Developing player with some potential :)

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
It's funny that you mention the leg pushing thing, because it was you who gave me similar advice and as you saw the very next session I had, it made some difference.

I can only speak for myself here, but I've had many many misconceptions about technique and getting these perceptions kind of corrected or developed did make a difference to me. Though this understanding is ever evolving and what one thought was right before may very well change. I played with terrible technique for years, I even unknowingly played with an antispinracket for years which for sure messed my progress up. But I wasn't that interested in TT the first few years.

My changes in training environment made the biggest differences, but having a better understanding of what to do did help me a lot. With that said, my technique is never going to be perfect and I'm kind of done with the obsession over improvement.

But misunderstandings and preconceptions can absolutely get in the way. NL recently talked about the "taking the ball where it shows up" and that really revealed this notion that I've had to try to setup perfectly etc.

We should be careful with too rigid and too detailed approaches imo. It all depends on so much..
This sport is damn hard.
It's really funny, but this was the video I was trying to find for you at the time and I finally found it:


Obviously, we all want to and ideally should play shots in balance, but balance is not the same as being in a set position and being precisely ready. Balance means having good posture and co-ordination to play a shot, and you can have this if you have good arm positioning to take a swing on the ball and the physical strength to make it with the legs. Most footwork drills are tied to this in some way, and as you get more advanced, you connect more and more movements to keep you ready to play the ball even when you are supposed to be out of position. In fact, it is interesting to watch Dima and Jorgic closely and even Pitchford sometimes and to try to see whether they are out of position or baiting you to think they are out of position and daring you to put the ball where you think they can't get a great shot from and then they kill it with their backhand.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Richie
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2023
111
56
226
I just have to say, I read your comments about my technique and take it to consideration, but its not really something I will use much effort to alter at this current moment. For a period, I used to be mindful of dropping non-playing arm in each forehand shot, but I dong think details like this is something I have to worry so much about. I have a main coach that instructs me and he is much more focused on how I move my feet and says that my basic technique/stroke has developed into a sufficient level at this point in time. We have to remember that table tennis is a game to win or lose, and I lose to people that has much worse basic technique than me. I still try to incrementally improve technique though. I want to share a video from some of the best players in my area. I know some of these players are or have been in the top 50 in Norway, and all of them certainly are in the top 100. Not to be mean to those players or anything, but they all have their own peculiarities in their strokes, but the main theme is that they have acceleration on contact, all of them move properly in position and they have good timing -- the stroke itself is really not that important as I view it.


You also have to consider that we all have different bodies. Some have long legs, some have long back, some have short legs and long arms, some people are heavy because of carrying explosive muscle, some people are heavy because they are ready for a nuclear winter ;-) ... some people have a strong butt to go low, some people are not that tall and have to be lighter on their feet. You see this on the professional level as well. Liam Pitchford has perfected this whip-motion ending at his writst because he is really not that muscular. I mean, look at the forehand of Quadri Aruna. Are you going to tell him that his body is off balance? Theoretically, you could say that it is. Truls Moregardh has wide shoulders so he has made a success of slapping the ball flatly with his stiff racket and the use of upper body. I have a strong upper body, so I have a lot of explosiveness in my deltoid muscle.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dingyibvs
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Feb 2023
36
20
70
It isn't really the racket speed, and it doesn't quite work as you said. In fact, with a slower racket, you can challenge your opponent with less aggressive play because your touch game could be better in some ways.. The main issue is to work on your backspin game, it isn't that hard to hit backspin balls once you train against them a lot, especially if you have the lower body usage. I just straight arm and elbow snap most of them. The problem for most players who learn is that it takes time to learn the timing and some people don't have the patience. For me, I am generally stronger vs backspin than vs topspin, so I enjoy playing against it (not chop per se, but I like people who push long and think that my missing is because they have a good push, after a few points, that changes quickly unless they have a really strong block).

The one thing I will say is that attacking backspin balls as well as adding spin to a ball is easier with a slower racket and that was the main reason why I stayed with wooden rackets for a long time. I think having seen your actual game, if you can't force yourself to learn to loop backspin or play against choppers with your current racket, consider either putting sticky rubber on your forehand or using all wood for a short time. I would probably do the former before the latter. But in any case, taking backspin aggressively takes a while (3 months to a year for full maturity of reading the spin and adjusting appropriately, especially between lighter and heavier spin) but is something that someone should pursue aggressively.
Thank you, yes I need to work on backspin especially in game play. One thing that is an issue of mine combined with your feedback is also to move into position before I get the ball, often my ball quality also depend on my position. It is in fact easier to do the right movement when you're positioned correctly. When the backspin has got some sidespin aswell I think it ads another dimension which is sometimes harder to grasp. Hmm I think it might be a mental thing for me against backspin I should just force my self to try and lift the ball even though I might loose some matches now and then, maybe a slower setup would accommodate that but again shouldn't matter than much.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
Thank you, yes I need to work on backspin especially in game play. One thing that is an issue of mine combined with your feedback is also to move into position before I get the ball, often my ball quality also depend on my position. It is in fact easier to do the right movement when you're positioned correctly. When the backspin has got some sidespin aswell I think it ads another dimension which is sometimes harder to grasp. Hmm I think it might be a mental thing for me against backspin I should just force my self to try and lift the ball even though I might loose some matches now and then, maybe a slower setup would accommodate that but again shouldn't matter than much.
lifting is a concept that gets people into trouble. You rarely need to lift backspin. You just need to "shape" it or swing round it and see the effect. Most heavy chop (and even heavy topspin) is looped with some sidespin to avoid the main spin. In fact if you loop closer to the tip if your racket and do a full circular stroke (not an upward one), it is somewhat inevitable.

The main thing is to awing round the ball (it might feel like hooking) a bit to a finishing position of salute. Again don't think lift. Think swing round the ball to salute. Because people who think lift swing upwards while you can really hit with more variation and power in my experience if you swing round the ball.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Feb 2023
36
20
70
lifting is a concept that gets people into trouble. You rarely need to lift backspin. You just need to "shape" it or swing round it and see the effect. Most heavy chop (and even heavy topspin) is looped with some sidespin to avoid the main spin. In fact if you loop closer to the tip if your racket and do a full circular stroke (not an upward one), it is somewhat inevitable.

The main thing is to awing round the ball (it might feel like hooking) a bit to a finishing position of salute. Again don't think lift. Think swing round the ball to salute. Because people who think lift swing upwards while you can really hit with more variation and power in my experience if you swing round the ball.
Why is the wording lifting wrong? Shouldn't you be able to do both things? When you go over the ball with speed it is possible to "negate" the amount of backspin there is on the ball or maybe I don't understand fully.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
I just have to say, I read your comments about my technique and take it to consideration, but its not really something I will use much effort to alter at this current moment. For a period, I used to be mindful of dropping non-playing arm in each forehand shot, but I dong think details like this is something I have to worry so much about. I have a main coach that instructs me and he is much more focused on how I move my feet and says that my basic technique/stroke has developed into a sufficient level at this point in time. We have to remember that table tennis is a game to win or lose, and I lose to people that has much worse basic technique than me. I still try to incrementally improve technique though. I want to share a video from some of the best players in my area. I know some of these players are or have been in the top 50 in Norway, and all of them certainly are in the top 100. Not to be mean to those players or anything, but they all have their own peculiarities in their strokes, but the main theme is that they have acceleration on contact, all of them move properly in position and they have good timing -- the stroke itself is really not that important as I view it.


You also have to consider that we all have different bodies. Some have long legs, some have long back, some have short legs and long arms, some people are heavy because of carrying explosive muscle, some people are heavy because they are ready for a nuclear winter ;-) ... some people have a strong butt to go low, some people are not that tall and have to be lighter on their feet. You see this on the professional level as well. Liam Pitchford has perfected this whip-motion ending at his writst because he is really not that muscular. I mean, look at the forehand of Quadri Aruna. Are you going to tell him that his body is off balance? Theoretically, you could say that it is. Truls Moregardh has wide shoulders so he has made a success of slapping the ball flatly with his stiff racket and the use of upper body. I have a strong upper body, so I have a lot of explosiveness in my deltoid muscle.

Do you think you will ever beat those players with the pristine technical path you are on? Why or why not?

Everyone including Ma Long and Timo Boll has lost to someone with worse technique than them. Table tennis is not a beauty contest.

But what is the purpose of good technique if it isn't winning points? Or generating more powerful shots? I get the focus on movement but using technical diversity and a pristine game as a reason not to develop acceleration in your shots in an interesting position. As an adult learner, no one can spend forever training, one has to find weapons and not spend eternity building out their game as if they are going to the Olympics in 20 years time.

I started training TT at the age of 34 or so. I was lucky to work with 2 great coaches, one who trained as an adult so he could discuss his experience with me, and another who is a national level coach who runs a TT education service and is very deeply philosophical about technique and life. The two of them balance my approach to TT as I can see the difference between a very pragmatic adult learner perspective and the world class TT training perspective.

TT is so technically complicated that you can pretend to be doing the right thing and never develop the essence of good technique. Those players who you are saying you dont want to play like all have the essence of good technique. You can have it too and do a few things differently. Or you can do everything somewhat textbook, fail to have the essence, lose matches but be proud of your game. I have some friends who like to put down European technique and everything that isn't Chinese.

That said, you are not the first person who has your position on TT improvement and it is a respectable one even if i think it is not practical for an adult learner who is serious about competing at higher levels while having a regular job/life. You have a coach and it will be interesting to see whether you will be grateful for the path he has put you on in a few years. Let us revisit in 2 or 3 years.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
Why is the wording lifting wrong? Shouldn't you be able to do both things? When you go over the ball with speed it is possible to "negate" the amount of backspin there is on the ball or maybe I don't understand fully.
Lifting gives the impression that the backspin requires you to lift when most players compensate with swing path and racket angle.

Having more variation in table tennis is almost always a good thing. The question is whether what you are doing ans how you think about a specific problem is working for you.

If something is working for you ay the level you want to succeed at, continue to do it. If lifting makes you play aggressively against the backspin ball, by all means do it. But just about every player who I know who plays aggressively vs backspin doesn't think about it as a lifting exercise. They just tell you to open your racket a bit more, find the contact point and execute your full stroke.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrighty67
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2023
111
56
226
That said, you are not the first person who has your position on TT improvement and it is a respectable one even if i think it is not practical for an adult learner who is serious about competing at higher levels while having a regular job/life. You have a coach and it will be interesting to see whether you will be grateful for the path he has put you on in a few years. Let us revisit in 2 or 3 years.
Who knows, he might have marked me as someone who does not have "potential" and are keeping me in the club to get payed. Or he might be flustered by my decision to start playing with chinese tacky rubbers (before I went to hybrid) a few months back and is ambivalent about the matter. I trusted this pingsunday youtube channel that advertised learning players with a flexible hard blade and chinese tacky rubbers. After switching to Rakza Z, I absolutely love the way I can carry the ball throught the flex of the blade. I have an Avalox P500 that I plan to start using next, which is a tiny bit faster and a tiny bit less flexible. It may be an old style of table tennis which makes things look different, idk.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Feb 2023
36
20
70
Lifting gives the impression that the backspin requires you to lift when most players compensate with swing path and racket angle.

Having more variation in table tennis is almost always a good thing. The question is whether what you are doing ans how you think about a specific problem is working for you.

If something is working for you ay the level you want to succeed at, continue to do it. If lifting makes you play aggressively against the backspin ball, by all means do it. But just about every player who I know who plays aggressively vs backspin doesn't think about it as a lifting exercise. They just tell you to open your racket a bit more, find the contact point and execute your full stroke.
Is the motion the same regardless of what spin your receiving, the only thing you have to adjust is racket angle?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
Who knows, he might have marked me as someone who does not have "potential" and are keeping me in the club to get payed.
Well, no one knows for sure. The thing is that coaches have egos (including myself) and some learners can get seduced by captivating coaches. Or like myself, some players might take the first coach they see before realizing that they need to find the coach with the best track record of improving players.

My very first coach was chopper. He was the highest level player in the club where I trained at regularly. But his philosophy towards improving adults didn't match where the game was going. Most of the good players he coached used pips. His technical concept was eccentric.

My second coach, who is the coach I said had a pragmatic adult learner perspective, eventually told me that I had too much physical talent even with my arthritis to waste time doing things that didn't win points. He had already coached two adults to 2000 level so I joined him. Some aspects of my technical game I wasn't entirely happy with under him, but I don't think it was all his coaching, some of it was my stubbornness clashing with his ego as the juniors he coached broke 2200 and 2300 level under his tutelage - I got to 2100 at my max. In any case, under his more practical guidance, where he tried to focus on improving your weaknesses in the context of how they evolve in a point, I developed a strong blocking game and a really strong backhand. My game looked technically awkward (forehand lacked good leg usage, I had issues countering topspin and was mostly a blocker/driver after the opening topspin, no traditional footwork - almost never pivoted) but I broke 2000 (around 1600 TTR) playing that way.

But I am going off point - the first coach looked like what a good coach should be and played at a higher level than the second coach, but the second coach was a far better technical coach with in many ways deeper insight into the offensive game. I suspect if I had started with him, my serve return would be much better than it is today because his speciality was attacking serves while my chopper coach pushed and chopped almost everything without teaching how to read spin.

To conclude, the main point of all the above is to be careful about whose coaching philosophy (or even whose life philosophy captivates you) - it has consequences, even if you are not aware of it. Look for coaches who have a record of improving the people they work with. Many coaches can talk a good technical game, but when you see the players they have worked with, the player is stuck exactly where they were when they started coaching them. Some baseline improvement hitting with a good player is always inevitable - the real deal is whether the player is being pushed to challenge better players and work on how they lose/win points over time, or whether they are just repeating drills without addressing what makes them lose points in the matches they currently play.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
Is the motion the same regardless of what spin your receiving, the only thing you have to adjust is racket angle?
The movement is largely the same, the swing/racket path is always slightly different in response to the incoming spin. The adjust is a bit more vertical, but it is still forward and might start a little lower and come round the side a bit more. It is how to adjust the path to the incoming spin that is the key. But when you think of it as lifting, it gives you the impression of up up up, when to keep it on the table, you still need to come forward and over. It is something easier to explain in person, but I tell people to challenge themselves and experiment with circular movements of the racket and that if they practice, it will come eventually. You will see that backspin and topspin are both stroked in similar ways, it is just the path the racket takes is slightly different and you can borrow more energy from the topspin ball.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2023
111
56
226
I dont scrutinize his achievements as a coach that much, I trust him, but I do know that he migles with the best of them, he even had coaching sessions with Borgar Haug, which is the highest ranked player in Norway, when Borgar Haug was a young developing player. During the year I have played, several of the younger players he has coached has reached around 1700 level within 1-2 years. It is more an issue of getting attention from him, because there are so many players that he is coaching.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
I dont scrutinize his achievements as a coach that much, I trust him, but I do know that he migles with the best of them, he even had coaching sessions with Borgar Haug, which is the highest ranked player in Norway, when Borgar Haug was a young developing player. During the year I have played, several of the younger players he has coached has reached around 1700 level within 1-2 years. It is more an issue of getting attention from him, because there are so many players that he is coaching.
Developing adult players is IMHO a different thing from developing young players - in fact sometimes, you can't tell whether a young player was helped or hurt by the coach, sometimes they learn so much from going to camps, watching videos and other things. And getting attention for your needs is just as important as getting quality coaching. That said, these are things that everyone needs to navigate with their own experience. Finding an adult learner or friend who takes an interest in improving *your* game as your game, and not someone who just coaches you through routines is very important. You might consider working with a lower level coach who will actually give you a lot more time and focus. Someone who actually works with you to give you more effective ways to win and lose points as well as working on your technique. If you don't have a coach or friend who watches you play and gives you technical advice on the basis of your matches, you arguably don't have a coach, unless you are just a genius with insight when it comes to coaching yourself. Look for someone who has a record of building adults into the kinds of players you want to play like.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Feb 2023
36
20
70
The movement is largely the same, the swing/racket path is always slightly different in response to the incoming spin. The adjust is a bit more vertical, but it is still forward and might start a little lower and come round the side a bit more. It is how to adjust the path to the incoming spin that is the key. But when you think of it as lifting, it gives you the impression of up up up, when to keep it on the table, you still need to come forward and over. It is something easier to explain in person, but I tell people to challenge themselves and experiment with circular movements of the racket and that if they practice, it will come eventually. You will see that backspin and topspin are both stroked in similar ways, it is just the path the racket takes is slightly different and you can borrow more energy from the topspin ball.
All right I'll give it at try 👍
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Feb 2023
36
20
70
Developing adult players is IMHO a different thing from developing young players - in fact sometimes, you can't tell whether a young player was helped or hurt by the coach, sometimes they learn so much from going to camps, watching videos and other things. And getting attention for your needs is just as important as getting quality coaching. That said, these are things that everyone needs to navigate with their own experience. Finding an adult learner or friend who takes an interest in improving *your* game as your game, and not someone who just coaches you through routines is very important. You might consider working with a lower level coach who will actually give you a lot more time and focus. Someone who actually works with you to give you more effective ways to win and lose points as well as working on your technique. If you don't have a coach or friend who watches you play and gives you technical advice on the basis of your matches, you arguably don't have a coach, unless you are just a genius with insight when it comes to coaching yourself. Look for someone who has a record of building adults into the kinds of players you want to play like.
I somehow find it weird that a coach would not try their best to improve the players that they are teaching, some coaches may be better than others to teach abilities. But I would also argue that it is also our own responsibility to be critical and ask questions, if only we would rely on what the coaches say and not investigate then it is our own fault. Of course we should try to find the best coach possible but what works for one student might work well for him but not the other one.
 
says Looking for a bat that makes me faster
says Looking for a bat that makes me faster
Active Member
Jan 2023
714
690
2,135
I somehow find it weird that a coach would not try their best to improve the players that they are teaching, some coaches may be better than others to teach abilities. But I would also argue that it is also our own responsibility to be critical and ask questions, if only we would rely on what the coaches say and not investigate then it is our own fault. Of course we should try to find the best coach possible but what works for one student might work well for him but not the other one.
In my experience, most coaches focus on fundamentals that enables a higher ceiling in the long term, rather than quick-fixes of "tricks" that would let you get 1 or 2 more points in games. So in order to really improve, you would need lots of lessons regularly.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
I somehow find it weird that a coach would not try their best to improve the players that they are teaching, some coaches may be better than others to teach abilities. But I would also argue that it is also our own responsibility to be critical and ask questions, if only we would rely on what the coaches say and not investigate then it is our own fault. Of course we should try to find the best coach possible but what works for one student might work well for him but not the other one.
Many coaches train you how they were taught, and sometimes, they don't look at the specific problems a player has in developing a style or repeating instructions before transferring knowledge. And since most coaches who play at a high level learned as children, they mostly train people the way they learned as children with mostly rote drills that over time will help you play basic strokes and move properly, but may not fix your game reading skills. It is the rare coaches who have worked hard to develop adult talent that mostly do well with adults, though sometimes, adults with exceptional athletic ability may just do well regardless of how they are coached. But table tennis is more than athleticism, there are nuances that need to be adjusted for and spin can be an equalizer.

I agree that it is your responsibility to be critical and ask questions - but this is also difficult as a novice in table tennis to know or ask the right questions. That is why I focus on asking your coach the experiences he/she has developing adult learners into good players. Sometimes, your questions can rub even a decent coach the wrong way. And some things are best learned from experience. And it is possible to be right about something, but have a wrong justification. And it is possible to be wrong about something, but sound extremely logical. TT is really hard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richie
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,288
17,751
44,326
Read 17 reviews
In my experience, most coaches focus on fundamentals that enables a higher ceiling in the long term, rather than quick-fixes of "tricks" that would let you get 1 or 2 more points in games. So in order to really improve, you would need lots of lessons regularly.
That's what they think they are doing, but they are mostly just teaching you how they were taught. If you have years to grow into form, sure, but as an adult learner, you deserve a more focused lesson set or at least an explanation of what you are being trained to evolve into. Most adult learner, if they knew what they were doing, would push the coaches to work on serve and serve return, but this is exactly what many coaches hate teaching. Feeding loads of multiball is relatively easier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hclnnkhg
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2014
473
950
2,869
Read 3 reviews
I somehow find it weird that a coach would not try their best to improve the players that they are teaching, some coaches may be better than others to teach abilities. But I would also argue that it is also our own responsibility to be critical and ask questions, if only we would rely on what the coaches say and not investigate then it is our own fault. Of course we should try to find the best coach possible but what works for one student might work well for him but not the other one.
I don't think it's so much that they don't take interest, but that they just don't know how to coach adults well and some just rattle off the most common advice because that has "worked" when coaching young players.

Kids imo, learn more through playing a ton, messing around, copying good players. But even then, all the kids who don't turn out so good, quit. So it isn't like all kids are amazing at learning TT.

It's hard, imo, to convey TT ideas into words and action that need to happen in the body. Advice often tells a small part of the big picture.

Like when a coach says "use the forearm, use the wrist" etc.. how should one interpret that? I remember a coach telling me you need to "tense" your forearm "here". Okay, I tried that and my backhand became even worse.

With enough experience it's possible to interpret all these kinds of advice differently, but it's really hard.. even when things are described quite accurately. It's so easy to interpret them in different ways than how they were meant.

I remember once looping against a robot, after a while my arm was hurting a lot. A very good player in the UK who was also a coach, was watching me. I asked him why it hurt and he said: Well, you're not used to looping so many times in a row.
That made sense at the time. Many years later, I realized, I was using pure arm, zero body, nothing. I was still decent at putting the ball on the table, so to him that answer made sense.

I don't blame the guy. Similar to what NL said. This guy became good at TT as a kid. He probably learnt good technique naturally and there was never any need to explain how to execute the technique well. It happens to all of us. We easily "forget" what it was like before we knew the skill, especially if we learnt as kids.

This has happened to me several times. A guy in my team has incredible footwork and an amazing forehand. I asked him questions early on, until I realized, he has zero answers.. it's all guesswork and he has developed these things as a byproduct of tons of training and probably by watching other good players. I'm finding no answers here. Nothing wrong with that. It's just that I used to be so surprised. I thought all the good players and coaches had all the answers.
 
Top