Damien Éloi: Are the top players’ rubbers different?

[Dr Evil]

... If Ma Long will play with D09C as all of us he for sure will beat Timo Boll...

Not a chance, not unless he practiced and played with it for quite a while. Even then I wouldn't bet on it. Ovtcharov couldn't make the switch to H3, and Ma Long might not be able to switch away from it. He'd still be a strong pro player, but might never get back to the very top. His short game would require major revisions, not to mention his serve, counters, etc.

 

[piligrim]

“I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skillful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones.”​

― Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Not a chance, not unless he practiced and played with it for quite a while. Even then I wouldn't bet on it. Ovtcharov couldn't make the switch to H3, and Ma Long might not be able to switch away from it. He'd still be a strong pro player, but might never get back to the very top. His short game would require major revisions, not to mention his serve, counters, etc.

for those that love H3 on the forehand.
you can't replace H3 at the moment
maybe in the future - who knows, but surely not at the moment.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

“I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skillful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones.”​

― Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet

and this is clearly why it is important to have youth coming on as leaders and asking the elders to step aside and enjoy retirement (especially those that grasping on all positions in tt federations across the world).

I can't imagine when I will ever stop learning for tomorrow.
Especially in the world of sport.

 

[lodro]

I don't know
You don't know
We don't know ..............and the ones that DO KNOW they won't tell.

I stick to my original comment 😁 😁 😁

 

[Gtsnake]

I have no clue about golf so can't argue about it

Not trying to argue anything. I'm just saying that professionals are much more sensitive to their equipment and are much more demanding. Therefore they cannot be competitive while using everyday mortal people equipment.

So what Im trying to say is. It's no big deal that pros use different equipment than everyone else. They are on such a stratospheric level that they require special gear.

 

[Gtsnake]

Pretty sure basketball balls are the ones you can buy in a store even in pro games. Or footballs. These analogies doesn't give anything.
Tiger might be picky but John Daly was drunk all the time...

It's not about being picky. It's about how sensitive they are to the equipment and how they can utilize it. Where you and I are sensitive to a superficial degree but nowhere near professional level.

 

[piligrim]

Not trying to argue anything. I'm just saying that professionals are much more sensitive to their equipment and are much more demanding. Therefore they cannot be competitive while using everyday mortal people equipment.

So what Im trying to say is. It's no big deal that pros use different equipment than everyone else. They are on such a stratospheric level that they require special gear.

So start from age 5 till around 17-18 they play with regular rackets and not sensitive to equipment and once get to certain level and find sponsors they become sensitive and not able same as before use regular rackets? This sound weird

 

[golden_son]

So start from age 5 till around 17-18 they play with regular rackets and not sensitive to equipment and once get to certain level and find sponsors they become sensitive and not able same as before use regular rackets? This sound weird

It's not that pro players couldn't use commercial equipment and be successful. But there is a mutually beneficial relationship between the sponsors and players and part of that is the players getting equipment that is tweaked to their specifications. Heck, many of the new rubbers that companies release come out of the process of working to meet pro players' specific tastes.

 

[tzifos]

So start from age 5 till around 17-18 they play with regular rackets and not sensitive to equipment and once get to certain level and find sponsors they become sensitive and not able same as before use regular rackets? This sound weird

They get sponsorships at very early stages if they are better than other kids of their age and based on their talents. As I wrote the sponsorship has different levels, so at first they just get a very big discount and shirts for tournaments, then some free rubbers and 2-3 blades and so on.

 

[ttarc]

Sorry not familiar who is Tiger Wood, Fan Sigi and not familiar with Blue Ribbon story.

I have another question. Lets say all TT brands cancel this tuning services and don't make anymore personal blades and rubbers so all elite players should buy from store. They wont be able to play? I really don't understand is rubbers we use so bad so even pro players who train 10 hours every day from age 5 not able to use this rubbers?

That's not the point. These top 10 pros can and will win the matches that they should win with stock rubbers but they might struggle (more or less) when facing opponents closer to their level.
I see and feel this even on my level: commercial vs. provincial vs. national H3(N) makes a difference even if it's just a placebo effect. It's not. For me the differences are small but noticeable, not game deciding on my level. On their level it is or can be the tiny bit that decides a match.
You don't want to blame anything or anyone else for your defeat but yourself.

“I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose...​

― Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study in Scarlet

It is not an empty attic. That's what - now we are going way OT - some pseudoscientists will tell you is the case (blank slate or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa) but it is not. It is much more complicated. Genes, nurture, training etc. At these high levels (regardless if we are talking about sports, arts or science) these miniscule differences (whatever the cause) can make a difference.

 

[lodro]

That's not the point. These top 10 pros can and will win the matches that they should win with stock rubbers but they might struggle (more or less) when facing opponents closer to their level.
I see and feel this even on my level: commercial vs. provincial vs. national H3(N) makes a difference even if it's just a placebo effect. It's not. For me the differences are small but noticeable, not game deciding on my level. On their level it is or can be the tiny bit that decides a match.
You don't want to blame anything or anyone else for your defeat but yourself.



It is not an empty attic. That's what - now we are going way OT - some pseudoscientists will tell you is the case (blank slate or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa) but it is not. It is much more complicated. Genes, nurture, training etc. At these high levels (regardless if we are talking about sports, arts or science) these miniscule differences (whatever the cause) can make a difference.

Another book, "The selfish gene"" by Richard Dawkins will claim that the gene is mainly interested in self preservation and longevity. It does not care at all how good you are at playing ping pong.

 

[Gtsnake]

So start from age 5 till around 17-18 they play with regular rackets and not sensitive to equipment and once get to certain level and find sponsors they become sensitive and not able same as before use regular rackets? This sound weird

You do know people can improve over time and training right?

 

[nag_mjzlc]

But why would they not sell it to the public? Makes no sense.

sense.

My sense is that the rubbers made for sponsored pro players could have been chosen carefully optimised for the respective player as per his/her playing style and according to the blade they use. For ex: h3 version used by ma long might vary compared to h3 version used by wang manyu according to their respective playing style and blade in order to attain peak performance. I remember watching a video of xu xin where he mentions of changing rubbers very frequently every few weeks, which only tells us those rubbers don't have to be tuned for durability.

On the other hand, rubbers produced for general public despite categorised as commercial, provincial and national have to be made keeping the durability of the rubber in mind otherwise they would not be economically viable for both seller and customer.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It's not about being picky. It's about how sensitive they are to the equipment and how they can utilize it. Where you and I are sensitive to a superficial degree but nowhere near professional level.

talking about balls,
I wonder which amateur players will do roundness/hardness test on balls before the match and be really picky on choosing "good balls"

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

My sense is that the rubbers made for sponsored pro players could have been chosen carefully optimised for the respective player as per his/her playing style and the blade. For ex: h3 version used by ma long might vary compared to h3 version used by wang manyu according to their respective playing style and blade in order to attain peak performance. I remember watching a video of xu xin where he mentions of changing rubbers very frequently every few weeks, which only tells us those rubbers don't have to be tuned for durability.

On the other hand, rubbers produced for general public despite categorised as commercial, provincial and national have to be made keeping the durability of the rubber in mind otherwise they would not economically viable for both seller and customer.

rubber - blade pairing is indeed a thing.
2012, I got a player sponsored by Xiom and we send in what she used at that time.
the engineers got back to me, saying that they won't recommend such pairing and made recommendations.
end of the day, they built a customized blade for her, as well as 3 other blades that they recommended and with few rubbers and gave a recommendation pairing configuration.

this was a player not in the top 100 or top 200 and Xiom made a customized blade for her.
but the key message was pairing recommendations (in lines of which rubbers performs better with which blade (material))

 

[canonFH]

I'll add my anecdotal experience. About 3 months ago, I was getting coached by a acquiantance of an Indian player sponsored by Xiom. The player receives a lot of test equipment from the brand and passes some of it to the coach.

I play with ZQH-90, the coach also had the same blade passed on by the player (I don't know why Xiom sent Joola equipment). I played with it for a couple of days.

My blade weighs 88, coach's 87. There was a small difference in how both felt with the same rubbers. Coach's blade felt better and made me more consistent on certain risky shots. I tried to buy it off of him but he didn't sell, which is a shame because he basically only uses it to feed multiball.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'll add my anecdotal experience. About 3 months ago, I was getting coached by a acquiantance of an Indian player sponsored by Xiom. The player receives a lot of test equipment from the brand and passes some of it to the coach.

I play with ZQH-90, the coach also had the same blade passed on by the player (I don't know why Xiom sent Joola equipment). I played with it for a couple of days.

My blade weighs 88, coach's 87. There was a small difference in how both felt with the same rubbers. Coach's blade felt better and made me more consistent on certain risky shots. I tried to buy it off of him but he didn't sell, which is a shame because he basically only uses it to feed multiball.

we got some blade experts on TTD, so I won't act like I am one of them.
but from what I know, when the players request certain specs, the brands can do customizable things like - the amount of time they bake the blade in terms of moisture removal (to make it more stiff etc) and then to the amount of glue they use, and we haven't even talked about the ply/ actual material they use.

so it isn't just weight, stiffness, but rather how they actually build/assemble to give different results.
Its so technical, and the technology / skill set being blade building is actually very interesting.

of course for the player, we only talk about we want low arc, and more power at mid zone etc. and the engineers will know what to tweak for us.

 

[piligrim]

I'll add my anecdotal experience. About 3 months ago, I was getting coached by a acquiantance of an Indian player sponsored by Xiom. The player receives a lot of test equipment from the brand and passes some of it to the coach.

I play with ZQH-90, the coach also had the same blade passed on by the player (I don't know why Xiom sent Joola equipment). I played with it for a couple of days.

My blade weighs 88, coach's 87. There was a small difference in how both felt with the same rubbers. Coach's blade felt better and made me more consistent on certain risky shots. I tried to buy it off of him but he didn't sell, which is a shame because he basically only uses it to feed multiball.

If you buy 2 blades in store there is high chance one will feel better than other. They all different

 

[Loop Lob Smash]

for elite, every fine detail is a magic moment.
Same thing as you can't give F1 car drivers or any race car drivers you average Joe car tyres.

equipment is actually so technical, I don't expect much to understand it.
when pros spec equipment - they spec it to the tee.
ie, when they want a 97 gram blade, they don't want 96 or 98.

gluing is very specific too. The longest I know is a 3 hour glue job (not factoring in the boosting period, just white glue part only).
the feeling on the equipment cannot be explained to amateurs.
just like I can't control or feel the ball like Messi and he would never be able to explain to me the feeling or how to control the ball.
or can I pick up flaws like Curry in this video
there are really fine details that elite sees and can adapt too, but they also prefer certain equipment to suit their needs. This is also why some players do not use equipment from brands that sponsor them.

Only elite professionals have such finely tuned senses.
Where have I heard this story before?