Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Zezima]

I mean continuously improve at spinning. Not continuously improve at hitting the ball harder. Hitting the ball hard against good players has an athletic limit. Spinning is what brings consistency. It is tempting to think I have gotten to spin, I can stop working on it but you will see that there are are levels you need to get to. You still don't really spin on your backhand and your spin placement on both sides is very predictable. But you are at least finally in the queue.

But spinning with very low speed is also not helping compared to lesser spin but more speed. Also depends how deep the spinny ball gets right.

 

[NextLevel]

But spinning with very low speed is also not helping compared to lesser spin but more speed. Also depends how deep the spinny ball gets right.

This can be true but is not necessarily true. Can heavy slow spin cause timing issues for some opponents? Especially if the ball is short and has to be taken over the table? The problem is that it is difficult to produce this ball consistently. Timo used to be able to do it with the older ball but he does much more traditional third ball opening spin now. Then the other question if if it is slow and spinny, is it easier to passively block? Depends on the opponent.

That said, you are largely at a level where you have adopted the main point of my advice, what you have to decide is how you want to win and lose points and how spin or speed or some combination of both helps you play better and select shots to fix that.

The main problem I am trying to help people solve is to break the USATT 1600 barrier where you are now a serious player who can beat people without defensive skills who just give you sitting balls. Many people get enamored with the speed of the pros and don't understand the speed is largely a result of their athleticism and timing, their consistency is because of a heavy spin focus during training. Because the biggest problem at the lowest level is to hit consistency offensive shots, it is better to continue to work on your spin and ability to spin and attack many balls regardless of quality that to focus on hitting winners, something that will ultimately break down as demands on the environment, opponent etc. change. And since the focus on spin will also be transferable to hitting winners etc., it is best to do it anyways as part of any training. And if you are unathletic, focusing on spin let's you take the ball later sometimes, let's you select shots for consistency vs power and let's you play an offensive style regardless of the situation.

Are there tradeoffs and limits? Yes this is true for all table tennis styles. Speed is at a premium as the game gets more athletic because at that level, consistency is pretty much a given and you can't expect your opponent to be inconsistent. But most players at lower levels are under the illusion that they have to be faster than they really need to be and less consistent than they need to be. This is often because their anticipation of the opponent is poor so they try to make up for it by playing faster and hoping to rush the opponent mostly with power. But if you are consistent, you can also rush the opponent by frustrating their anticipation as long as they are less athletic (athletic players will tend to run the ball down and make you play another shot).

The biggest value of playing with spin is that it allows you to stay consistent with relatively fast swings so you can swing faster and still keep the ball on the table. But the keeping the ball on the table part is often underestimated and the fast swings part is all learning amateurs see. And spin can pose all problems for all players relative to their level.

 

[Amaken23]

So as a penholder, I've been a long time fan of Kaii Yoshida. That's how I've always known him.

I've recently stumbled upon (I think it's the same league) that always mentions him as Kaii Konishi.

Did he change his name or is this just some sort of strange translation thing? Doesn't matter all that much I suppose but was just curious if anyone knew.

From what I've read on his wikipedia page, he changed the surname after marriage

 

[Amaken23]

So....
went up to watch the last match of Polish TT Superleague in the neighbouring city (my city's team was playing against them). Sadly, they lost 1-3 but because of victory in their previous match, they managed to avoid relegation to the lower tier before the match so they could play with less tension. Coach of the club (where I go to train too) even allowed a 10 year old from our club to play in the match as a reward for getting 1st place in the state tournament in his group age. He lost quite badly but the experience itself was amazing and everyone, including opponents team and fans clapped whenever he managed to get the point. Sadly, when I play against him in the club, it is 50-50 in either side. Man, he is quick, playing immediately after the bounce near the table. Only shows the difference between professionals and amateurs/youth players skill gap. Quite happy since I will be able to see highest level of TT in my city next season, can't wait for Wednesday to get to the table myself and train. I need to really practice my forehand since I have really bad forehand but quite good backhand and I am improving in it but very slowly.

 

[blahness]

my opponents who play this style use BH to attack with spin. (or occasionally turn the racket).
usually the A plan is not to turn the racket(unless ball is easy) but they will follow up a good serve with the same inverted side, they'll do this to surprise at key moments
--
maybe in 10 years time ill switch to this when i can't move as much..

Yes - i discussed this before here but this is one of the strongest amateur styles (LP/inverted twiddling Cpen) imo (which I've seen can even take down some pros).

I know their weaknesses now but it is always easier said than done to exploit it.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Just got back from a weekend interclub friendly with a club from another state ( AWAY game ).

@Tony's Table Tennis , I got a chance to play with an academy trained giggly U15 teenage girl and I lost 0-3. Yes poor sod Gozo lost to a little girl. Darn it, that rugrat is fast and relentless. She can pivot so easily like a cloudwalker. Oh wait, when you don't have to carry a 100kg bulk, I am sure Gozo can pivot like a ballerina too.

Some saving grace, I played a total of seven best of five singles matches and my win lost is 3W4L. I am ok against fellow Asian Ojisan and and and.... there was no pipsters! Yay! Joy & Happiness!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Just got back from a weekend interclub friendly with a club from another state ( AWAY game ).

@Tony's Table Tennis , I got a chance to play with those giggly U15 teenage girl and I lost 0-3. Yes poor sod Gozo lost to a little girl. Darn it, those rugrats are fast and relentless. The can pivot so easily like they are cloudwalker. Oh wait, when you don't have to carry a 100kg bulk, I am sure Gozo can pivot like a ballerina too.

Some saving grace, I played seven singles match and my win lost is 3W4L. I am ok against fellow Asian Ojisan and and and.... there was no pipsters! Yay! Joy & Happiness!

well, just one day last week, I took out my racket and was a training partner for a 16 year old.
after 1.5 hours of drills.... I was out.

the head coach laughed

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

well, just one day last week, I took out my racket and was a training partner for a 16 year old.
after 1.5 hours of drills.... I was out.

the head coach laughed

Spoiler: It's ok Tony, I understand...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Spoiler: It's ok Tony, I understand...

View attachment 35671

high 5 brother!

 

[Zezima]

This can be true but is not necessarily true. Can heavy slow spin cause timing issues for some opponents? Especially if the ball is short and has to be taken over the table? The problem is that it is difficult to produce this ball consistently. Timo used to be able to do it with the older ball but he does much more traditional third ball opening spin now. Then the other question if if it is slow and spinny, is it easier to passively block? Depends on the opponent.

That said, you are largely at a level where you have adopted the main point of my advice, what you have to decide is how you want to win and lose points and how spin or speed or some combination of both helps you play better and select shots to fix that.

The main problem I am trying to help people solve is to break the USATT 1600 barrier where you are now a serious player who can beat people without defensive skills who just give you sitting balls. Many people get enamored with the speed of the pros and don't understand the speed is largely a result of their athleticism and timing, their consistency is because of a heavy spin focus during training. Because the biggest problem at the lowest level is to hit consistency offensive shots, it is better to continue to work on your spin and ability to spin and attack many balls regardless of quality that to focus on hitting winners, something that will ultimately break down as demands on the environment, opponent etc. change. And since the focus on spin will also be transferable to hitting winners etc., it is best to do it anyways as part of any training. And if you are unathletic, focusing on spin let's you take the ball later sometimes, let's you select shots for consistency vs power and let's you play an offensive style regardless of the situation.

Are there tradeoffs and limits? Yes this is true for all table tennis styles. Speed is at a premium as the game gets more athletic because at that level, consistency is pretty much a given and you can't expect your opponent to be inconsistent. But most players at lower levels are under the illusion that they have to be faster than they really need to be and less consistent than they need to be. This is often because their anticipation of the opponent is poor so they try to make up for it by playing faster and hoping to rush the opponent mostly with power. But if you are consistent, you can also rush the opponent by frustrating their anticipation as long as they are less athletic (athletic players will tend to run the ball down and make you play another shot).

The biggest value of playing with spin is that it allows you to stay consistent with relatively fast swings so you can swing faster and still keep the ball on the table. But the keeping the ball on the table part is often underestimated and the fast swings part is all learning amateurs see. And spin can pose all problems for all players relative to their level.

I think at this point we would need to look at some cases and understand why it didn't work there but worked with a different point.

Human brains remember the bad shots and I think for me particular it feels embarrassing looping a ball that gets slapped back (which also gives a huge confident boost to my opponent that is important for the upcoming points)
Compared to when I go harder but miss (my opponent is like phew lucky me that he didn't land that on my side of the table - so he is still intimidated)

Over the years it got much better comparing my game in the LL to these last few games I played. But thats also because I am either ahead or not so scared of the incoming spin and overall just more confident looping I guess.

Recently there was a Top4 Tournament in our county. It was insane how the 2300RC rated player Istvan Toth made the 2nd best player 1900RC look like an amateur. He went for really hard loops had no consistency while I. was playing very relaxed almost amateurish loops but very consistent. I think he also played much better placement wise but I didn't have the capacity to analyze that during the game what he was aiming for specifically. What I saw was that he served 90% long and his opponent struggeled for some reason. And most of his serve had no spin. I don't even remember him serving with sidespin or with a lot of backspin (maybe once).

 

[Novarac23]

Two days late but I made it to the finals of the tournament on Saturday it was in the lowest division but still! I had a good time. I finally had a plan going into a match, executed on it and did my best to stay relaxed. Still lots to improve on like spinnier serves, footwork of getting in the position after the serve, stepping a twoish steps away from the table after the opening loop to give myself space for looping, BH to FH transition, looping with less tension in upper body etc etc.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

practiced today with higher ranked players. what was the most terrible is that i am not even WATCHING the serve. how can i see what the spin is ? Why do i have such bad habits ?
that was the most terrible. of course everything is better quality, balls are faster more spinny, their reaction time is faster, they are more creative also, the ball placement is better...

BUT TT is a simple game, if you can serve well and play your patterns, if you can receive well and block well, there is always an opportunity and some hope.

 

[NextLevel]

I think at this point we would need to look at some cases and understand why it didn't work there but worked with a different point.

Human brains remember the bad shots and I think for me particular it feels embarrassing looping a ball that gets slapped back (which also gives a huge confident boost to my opponent that is important for the upcoming points)
Compared to when I go harder but miss (my opponent is like phew lucky me that he didn't land that on my side of the table - so he is still intimidated)

Over the years it got much better comparing my game in the LL to these last few games I played. But thats also because I am either ahead or not so scared of the incoming spin and overall just more confident looping I guess.

Recently there was a Top4 Tournament in our county. It was insane how the 2300RC rated player Istvan Toth made the 2nd best player 1900RC look like an amateur. He went for really hard loops had no consistency while I. was playing very relaxed almost amateurish loops but very consistent. I think he also played much better placement wise but I didn't have the capacity to analyze that during the game what he was aiming for specifically. What I saw was that he served 90% long and his opponent struggeled for some reason. And most of his serve had no spin. I don't even remember him serving with sidespin or with a lot of backspin (maybe once).

A lot of table tennis is invisible (mental) so while you see the players hitting the ball, you don't see their anticipation and preparation as much. The anticipation and preparation is the biggest thing that distinguishes the levels of well trained players and is why it is very hard to impossible to bother a good international player. He just sees everything you are doing as if you are in slow motion and you feel as if everything is happening at light speed.

The whole mental processing thing used to be invisible to me until I played around with the old TTEdge app. I used to practice guessing where the shot would go on it. But I noticed one day that if I played with app after I had played a match of TT, the app felt really slow to me.. Obviously, the app can't really get slower, it is my mental experience that feels faster.

So the ways in which a faster, tighter and more deceptive serve, a quicker preparation for a more powerful loop, an quick redirection etc. trouble a player might seem like nothing when you watch the match, but when you play the player, you experience it. IT feels to you as if you have no idea what is going to happen. And conversely, when you play a slower player, you feel they can't do anything you don't expect unless you made a huge error. Of course there can be unexpected weird things but that is where the ability to control/spin all kinds of balls comes into play and insulates you from losing to the hardbat or pips players who play below your level but can take advantage of your unfamiliarity with their material. This is one of the things that keeps some players below a certain rating level.

On the spin thing, here are some relevant comments by Koslovsky on slow and high topspin in rallies. Some players struggle with it, some players don't. Not claiming it is the only way to play or that it is easy to play it like Timo, but that it is still a reasonable style if one can use it to maintain consistency and move around the opponent.

 

[yamagata]

From yesterdays 1-hour weekly training at my local club I wonder if not the four basic strokes are overenhanced. After training them for 5 months, it is my flat hits that are successful, and those I have not trained at all.

Seeing that Falck reached world cup finals with flat hit fh and Truls reached 7 on the world ranking with flat hit bh, maybe we all should change focus from four basic strokes to the flat hit punch.

 

[Machi]

From yesterdays 1-hour weekly training at my local club I wonder if not the four basic strokes are overenhanced. After training them for 5 months, it is my flat hits that are successful, and those I have not trained at all.

Seeing that Falck reached world cup finals with flat hit fh and Truls reached 7 on the world ranking with flat hit bh, maybe we all should change focus from four basic strokes to the flat hit punch.

then look at the chinese players who loops

 

[zhzhzhz]

This is so random but at the same time I wanted to share my findings.

I was watching this drama titled "Such a good love" and I spotted a guy playing pool while wearing a butterfly t shirt.

 

[Milton Table Tennis Club]

This is so random but at the same time I wanted to share my findings.

I was watching this drama titled "Such a good love" and I spotted a guy playing pool while wearing a butterfly t shirt.
View attachment 35716

Nice. I played in a pool league almost 30 years ago, that's a great game too. I prefer TT for exercise but do miss going into the large pool halls and some of the nicer looking pool rooms, bars. You just don't see pool halls and arcades anymore.

 

[Tyce]

Had another hard experience in league tonight, but I think I'm seeing a pattern here.
I have trouble against certain people, one profile being someone playing with classic rubber (Sriver or equivalent).
There's enough grip on it to produce actual backspin, and not enough to have a problem with my spin. Also, when they attack with it, there's less speed and spin than I expect, so I dump the return in the net.
Now if it's dead rubber, I can handle it. Don't like how I have to play then but I'll manage.
But actual working, relatively fresh classic inverted, I honestly don't know how to impose my game on.
Last season, there was one woman, not particularly strong at anything but her backhand which she could just slam through any spin or speed I gave her. That was Sriver.
Today, I lost to a guy who I had a lot of trouble with in the home game earlier, he plays Vari Spin and almost completely ignored my spin.
The guy who I basically dumped all my blocks in the net against the other week, classic rubber.
The guy who I lost against without a chance last week, but gave a lot of trouble in the away game? He changed one of his rubbers to something slow and thin, basically a classic rubber.

I can't match these players in this game, I don't have the ability to outplace or overpower them, and my slow loops are useless. I honestly hit one or two extremely nice spin loops, and got them both back like it was nothing. Guess I'm not good enough to get out of this level, regardless of whether I can compete with the next level up.

 

[NextLevel]

Had another hard experience in league tonight, but I think I'm seeing a pattern here.
I have trouble against certain people, one profile being someone playing with classic rubber (Sriver or equivalent).
There's enough grip on it to produce actual backspin, and not enough to have a problem with my spin. Also, when they attack with it, there's less speed and spin than I expect, so I dump the return in the net.
Now if it's dead rubber, I can handle it. Don't like how I have to play then but I'll manage.
But actual working, relatively fresh classic inverted, I honestly don't know how to impose my game on.
Last season, there was one woman, not particularly strong at anything but her backhand which she could just slam through any spin or speed I gave her. That was Sriver.
Today, I lost to a guy who I had a lot of trouble with in the home game earlier, he plays Vari Spin and almost completely ignored my spin.
The guy who I basically dumped all my blocks in the net against the other week, classic rubber.
The guy who I lost against without a chance last week, but gave a lot of trouble in the away game? He changed one of his rubbers to something slow and thin, basically a classic rubber.

I can't match these players in this game, I don't have the ability to outplace or overpower them, and my slow loops are useless. I honestly hit one or two extremely nice spin loops, and got them both back like it was nothing. Guess I'm not good enough to get out of this level, regardless of whether I can compete with the next level up.

Placement is always important as is service when playing opponents where nothing seems to be working. You need to find out what happens when you make them move and create new angles by putting the ball to the short forehand or the wide backhand. Means work for you as well as for them, but at least, it breaks you away from the belief that nothing is working. That said, do you have a system for measuring the playing level of these opponents? IT can be frustrating to play players who look like they should be losing to you more than they do while not realizing that their objective playing levvel is higher than yours.

 

[NetProphet]

Had another hard experience in league tonight, but I think I'm seeing a pattern here.
I have trouble against certain people, one profile being someone playing with classic rubber (Sriver or equivalent).
There's enough grip on it to produce actual backspin, and not enough to have a problem with my spin. Also, when they attack with it, there's less speed and spin than I expect, so I dump the return in the net.
Now if it's dead rubber, I can handle it. Don't like how I have to play then but I'll manage.
But actual working, relatively fresh classic inverted, I honestly don't know how to impose my game on.
Last season, there was one woman, not particularly strong at anything but her backhand which she could just slam through any spin or speed I gave her. That was Sriver.
Today, I lost to a guy who I had a lot of trouble with in the home game earlier, he plays Vari Spin and almost completely ignored my spin.
The guy who I basically dumped all my blocks in the net against the other week, classic rubber.
The guy who I lost against without a chance last week, but gave a lot of trouble in the away game? He changed one of his rubbers to something slow and thin, basically a classic rubber.

I can't match these players in this game, I don't have the ability to outplace or overpower them, and my slow loops are useless. I honestly hit one or two extremely nice spin loops, and got them both back like it was nothing. Guess I'm not good enough to get out of this level, regardless of whether I can compete with the next level up.

I reckon you're overthinking this and overcomplicating things.
Think outside the equipment. Really.
If it's just less spin and speed on their shot then they could theoretically do that with any rubber so forget about equipment for a minute.
If a bit less spin and a bit less speed is really a tactic on their part (rather than all they're capable of) then find another way to beat them.
But also, it's a roadmap to your development because now you know what to work on to beat them.
A slower less spinny shot coming back is food and drink if you play a safer placement game for example.
Also if they're not using a lot of spin then I imag they're flat hitting a fair bit.
- Keep the ball low as you can
- push short looking for opportunities
- slow spinny loops have to land deep
- find angles off the side of the table with topspin and backspin shots to move them around as much as you can.
Get advice from others too and implement your game plan 100%. This means do not allow yourself to drift to old habits or not thinking during the game.
Then you'll take them, as long as the ability gap isn't huge between you and them.

But you say you don't have the ability to outplace or overpower them, and your slow loops are useless.
Why do you feel you can't outplace them? If their shot comes at you slow then placement should be easy for you to manage.
The power can come after you've forced them into a mistake.
And the slow loops are far more effective when they go deep, landing them mid table is perfect for flat hitters, so that's placement again on your part and you shouldn't do the slow spinny loops until you can land them deep.
Unless these guys are really levels above you in terms of ability right now I think you can solve things with some focused practice and training I've the next few months.
In short, don't despair. Embrace the challenge, roll up the sleeves and kick some ass. 👊