and the ball flys off the table.
That's why I take the speed out of my stroke so the ball can still land on the other side of the table. But thats just a temporary solution. Kind of sucks that I have to loop slower even though mechanically I could go faster but I don't because the motion goes circular up instead of in a line. I got much better lately and hopefully I can show that in display on thursday.
Anyway it should be easier to shorten the strokes now than if it would have been the other way around (too short -> too long).
Footwork also looks much much better I have to admit. Don't train too much like you are now, because it's not very match-specific.
Also found it funny how the car is right behind to make sure you don't miss the table (jking)

That was when I first started practicing the BH loop vs backspin, I've gone through many iterations of technique changes and while it's become much better in games it really doesn't look much better. I actually forgot to mention, but that circle thing was something the coach pointed out as well, though in the context of looping topspins. He was saying that I go down too much at the end of the swing, which is also wasted motion. Man, so much to unpack.

On the equipment front, during the group training the coach advised against using my Q968 setup, said it was too difficult to "hit through". As such, I'm switching back to thr FZD setup. Still don't love its handle though. The super comfortable handle of the 968 series is something I'll miss more than anything else.

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

2) For the BH side, again, probably more specific for me. I've always had an issue with my shoulder getting sore very quickly during BH practices. Apparently that's because I'm holding my elbow too high. The coach made me relax my shoulder, keep my elbow just 1-2 fists away from my body, and use shoulder rotation to generate power. He had me do some "overcompensation" training by making my elbow swing inward toward me to prevent me from jutting my elbow too far out. I also shouldn't swing so much that my racket is all the way to my side, as that's wasted motion, and instead should focus on the forward going portion of the swing.

3) For FH loop vs. backspin, we also incorporated some foot work. He specifically didn't serve the ball very fast so that I can practice keeping my feet moving while waiting for the ball. I dip my racket too low to loop backspins, it only needs to be a bit lower than for looping topspins, but at the same time I sometimes don't maintain a good forward lean. I reach a bit too much when looping from my wide FH, and I need to move my feet more for that. I need to wait until the ball is at it's falling phase, so don't rush to hit it. I also need to concentrate my power, don't be too loose and lackadaisical in the follow through. All other things are the same as versus topspin.

Thanks for sharing your learnings! It sounded like a list of issues, I usually have.

For BH technique, during matches, I would feel fine but during drills, my shoulder would start getting sore. I have been incorporating feedback from a higher level player:

(i) elbow being too low (!) which forces me to hit to the side rather than forward. Still trying to optimize exact distance of elbow from body and its height but it has to be higher than how I have been keeping it

(ii) i always thought I was rotating around my elbow; but it turns out, the form keeps breaking down and I start reaching for the ball. This is what I am trying to fix by "adding a new shot" to my arsenal rather than fixing an old habit

(iii) backswing is too small.

Can you speak a bit about this "overcompensation" training?

For FH, the highlighted stuff definitely resonates with me. I don't go past my hip but my backswing is generally too big (and too horizontal when it comes to backspin) so that is another project in progress lol.

 

[Jslick89]

That was when I first started practicing the BH loop vs backspin, I've gone through many iterations of technique changes and while it's become much better in games it really doesn't look much better. I actually forgot to mention, but that circle thing was something the coach pointed out as well, though in the context of looping topspins. He was saying that I go down too much at the end of the swing, which is also wasted motion. Man, so much to unpack.

On the equipment front, during the group training the coach advised against using my Q968 setup, said it was too difficult to "hit through". As such, I'm switching back to thr FZD setup. Still don't love its handle though. The super comfortable handle of the 968 series is something I'll miss more than anything else.

hey man did you ever use a viscaria? when i was peeling off the rubber on my oldest vis, a very small portion of the top layer peeled off with the rubber. thankfully on the very edge so not effecting performance. but i was thinking it might be the perfect excuse to buy a FZD ALC. I have seen some posts where people act like its a noticably different than vis, but on the butterfly chart, they are the same. what do you think? i know weight and stuff is a factor, i would aim to get the same weight as my current vis's (87-88 gram).

 

[dingyibvs]

hey man did you ever use a viscaria? when i was peeling off the rubber on my oldest vis, a very small portion of the top layer peeled off with the rubber. thankfully on the very edge so not effecting performance. but i was thinking it might be the perfect excuse to buy a FZD ALC. I have seen some posts where people act like its a noticably different than vis, but on the butterfly chart, they are the same. what do you think? i know weight and stuff is a factor, i would aim to get the same weight as my current vis's (87-88 gram).

Yes, I used a Viscaria for a couple months before the FZD. It's limited sample size so I can't really say if it's the difference between the Viscaria or the FZD, but they play surprisingly differently, almost as much of a difference as between say the W968 and the Q968. Both mine are ~89 grams, but the FZD feels considerably more flexible, with a bit more arc but less speed. Again, that may not be the actual difference between the two lines of blades but simply the difference my two particular blades.

One thing is for sure though, the Viscaria has a significantly wider shoulder, which I think would fit a bigger hand better. The FZD's shoulder feels almost identical to DHS blades' shoulder. The handles feel similar in thickness, but the FZD's is slightly more rounded. I just got a ZJK ALC, it seems to have the same shoulder as the FZD while the top portion of the handle feels slightly thinner. I chose the FZD over the Viscaria mostly for fit in my hand, I like its the narrower shoulder better.

 

[dingyibvs]

Thanks for sharing your learnings! It sounded like a list of issues, I usually have.

For BH technique, during matches, I would feel fine but during drills, my shoulder would start getting sore. I have been incorporating feedback from a higher level player:

(i) elbow being too low (!) which forces me to hit to the side rather than forward. Still trying to optimize exact distance of elbow from body and its height but it has to be higher than how I have been keeping it

(ii) i always thought I was rotating around my elbow; but it turns out, the form keeps breaking down and I start reaching for the ball. This is what I am trying to fix by "adding a new shot" to my arsenal rather than fixing an old habit

(iii) backswing is too small.

Can you speak a bit about this "overcompensation" training?

For FH, the highlighted stuff definitely resonates with me. I don't go past my hip but my backswing is generally too big (and too horizontal when it comes to backspin) so that is another project in progress lol.

The coach said the elbow should be about 1-2 fists away from the body. Of course, this is during practice, during actual matches you'll have to do whatever to get the ball on the table. For the "overcompensation" training, basically what he meant was that usually you want your elbow to be stable during the stroke, but because of my habit of jutting it out, he wants my elbow to actually move left (toward my body, as a right hander) while the racket moves right. That actually produced the best shots of the night lol.

BTW, @Zezima, I just remember a few more things related to what we were talking about. For pushes at the top of the bounce, it can actually be really useful against an opponent's very short, off the bounce, push. Against really short balls, if you push at the top of the bounce it's really easy to either push it short or long, with minimal variation in technique. If you push a really short ball off the bounce, it's very difficult to push long without it ending up also high. For looping backspins at the falling stage, I forgot to mention that we weren't practicing brush loops, but regular loops, like the FZD practice here (except just 2 locations and I wasn't allowed to fully drive it as FZD did a couple times):

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

The coach said the elbow should be about 1-2 fists away from the body. Of course, this is during practice, during actual matches you'll have to do whatever to get the ball on the table. For the "overcompensation" training, basically what he meant was that usually you want your elbow to be stable during the stroke, but because of my habit of jutting it out, he wants my elbow to actually move left (toward my body, as a right hander) while the racket moves right. That actually produced the best shots of the night lol.

Oh that's a great tip! I'll definitely try it out. Thanks!!

 

[Zezima]

That was when I first started practicing the BH loop vs backspin, I've gone through many iterations of technique changes and while it's become much better in games it really doesn't look much better. I actually forgot to mention, but that circle thing was something the coach pointed out as well, though in the context of looping topspins. He was saying that I go down too much at the end of the swing, which is also wasted motion. Man, so much to unpack.

On the equipment front, during the group training the coach advised against using my Q968 setup, said it was too difficult to "hit through". As such, I'm switching back to thr FZD setup. Still don't love its handle though. The super comfortable handle of the 968 series is something I'll miss more than anything else.

Same rubber just different blade? Hitting through is just a technique thing though. And isnt that blade also expensive?

I myself been playing with my new blade aswell and learning hitting through more. It just takes me like 15min of forehand loop to finally starting to hit some. Feels very nice if I can give the ball some pace and go forwards.

Todays training session was really good for me I hope I have the same feeling tomorrow.

 

[dingyibvs]

Same rubber just different blade? Hitting through is just a technique thing though. And isnt that blade also expensive?

I myself been playing with my new blade aswell and learning hitting through more. It just takes me like 15min of forehand loop to finally starting to hit some. Feels very nice if I can give the ball some pace and go forwards.

Todays training session was really good for me I hope I have the same feeling tomorrow.

Same FH rubber, but D09c instead of H3 on the backhand side. I got it used so a bit cheaper, I think $100, the Q was $400 so a lot cheaper! I can hit through thr blade in practice just fine, but in matches I have a lot of trouble on most shots, particularly on the BH side. In matches I can only hit through it consistently on loops vs block or counterloop (I can't BH counterloop so just FH). It's hard to do against backspin, almost impossible with the BH. I can really only brush loop against backspin on the BH side.

 

[blahness]

For group training we had I think maybe 16-18 people. I'm definitely super motivated, it's $55 for 90 mins of group training, and $90 for an hour of 1-on-1.

In matches nothing is gonna be the same, the coach actually mentioned something like that too. He was like you can try to copy Ma Long's practice loops, but in matches he doesn't really loop like that. The purpose of the training is really to develop the optimal shots, so that in matches you try to get it as optimal as possible and reduce errors while maximizing quality.

As for the specific points. The FH/BH drill of course is assuming that the ball coming to you is high quality. Even if that's not what we actually practice, it's a habit I think we should develop. The drill we did was specifically for footwork, so we were specifically told to reduce the power of our shots so we can get into a rally instead of "spending all your time picking up the ball", as the coach instructed. For pushes, I think I should specify that he meant a regular push, where you're intending to push long. Off the bounce for a short push is a different type of push.

For the other parts, as I mentioned they're more specific for me. For example, for the swing part, mine is waaaay beyond my right hip lol. I think he's correct that my swing is too big and wild, and that goes for the FH side too. I've posted some videos of my form before, you can see here how my arm swing on the FH loops vs topspin is too wild, too loose, without enough concentration of energy. And how it's similar on my FH loops vs. backspin.

Aren't this videos like few yrs old now and completely irrelevant? Thought you changed the stroke a lot by now....

 

[blahness]

For BH elbow positioning, I find that using the lats to pull the elbow clockwise (similar to say doing a pullup) is the best power amplifier there is. The tell is that on a full power BH topspin they will have the elbow pointing to the right or even front during the backswing, and then by the end of the swing it is pointing downwards. All of the guys with top BH topspins like Lin Shidong and Fan Zhendong all have it. This also happens to put the shoulder in a better position imo.

 

[blahness]

Anyway imo fundamental practice is only useful up to the point where you can move and loop well, after that 90% of table tennis is just the cat and mouse serve and receive game lol. If your serves cause the receiver to make easy mistakes and pop ups, and you are able to decipher and loop all long serves + follow up decisively, and receive the short serves decently well you are most probably gonna win the match.

You can loop like a madman but if you don't have good serve/receive it is all for nothing.