Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[latej]

Footwork

;-) I know I've already posted this, but the sound of his steps (and the way) is simply the most impressive moment of the whole movie ;-)

 

[blahness]

So I'm trying to switch to a BH dominant style to really work on my BH. As mentioned before, service receives with the BH has been my biggest issue, so I looking for some advice.

I think I'm better with BH pushes and BH receives of fast long services, but I seem to be having more trouble with the half long and surprisingly, also the loose ones. You know, the ones that are kinda high, clearly long, but not particularly fast. Thats the kind of stuff I usually kill with my FH, but I make a lot of mistakes when trying to do the same with my BH. Should I perhaps just not try to kill it? Or should I work on my footwork so I can give myself a bit more space to kill it?

The short ones you need to step in with the right foot and then rotate the body clockwise through the ball to kill them. Without the body rotation i find it super difficult to do it. It might also be easier to mentally treat half long and short ones as 'chiquita' balls rather than full on BH topspin balls, this kind of mindset actually helped me quite a lot. Because chiquita works for short and half long balls pretty well.

 

[Archosaurus]

Hit a bit more today, no usual partner, but there were some decent players.

One good H3 user showed me a bit how to properly hit with my setup. According to him maybe every 4th or 5th is good, but the others are "too brushed and slow". I don't yet fully appreciate what's the technical difference between the good and the bad shot, but the good shot does feel more solid in the hand. I think I'm starting to understand the feeling difference between that kind of good shot and just a pure drive but it's not very clear yet.
He also said I use a bit too much shoulder, and to get lower on my shots. My counter drive is ok according to him and I get enough power on that.

We played some sets after and I lost all 4, but they weren't far. High-level players have a tendency to disrespect my serve and will happily net 2 or 3 trying to flick or flip it. I reckon they figure a really low level player isn't gonna be able to serve at all, so they can just attack them all.
I'll then change to a lower spin version, or one with more sidespin, and they will throw it out. After that their receives become very timid, usually pushes which are a bit popped up that I can attack.
I'll mix in some long serves around that point for hopefully a few weak returns. They'll kill half of them, but on the other half it gets me in the rally and I have a chance for a wide angle.

I even managed to backhand flick one of his serves from the middle into his elbow which got me a winner, but it's way too low % to go for it except as a gamble. I kind of need to condition the other player to believe I don't have a flick at all so they give me a softer serve for me to pop up with my push, and only then can I actually flick it once it's easier for me.

So I can get 8 or 9 points in a set even if otherwise I'd be in trouble. I think he also took it slightly easy against me.

Against similar or a bit higher level old timers who are less impulsive and prefer to control the serves, there's no way I'm going over 6 points, usually it's more like 3 or 4 at best.

After I hit with a (much) lower level defensive player and focused on getting his backspin over the net with just my forearm. Maybe a little more than 50% success rate. Need to practice more until it's closer to 100%.

 

[Der_Echte]

Archo, to play Chinese style attacking FH with H#, it requires a VERY FAST BAT and EXPLOSION to impact that is driven by max explosive use of the whole body full commitment.

I think he is trying to tell you that you do not generate nearly enough bat speed to play H3 effectively as a Chinese style high power offensive player.

There are other ways to use H3 that are not CNT style and are perfectly fine.

I know a dude who was top 1 percent in USA who mostly used H3 on FH to soft counter topspin with a spin avoiding side impact soft hand not so fast bat.
H3 is outstanding easy to do that kind of shot. Dude was killing other 2300 rate attacking monsters doing that shot.

He so consistently got the ball on the table right where he wanted it and watched opponents whiff at the ball. His slow timing of ball, unpredictable side and corkscrew spin made opponents try for max power shots off time and out of position.

It was hilarious watching my friend do this with H3 playing it basically the opposite of how it was intended.

 

[Archosaurus]

Training again today. Partner didn't show so no footage. Day mostly consisted of blocking and looping. I'm still spinning the ball too much, but I think I'm inching towards a better shot. Maybe 2% of my shots during the day were proper based on how fast they came out vs how little I put in and how much spin the ball had. Sometimes it just cracks.

Most of the time I'm doing kinda slow loops and during one point in a round robin the other guy blocked it back 4 times before I got through him. I still won the point, but sheesh! The winning shot was a much more forward driven shot aimed right on the line at his elbow.

Archo, to play Chinese style attacking FH with H#, it requires a VERY FAST BAT and EXPLOSION to impact that is driven by max explosive use of the whole body full commitment.

I think he is trying to tell you that you do not generate nearly enough bat speed to play H3 effectively as a Chinese style high power offensive player.

There are other ways to use H3 that are not CNT style and are perfectly fine.

I know a dude who was top 1 percent in USA who mostly used H3 on FH to soft counter topspin with a spin avoiding side impact soft hand not so fast bat.
H3 is outstanding easy to do that kind of shot. Dude was killing other 2300 rate attacking monsters doing that shot.

He so consistently got the ball on the table right where he wanted it and watched opponents whiff at the ball. His slow timing of ball, unpredictable side and corkscrew spin made opponents try for max power shots off time and out of position.

It was hilarious watching my friend do this with H3 playing it basically the opposite of how it was intended.

Yeah he is talking about playing at Division 1 and State level. A play level I'll be lucky to *ever* reach. I think 2300 is slightly higher than that play level, but it's similar.

He says that the players at that level will be able to easily counterloop those kind of shots, and players a little below can punch some of them. I don't have the placement and touch to be able to play like that at that level (or at all ).

Another guy told me my blade is not good for learning the proper contact. He suggested something stiffer. He says it's good for looping and definitely usable with H3 but it's too flexible and encourages hitting the ball how I already hit it, with a more spin-biased shot.

I don't know if that's correct or not but I do think my shot with W81 is much more speed-biased so maybe there is something to it.

 

[Haito]

Another guy told me my blade is not good for learning the proper contact. He suggested something stiffer. He says it's good for looping and definitely usable with H3 but it's too flexible and encourages hitting the ball how I already hit it, with a more spin-biased shot.

I don't know if that's correct or not but I do think my shot with W81 is much more speed-biased so maybe there is something to it.

Nah B2 is more than stiff enough. The only thing left is to practice. I would maybe only suggest using a rubber which you can brush through. Like 39 version of the rubber, and boot it to hell. If you are willing to drop of prov, use 38. I think Loki R7 would be lovely for u. Its much easier to activate.

I have not played against u so, I am not entirely sure how good u are, and if u can activate your current rubber. But based on the footage that was available to me, based on the visual AND SOUND queues, I think it would be fair to suggest u try something softer and / or more lively.

 

[Haito]

I would advise getting some coaching in person from a good coach, it does not have to be a good player, a good coach is enough. Someone who understands the core of the game. Might be worth considering dropping some money to getting training in some other area, like a camp or something.

It will shoot you sky high in the skill department, and then u can train those skills with robot.

 

[Haito]

If I were u and had some spare cash, I would save up for training under some reputable coach.

The thing is... Table tennis is a lot about feeling. You know how good somebody is not by how his strokes look, but based on how your racket feels. Its heavy? A lot of spin. You feel nothing? No spin. Racket pushed back? A lot of speed. Nothing? No pace.

The subtle feeling you get on your fingers is what shows you if somebody is making progress. One can make a movement that looks "woah", and fake the ball arc. But when you touch it was an empty balloon. Especially on video, when you cannot see the spin.

 

[Archosaurus]

@Haito

I won't take off the current rubber, not before it's worn out at least. Plenty of performance still left in this one. Would be a shame to. After that I will reconsider options.

People around me who play at a decent level don't think I need to change the model, but they do suggest 39 or 40 hardness just for statistical scoring chance in games if I'm concerned about performance. The 41 has very high kill shot performance, but those kind of shots go through people around my level anyway, so it's unnecessary in hindsight, so I think I agree with their advice. I'll probably go to a 40 when I buy my next sheet and see from there. It will be more reliable in less ideal situations and a bit easier to feel. Maybe a little more elastic in the low power range but that's hard to say sometimes.

I did learn a little bit how to keep pace in the ball even when the other blocker is inconsistent and blocks it with an awkward high angle, so I may be able to use that with my usual partner who has a similar block. I had to adjust for more forward drive because the balls were practically dropping in front of me lol.

Hard disagree about spin not being visible on video and fake ball arcs or whatever. Dipping toes into magical thinking a little.

 

[Haito]

Hard disagree about spin not being visible on video and fake ball arcs or whatever. Dipping toes into magical thinking a little.

I will see If I can record a video, demonstrating the principle.

 

[Archosaurus]

I will see If I can record a video, demonstrating the principle.

Go ahead, maybe there's a miscommunication. I just hear a ton of stuff like this in my field from hobbyists. Usually it's people using the wrong words, though.

 

[Haito]

Go ahead, maybe there's a miscommunication. I just hear a ton of stuff like this in my field from hobbyists. Usually it's people using the wrong words, though.

The key difference is, a lot of people generate some spin, but for example @NextLevel make enough spin that you have to press it down. On video its indistinguishable. But only the second kind is useful.

 

[Archosaurus]

The key difference is, a lot of people generate some spin, but for example @NextLevel make enough spin that you have to press it down. On video its indistinguishable. But only the second kind is useful.

I'd be wary of using words like "indistinguishable" especially when talking about something that you can just calculate to almost 100% accuracy.

I don't know how much spin I objectively make, but I get told it's heavier than usual. Part of it might be the speed being a bit lower than usual so it's potentially just a perception thing. Based on the angle the ball leaves the opponent's racket, my faster shots also have more spin than my slower ones. People will block the slower ones back on, but it's pretty rare a club player gets the big ones back on unless they're really ready for it. Would be nice to make that my standard shot.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, like I thought, Haifu National Black does indeed soften the sponge. They all seem to saturate at basically the same amount of softening, but the amount needed seems to vary. This may indicate how strong of an effect you can get before it saturates.

The sponge side softened by 3.0 O and 3.5 A per 2 layers of Black on a 41A non-Neo blue sponge H3, which is basically exactly what I got for National White on every China rubber I tried it on including this same one when I initially boosted it.

The main difference in this regard is that National white will take only 1~ layer to achieve that then there is little to no further softening, while the normal Seamoon takes more than 1 layer.
I expect the same from Black as White.

Would be interesting to measure a softening per ml but that's not how most people apply them so it's not super relevant. I applied by draining off the brush to get most of the excess off then brushing with both sides until even.

 

[M51]

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[dingyibvs]

Well, like I thought, Haifu National Black does indeed soften the sponge. They all seem to saturate at basically the same amount of softening, but the amount needed seems to vary. This may indicate how strong of an effect you can get before it saturates.

The sponge side softened by 3.0 O and 3.5 A per 2 layers of Black on a 41A non-Neo blue sponge H3, which is basically exactly what I got for National White on every China rubber I tried it on including this same one when I initially boosted it.

The main difference in this regard is that National white will take only 1~ layer to achieve that then there is little to no further softening, while the normal Seamoon takes more than 1 layer.
I expect the same from Black as White.

Would be interesting to measure a softening per ml but that's not how most people apply them so it's not super relevant. I applied by draining off the brush to get most of the excess off then brushing with both sides until even.

It's easier to control booster usage by weight. Some of my clubmates use a scale to help them apply a consistent amount of booster, so you could probably do the same with softening by grams, or grams/mm^2 if you really wanna be precise since not all rubbers are the same size uncut.

 

[Archosaurus]

It's easier to control booster usage by weight. Some of my clubmates use a scale to help them apply a consistent amount of booster, so you could probably do the same with softening by grams, or grams/mm^2 if you really wanna be precise since not all rubbers are the same size uncut.

Yeah. How many people actually do that, though? The elasticity and softening pretty much caps, so you don't need to be uber precise IME.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yeah. How many people actually do that, though? The elasticity and softening pretty much caps, so you don't need to be uber precise IME.

Well I don't bother, but some of my clubmates do that even for gluing lol. Also, while the softening/expansion caps, the booster effect can be independent of those things. A re-boosted H3 feels very different from an off-boost one even if they're of similar hardness and you didn't get any expansion after re-boosting.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well I don't bother, but some of my clubmates do that even for gluing lol. Also, while the softening/expansion caps, the booster effect can be independent of those things. A re-boosted H3 feels very different from an off-boost one even if they're of similar hardness and you didn't get any expansion after re-boosting.

Sure, I just think it caps a lot sooner than people think. Haifu claims 1-2 layers for +8.5% elasticity at NTP after 12-24h. They also claim it lasts one week (probably 8.5%).