Developing player with some potential :)

[dingyibvs]

I just want to see someone playing at a high level that has played for so little time as you have. I may need to reconsider my project if you have reached a level like that because I play a lot and maybe table tennis is not for me. My goal so far has been to not lose against people that have played less time than me, and I have never met anyone yet that has played less time than me that has beaten me. To me, rating means nothing. My coach has been a national level coach in Sweden and when he was in talks with one of the best Norwegian tennis players, Casper Ruud, he agreed that rating has absolutely no say. So I prefer looking at someone play and to see the timing and the balance. I lose a lot of games because of the effort that I have put into the game brings me to a really bad mood when I cant perform in ranked games. Its about mental rigidity in many ways. My hands feel like jello just typing about it now.

Here is recent video of me doing multiball training:

I watched some of your videos, I think you're perhaps focusing too much on maximizing what your technique allows rather than improving your technique. This may be driven by your strong desire not to lose to any other beginner.

I'll share an example of the beginning of my TT play. Here's an early video I took of one of my matches, some 11 years ago about ~8 months after I started playing. My opponent played a lot of tournaments back then and was consistently a 1700+ player. I had no coach, just practiced against a wall and played at this dinky club, but I got advice from message boards and set out to improve.

This was 3 months later, against the same player. You can see how much my form changed, and my footwork improved a lot too. By then this old guy was no longer my match.

Looking at your videos I don't see much improvement in your technique, you're just getting more consistent with your existing technique. Changing your technique will cause some pain, particularly since you've been playing that way for at least a year now, but IMO it's worth it and as long as you're willing to tough through it. It'll be worth the short term suffering, including possibly losing to those who have played less than you.

 

[latej]

Ranking is like a career, it is the accumulation of trust in yourself and the trust given to you by others. If you dont have trust in yourself to begin with, you will never climb, which fundamentally makes it a psychological problem. This problem is larger in adult players because they are not given the get out of jail card of "potential". I have played on the very highest level in e-sport, and I know the concept of elo-hell in gaming is very much a real thing.

Ranking reflects the level. I want to improve my level, and the ranking is a form of a proof. And so I want to improve my ranking, because it proves to me, that I've improved my level. That's the reason. I'm saying it, because there are people who like to say: "Ranking (or ELO) doesn't matter.". I don't share this view. Yes, lower ranked player can beat higher ranked player, of course.

That said, since we are international, if you guys say, I've won or lost to 1600 ranked guy, I've absolutely no idea what that means. Also if I tell you my czech ELO, it would not mean anything to you either. So I think it would be good to mention the percentile. I know that percentile in US is not exactly the same as percentile in CR, but since we humans have very similar average across the globe, at least this would give me some means to correlate and estimate the level.

 

[turbozed]

Looking at your videos I don't see much improvement in your technique, you're just getting more consistent with your existing technique. Changing your technique will cause some pain, particularly since you've been playing that way for at least a year now, but IMO it's worth it and as long as you're willing to tough through it. It'll be worth the short term suffering, including possibly losing to those who have played less than you.

Hey a bit off topic but what do you use to edit your videos to cut out the downtime in between points? I'm currently filming practice matches to improve and I'd like to edit my videos similar to how yours are edited. Thanks!

 

[NextLevel]

Ranking reflects the level. I want to improve my level, and the ranking is a form of a proof. And so I want to improve my ranking, because it proves to me, that I've improved my level. That's the reason. I'm saying it, because there are people who like to say: "Ranking (or ELO) doesn't matter.". I don't share this view. Yes, lower ranked player can beat higher ranked player, of course.

That said, since we are international, if you guys say, I've won or lost to 1600 ranked guy, I've absolutely no idea what that means. Also if I tell you my czech ELO, it would not mean anything to you either. So I think it would be good to mention the percentile. I know that percentile in US is not exactly the same as percentile in CR, but since we humans have very similar average across the globe, at least this would give me some means to correlate and estimate the level.

Usually the German system is USATT minus 400 points. And in the German system 1800 is usually a master level player as it is 2200 In the US that puts you close to the top 2% what that means with all the international immigration is open to discussion. I am usually somewhere in the top 10% at 2000. But I started learning at an old age with arthritis, that is my excuse and i am sticking to it. But I know a guy who began in his late 20s and roughly 2350 USATT. The sport is not easy

 

[dingyibvs]

Hey a bit off topic but what do you use to edit your videos to cut out the downtime in between points? I'm currently filming practice matches to improve and I'd like to edit my videos similar to how yours are edited. Thanks!

That was so long ago lol, I don't remember at all. I'm using Lightworks now though, completely free and very easy to use for simple things like cutting out the time between points.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

2. A club-mate of mine sent her son to the same coach as I and after only three months, he told him to get a Viscaria. All his students are on Viscaria ( boys ) or Innerforce ( girls ). Why these two blades? Well, my guess is that it easier for him to teach to en-mass, i.e., standardized equipment.

3. The notion that noobies must start with slow blade is not a gospel truth but mainly more applicable to basement players or recreational or rec-players for short. If a player is academy or properly trained, I guess using a fast blade is not an issue if being under proper guidance.

4. BTW, this youngling, after only three or four months of proper training, I do see him improve by leaps and bounds and can hold his own amongst rec-players who have played years and years.

I know this is a few days old, but thought I like to talk about this (not directly to you Gozo, but for all).

2. Coaches should/can choose for the player. The player would adapt, I do hope it is the coaches best interest that the player learns correctly and becomes better.
I have seen plenty of good coaches that doesn't do the same as me. I have also seen plenty of coaches that hurt the players progress. This is both in 1st world TT countries and 3rd world TT countries.
so "coach" is not always right. Good coach is.

3. under guidance yes. My quality and quantity theory comes to mind.

4. This is where I want to focus on in this post.
From our naked eye, it is not uncommon to judge someone by how they do FH and BH strokes.
Normally from set drills.
If you have a fast equipment, it will make these attacking strokes look even better.
But with fast equipment, it will make your short game, serve game, serve return game look horrible.

So (not saying what Gozo saying is right or wrong), it is important to look beyond how they train set attacking drills. It doesn't tell the full picture on how, or if, such player is able to use that equipment properly.

 

[latej]

Usually the German system is USATT minus 400 points. And in the German system 1800 is usually a master level player as it is 2200 In the US that puts you close to the top 2% what that means with all the international immigration is open to discussion. I am usually somewhere in the top 10% at 2000. But I started learning at an old age with arthritis, that is my excuse and i am sticking to it. But I know a guy who began in his late 20s and roughly 2350 USATT. The sport is not easy

I guess my idea about correlating by percentile is just a wet-dream. I think it would require that the countries have some transparent global list of all registered players, like in my country. There is some 17150 registered players in CR. My percentile is 85, which means there is 2400 players better than me, in my country only. 2400 to go ;-)

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I know this is a few days old, but thought I like to talk about this (not directly to you Gozo, but for all).

2. Coaches should/can choose for the player. The player would adapt, I do hope it is the coaches best interest that the player learns correctly and becomes better.
I have seen plenty of good coaches that doesn't do the same as me. I have also seen plenty of coaches that hurt the players progress. This is both in 1st world TT countries and 3rd world TT countries.
so "coach" is not always right. Good coach is.

3. under guidance yes. My quality and quantity theory comes to mind.

4. This is where I want to focus on in this post.
From our naked eye, it is not uncommon to judge someone by how they do FH and BH strokes.
Normally from set drills.
If you have a fast equipment, it will make these attacking strokes look even better.
But with fast equipment, it will make your short game, serve game, serve return game look horrible.

So (not saying what Gozo saying is right or wrong), it is important to look beyond how they train set attacking drills. It doesn't tell the full picture on how, or if, such player is able to use that equipment properly.

Good evening Tony,

It is good to have a conversation with you.

1. To share my experience, if one sees my equipment at my profile page you will notice I use a very fast / powerful set-up. Should I regress to a slower set-up.Nah! I have use this like for 14 months straight up without EJ'ing. I am slowly adapting to what my set-up can do best ( my strength ) and what it does badly ( my weakness )

2. My stroke is academically trained or textbook ( for lack of suitable choice of word ) and is what my club-mates would describe it. It look good when I do stroke but when playing actual games, my weakness ( i.e., short game ) becomes apparent. There is an oft-repeated mantra in my club: When playing with Gozo, never let your ball leave the table. Keep it short and he will not return that shot.

3. As Tony rightly pointed out; a fast /powerful equipment like mine will surely means my short game, serve & receive, block are my weakness. It is a give and take situation. However given enough time, one can slowly adapt and overcome it. I am proof of it because I personally see that I am adapting / improving the short game, albeit never as good as someone with a more controlled set-up.

4. My further thoughts as follows: I am an amateur / hobbyist player and I do not need any income from playing TT. To me, my joy and happiness is playing the style that I mentally want to, i.e., mid-table two wings looping ala Euro style and so my equipment supports it. If I can play that style I am happy even if I lose. If I win, it is a welcomed bonus.

5. Tony may wonder, why do I not get a Viscaria as per my coach standard lesson? Well, as a private adult learner who is hiring my coach on a one-to-one basis, I have the luxury and privilege of choosing my own tailored set-up with input from my coach of course rather than using his one-size-fits-allequipment approach.

Again, what I am saying above is just my knowledge as of now. It is dynamic and may change as I progress in my TT journey. Happy to share my thoughts with you Tony.

p/s To reiterate an important point; a set-up that one chooses cannot be good in every area, in another word, the holy grail does not exist. As an amateur player, choose the equipment that best compliment your core style and work from there. An amateur player by definition means you are not going to train 9-5 per day, five days per week. Accept that the equipment you have chosen will be good in some area and bad in some.

 

[NextLevel]

Good evening Tony,

It is good to have a conversation with you.

1. To share my experience, if one sees my equipment at my profile page you will notice I use a very fast / powerful set-up. Should I regress to a slower set-up.Nah! I have use this like for 14 months straight up without EJ'ing. I am slowly adapting to what my set-up can do best ( my strength ) and what it does badly ( my weakness )

2. My stroke is academically trained or textbook ( for lack of suitable choice of word ) and is what my club-mates would describe it. It look good when I do stroke but when playing actual games, my weakness ( i.e., short game ) becomes apparent. There is an oft-repeated mantra in my club: When playing with Gozo, never let your ball leave the table. Keep it short and he will not return that shot.

3. As Tony rightly pointed out; a fast /powerful equipment like mine will surely means my short game, serve & receive, block are my weakness. It is a give and take situation. However given enough time, one can slowly adapt and overcome it. I am proof of it because I personally see that I am adapting / improving the short game, albeit never as good as someone with a more controlled set-up.

4. My further thoughts as follows: I am an amateur / hobbyist player and I do not need any income from playing TT. To me, my joy and happiness is playing the style that I mentally want to, i.e., mid-table two wings looping ala Euro style and so my equipment supports it. If I can play that style I am happy even if I lose. If I win, it is a welcomed bonus.

5. Tony may wonder, why do I not get a Viscaria as per my coach standard lesson? Well, as a private adult learner who is hiring my coach on a one-to-one basis, I have the luxury and privilege of choosing my own tailored set-up with input from my coach of course rather than using his one-size-fits-allequipment approach.

Again, what I am saying above is just my knowledge as of now. It is dynamic and may change as I progress in my TT journey. Happy to share my thoughts with you Tony.

p/s To reiterate an important point; a set-up that one chooses cannot be good in every area, in another word, the holy grail does not exist. As an amateur player, choose the equipment that best compliment your core style and work from there. An amateur player by definition means you are not going to train 9-5 per day, five days per week. Accept that the equipment you have chosen will be good in some area and bad in some.

I think you should give it a few years and then revisit. Most of the adult amateurs I know do use carbon blades, and for a long time, I was the exception. That many people are going to stickier rubbers to get the spin back to me supports Tony's point of view, I just don't think it captures all the nuances. But I would also argue that you haven't struggled enough with improving or tried to get a certain level when these issues might affect your thought process a bit more.

 

[NextLevel]

I just want to see someone playing at a high level that has played for so little time as you have. I may need to reconsider my project if you have reached a level like that because I play a lot and maybe table tennis is not for me. My goal so far has been to not lose against people that have played less time than me, and I have never met anyone yet that has played less time than me that has beaten me. To me, rating means nothing. My coach has been a national level coach in Sweden and when he was in talks with one of the best Norwegian tennis players, Casper Ruud, he agreed that rating has absolutely no say. So I prefer looking at someone play and to see the timing and the balance. I lose a lot of games because of the effort that I have put into the game brings me to a really bad mood when I cant perform in ranked games. Its about mental rigidity in many ways. My hands feel like jello just typing about it now.

Here is recent video of me doing multiball training:

For an athlete in your condition, without knowing the full context which might affect my thoughts, your practice seems too safe and doesn't seen designed to generate powerful or extremely well placed shots. But maybe there is something I am missing that would put this in perspective.

 

[NextLevel]

I think you should give it a few years and then revisit. Most of the adult amateurs I know do use carbon blades, and for a long time, I was the exception. That many people are going to stickier rubbers to get the spin back to me supports Tony's point of view, I just don't think it captures all the nuances. But I would also argue that you haven't struggled enough with improving or tried to get a certain level when these issues might affect your thought process a bit more.

Partly to make Tony's point, you have to have played enough to struggle against all kinds of players, including choppers, to understand how fast equipment can hurt your game. I am not saying this means that all wood is the way to go for everyone. But what I mean is that if you are someone who understands how ball control benefits your game and you play aggressively for the first attack, fast equipment makes it harder to do so. If you have never had to serve consistently short to stop a player from attacking everything you do, then you just haven't reached the level where this discussion can be meaningfully had.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I know this is a few days old, but thought I like to talk about this (not directly to you Gozo, but for all).

2. Coaches should/can choose for the player. The player would adapt, I do hope it is the coaches best interest that the player learns correctly and becomes better.
I have seen plenty of good coaches that doesn't do the same as me. I have also seen plenty of coaches that hurt the players progress. This is both in 1st world TT countries and 3rd world TT countries.
so "coach" is not always right. Good coach is.

3. under guidance yes. My quality and quantity theory comes to mind.

4. This is where I want to focus on in this post.
From our naked eye, it is not uncommon to judge someone by how they do FH and BH strokes.
Normally from set drills.
If you have a fast equipment, it will make these attacking strokes look even better.
But with fast equipment, it will make your short game, serve game, serve return game look horrible.

So (not saying what Gozo saying is right or wrong), it is important to look beyond how they train set attacking drills. It doesn't tell the full picture on how, or if, such player is able to use that equipment properly.

I think you should give it a few years and then revisit. Most of the adult amateurs I know do use carbon blades, and for a long time, I was the exception. That many people are going to stickier rubbers to get the spin back to me supports Tony's point of view, I just don't think it captures all the nuances. But I would also argue that you haven't struggled enough with improving or tried to get a certain level when these issues might affect your thought process a bit more.

Partly to make Tony's point, you have to have played enough to struggle against all kinds of players, including choppers, to understand how fast equipment can hurt your game. I am not saying this means that all wood is the way to go for everyone. But what I mean is that if you are someone who understands how ball control benefits your game and you play aggressively for the first attack, fast equipment makes it harder to do so. If you have never had to serve consistently short to stop a player from attacking everything you do, then you just haven't reached the level where this discussion can be meaningfully had.

Food for thought. These are not just good posts. These are important posts to understand. It is not easy to understand something you have not gotten to a level to understand. It is unfortunate that table tennis is like this.

I remember being not so high a level and thinking, I am fine with this fast blade and fast rubbers and just not having an idea why the guys I knew who were way better than me were saying, "slow down your equipment and you will improve faster."

Now, today's game is different. Back then we were still using celluloid balls. But sometimes you can't understand what you can't understand. And there is also the question of: is someone bad at short game because their equipment won't let them be good at it. Or are they bad at it because they just don't work at it.

A high level player can use super fast equipment and still have a good short game. They may just balance things so that they are using something fast enough to do what they want offensively but not so fast that it hinders their ability to put the ball precisely where they want on offensive shots and not so fast that it makes their short game a little more vulnerable.

But it would be worth trying to understand what these guys are saying. This is valuable information.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In short game strategy, I know, all I need to do is get my opponent to give me a ball that is half an inch higher (less than 1cm...6-7mm) and I can take over the point. Slight variations in the amount of spin, can give me this. Someone with faster equipment is more vulnerable to this. If the opponent is opening up on the short ball, just getting them to need to arc their opening just a hair more will also give me this advantage to take over the point as well.

Someone who on the receiving side of things, can adjust to that and not give me that ball that is 3 inches above the table instead of 2.5.....(so the mistake is still pretty low).....but the person who can adjust and not give me that extra few mm, they will make me work much harder.

If I can do that to my opponent and keep him from making quality attacks, I will make him have to work harder and make better shots from more awkward positions. This is part of becoming higher level. If you can blast the ball when it is fed to you. But you pop the ball up when you push, or your pushes frequently float long......it is worth considering how suited to your needs your equipment actually is.

 

[NextLevel]

here it goes please don't grill me to much i am the bald guy

Your game has some ways to go, but I can see the potential for sure, especially on service. You do need to be much more aggressive (or at least develop the potential to be, especially vs backspin) - I suspect that if your opponent knew what to do with backspin, the match could have been very different.

 

[Steinmejer]

Your game has some ways to go, but I can see the potential for sure, especially on service. You do need to be much more aggressive (or at least develop the potential to be, especially vs backspin) - I suspect that if your opponent knew what to do with backspin, the match could have been very different.

I agree, there is much room for improvement and i know my weaknesses. hence why i said some potential but im fairly okay with my progress in 6 months. however that is some of the issues that i addressed earlier, i have no issues with balls comming fast, but with slow "wierd" ball im sometimes doing stupid stuff. that is why i was asking about maybe a slower setup due too me being insecure with some balls. i also specially picked this one because it reveals all my weaknesses and strengths quite good. ofc some matches looks different.

With a slower setup i would be forced to be more aggressive in order to challange my opponent. maybe even with a headheavy racket like korbel due to the head size being 158 -152 and thank you for giving me constructive feedback

 

[z0uLess]

I watched some of your videos, I think you're perhaps focusing too much on maximizing what your technique allows rather than improving your technique. This may be driven by your strong desire not to lose to any other beginner.

I'll share an example of the beginning of my TT play. Here's an early video I took of one of my matches, some 11 years ago about ~8 months after I started playing. My opponent played a lot of tournaments back then and was consistently a 1700+ player. I had no coach, just practiced against a wall and played at this dinky club, but I got advice from message boards and set out to improve.

This was 3 months later, against the same player. You can see how much my form changed, and my footwork improved a lot too. By then this old guy was no longer my match.

Looking at your videos I don't see much improvement in your technique, you're just getting more consistent with your existing technique. Changing your technique will cause some pain, particularly since you've been playing that way for at least a year now, but IMO it's worth it and as long as you're willing to tough through it. It'll be worth the short term suffering, including possibly losing to those who have played less than you.

everyones technique is different. unless you are a high level coach, I would be wary of taking your word that my base technique needs work. tbh, the only difference I see in the videos you posted and the way I play is that you have a very good timing and a fast racket -- you have very little hip movement in your strokes. also, the level of play presented in this video has close to zero blocks -- whomever gets to the explosive shot wins the point. I try to improve my technique every day, so I dont understand how you came to the conclusion that this is what was holding me back. I am using a slow racket to focus on my technique, so when I change I will have a much bigger potential. that is the plan anyway. the way I see it, what is holding me back is the lack of experience with match play, creating a higher response time to the movements of an opponent, coupled with the general lack of response time that someone starting to learn the sport at age 38 allready has.

 

[Steinmejer]

everyones technique is different. unless you are a high level coach, I would be wary of taking your word that my base technique needs work. tbh, the only difference I see in the videos you posted and the way I play is that you have a very good timing and a fast racket -- you have very little hip movement in your strokes. also, the level of play presented in this video has close to zero blocks -- whomever gets to the explosive shot wins the point. I try to improve my technique every day, so I dont understand how you came to the conclusion that this is what was holding me back. I am using a slow racket to focus on my technique, so when I change I will have a much bigger potential. that is the plan anyway.

I don't think that we are here trying to make others feel bad, i somewhat get the vipe that you feel this way. i would say the relation between the 2 matches he has become more stable and consistent, yes there is work to be done on the movement but if we all were to have perfect movement we would, probably be higher level i also se that i'm somewhat stationary and don't move into position before the ball is on my side. I'm sure that you are working very hard on getting better, I can see from the amount of videos that you put out that your are very committed, which is very admirable and you should keep up the good work. one thing i noticed is that you in your training is somewhat more loose than in match play, if you could be more relaxed in matches you would probably do a lot better

 

[z0uLess]

I don't think that we are here trying to make others feel bad, i somewhat get the vipe that you feel this way. i would say the relation between the 2 matches he has become more stable and consistent, yes there is work to be done on the movement but if we all were to have perfect movement we would, probably be higher level i also se that i'm somewhat stationary and don't move into position before the ball is on my side. I'm sure that you are working very hard on getting better, I can see from the amount of videos that you put out that your are very committed, which is very admirable and you should keep up the good work. one thing i noticed is that you in your training is somewhat more loose than in match play, if you could be more relaxed in matches you would probably do a lot better

you cant get a vibe from text on the internet, thats why its so difficult to communicate online -- it has no context and it does not cater to the emotional beings that we are. I was replying to the actual things that this person was assuming. there is no data that support making an assumption that I was not developing my technique because I didnt want to lose games ... it is just a wild guess. I think I responded appropriately.

btw, the play on your video looks pretty good. you are playing safely in the right way, as you are usspposed to do when playing matches like this and you dont want to make unforced errors. the comment you got about improving your ability to attack will come with you gain more control of your attack. you would probably beat me at the level I am now, but I wish I had the option of trying to play you as well ;D

 

[Steinmejer]

you cant get a vibe from text on the internet, thats why its so difficult to communicate online -- it has no context and it does not cater to the emotional beings that we are. I was replying to the actual things that this person was assuming. there is no data that support making an assumption that I was not developing my technique because I didnt want to lose games ... it is just a wild guess. I think I responded appropriately.

All right my bad

 

[dingyibvs]

everyones technique is different. unless you are a high level coach, I would be wary of taking your word that my base technique needs work. tbh, the only difference I see in the videos you posted and the way I play is that you have a very good timing and a fast racket -- you have very little hip movement in your strokes. also, the level of play presented in this video has close to zero blocks -- whomever gets to the explosive shot wins the point. I try to improve my technique every day, so I dont understand how you came to the conclusion that this is what was holding me back. I am using a slow racket to focus on my technique, so when I change I will have a much bigger potential. that is the plan anyway. the way I see it, what is holding me back is the lack of experience with match play, creating a higher response time to the movements of an opponent, coupled with the general lack of response time that someone starting to learn the sport at age 38 allready has.

I'm not comparing between your video and mine, per se, I'm comparing the difference between my two videos 3 months apart and the difference between your two videos a year or so apart. I certainly wouldn't claim that I was better than you in those videos, it's really tough to tell by videos anyway.

Anyhow, just keep an open mind, give things a try. I kept posting videos and TBH many times I reacted the same as you. Just a couple months ago I posted a video here and wasn't particularly impressed by some of the comments re: my FH loop motion. But I figured what the heck, doesn't hurt to explore another technique, and now I'm developing a new motion that I can use in conjunction with my old motion. I'll post another video soon re: the results.

BTW, I'm glad you pointed out my lack of hip motion, you're very right! After that video the club closed down, and I lost access to my only training tool which was the table by a wall in my apartment building. I played a couple years at a crowded 3 table club where I mostly played doubles so everyone had a chance to play. I then took an 8 year hiatus and just started playing again a 6 months ago, so besides footwork I didn't really get to improve any of my motions. In fact, my BH regressed quite a bit as the improved footwork and playing doubles allowed me to hardly ever use them. But 3 months ago I got my own table and robot, with a camera setup, so I get to practice to improve my technique again. That hip thing will get a lot of workout for sure!