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I actually disagree, you just need to open your racket a bit more for heavier balls. That is the standard way to loop heavy chop.
Yeah, maybe it's worded not so well but i think the point was that zouless would probably find it easier as a beginner to start this exercise with light backspin not heavy af backspin. With heavier backspin the ball reacts too strongly with the racket causing this method to lose control relatively speaking (unless you have relatively spin insensitive rubbers, for me I have tacky af Hurricanes which can lift the ball for a few secs so it doesn't really work), it's better to combine this spin neutralising method with actual proper body mechanics to achieve good control of the ball.
 
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I think based on the FH against backspin training video and how his racket is moving, @zoulless doesn't really understand how to convert the incoming backspin to a topspin stroke. The reason why he's moving everything hard (including upper arm) is because he's trying to brute force loop it - which basically won't work at all - you need to learn how to walk before you can run/jump.

If you watch this video, it'll show you how to loop underspin as easy as topspin - it is a very important progression because it teaches you what the racket movement needs to feel like when looping underspin.

I can do it slowly as well, to show you, but not in the next few days. I am not training with the robot for a while. The guy who mentioned that my robot setting was not realistic may have had a point -- so much about using a robot is unrealistic for the actual manifestation in play, reviewing my movements in video is equally difficult. My method is to just have lots of variation in what I am practicing with the robot. Maybe this is making my progress stagnate, idk. I see the point in what you guys are referring to about my upper arm activation, but you also have to consider that the equipment I am using is pretty slow with tacky rubber, and my blade is flexible, so I get most of my gears from engaging the blade strongly. Hitting thinly is also doable, but not as consistent when the springyness comes from the blade and not from the rubber.

Here is video of me dealing with backspin in different ways (two points in a row) in a practice match situation from two months ago:
 
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I can do it slowly as well, to show you, but not in the next few days. I am not training with the robot for a while. The guy who mentioned that my robot setting was not realistic may have had a point -- so much about using a robot is unrealistic for the actual manifestation in play, reviewing my movements in video is equally difficult. My method is to just have lots of variation in what I am practicing with the robot. Maybe this is making my progress stagnate, idk. I see the point in what you guys are referring to about my upper arm activation, but you also have to consider that the equipment I am using is pretty slow with tacky rubber, and my blade is flexible, so I get most of my gears from engaging the blade strongly. Hitting thinly is also doable, but not as consistent when the springyness comes from the blade and not from the rubber.

Here is video of me dealing with backspin in different ways (two points in a row) in a practice match situation from two months ago:
No, we don't want you to brush thinly! You actually aren't going forward enough with your stroke in that practice match, for example. It's actually kinda hard to do a brush loop against a high ball, which you did in that point. Brush loops are more reliable against lower balls at the mid falling portion of its trajectory.

The video of Ti Long which @blahness posted starts by hitting the ball back, and that should be the starting point when dealing with a high spin ball whether it's a backspin or a topspin.
 
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I can do it slowly as well, to show you, but not in the next few days. I am not training with the robot for a while. The guy who mentioned that my robot setting was not realistic may have had a point -- so much about using a robot is unrealistic for the actual manifestation in play, reviewing my movements in video is equally difficult. My method is to just have lots of variation in what I am practicing with the robot. Maybe this is making my progress stagnate, idk. I see the point in what you guys are referring to about my upper arm activation, but you also have to consider that the equipment I am using is pretty slow with tacky rubber, and my blade is flexible, so I get most of my gears from engaging the blade strongly. Hitting thinly is also doable, but not as consistent when the springyness comes from the blade and not from the rubber.

Here is video of me dealing with backspin in different ways (two points in a row) in a practice match situation from two months ago:
This is really not an equipment discussion but in any case, you have.a coach.
 
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I can do it slowly as well, to show you, but not in the next few days. I am not training with the robot for a while. The guy who mentioned that my robot setting was not realistic may have had a point -- so much about using a robot is unrealistic for the actual manifestation in play, reviewing my movements in video is equally difficult. My method is to just have lots of variation in what I am practicing with the robot. Maybe this is making my progress stagnate, idk. I see the point in what you guys are referring to about my upper arm activation, but you also have to consider that the equipment I am using is pretty slow with tacky rubber, and my blade is flexible, so I get most of my gears from engaging the blade strongly. Hitting thinly is also doable, but not as consistent when the springyness comes from the blade and not from the rubber.

Here is video of me dealing with backspin in different ways (two points in a row) in a practice match situation from two months ago:
From this reply it appears that you haven't really understood the video and what it is trying to teach. Maybe just go through the exercise in the video and film it for comparison purposes.
 
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From this reply it appears that you haven't really understood the video and what it is trying to teach. Maybe just go through the exercise in the video and film it for comparison purposes.
from this reply it appears that you havent really understood my reply

edit: seriously though, haha, you really need to understand how to communicate constructively. hows about you film yourself instead and show me? anyone can be a critic and an internet keyboard warrior, which is why I have to take everything said here with a huge pile of salt. first, people say that I am using too much force, then people say that I am supposed to hit the ball instead of brushing it. I get it, everything can be better. do you get it?
 
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from this reply it appears that you havent really understood my reply

edit: seriously though, haha, you really need to understand how to communicate constructively. hows about you film yourself instead and show me? anyone can be a critic and an internet keyboard warrior, which is why I have to take everything said here with a huge pile of salt. first, people say that I am using too much force, then people say that I am supposed to hit the ball instead of brushing it. I get it, everything can be better. do you get it?
If you film yourself and put it out on the internet you have to develop a thicker skin lol 😂

But Ti Long (the guy in the video) is a very well respected coach and a professional player.

Just give the exercises in the video a try - you don't necessarily need a robot for it. It's easy and I believe it would be very helpful (because I went through the same set of exercises a long time ago and got serious benefits out of it)

It has nothing to do with hit or brush ratio - it is simply a way to neutralize incoming backspin and generate your own topspin
 
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If you film yourself and put it out on the internet you have to develop a thicker skin lol 😂

But Ti Long (the guy in the video) is a very well respected coach and a professional player.

Just give the exercises in the video a try - you don't necessarily need a robot for it. It's easy and I believe it would be very helpful (because I went through the same set of exercises a long time ago and got serious benefits out of it)

It has nothing to do with hit or brush ratio - it is simply a way to neutralize incoming backspin and generate your own topspin
its not about me not having thick skin, its about me telling you that you are wasting your time by being in your own head and sitting there writing to yourself. if you want to participate in the discussion, then participate in the doing as well ... dont just ask me to do more. claiming that I dont understand something is just not proper discussion etiquette, as no person has true access to another persons understanding -- you really only can know your own understanding. what other people communicate, and your interpretation of that communication is something else entirely
 
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its not about me not having thick skin, its about me telling you that you are wasting your time by being in your own head and sitting there writing to yourself. if you want to participate in the discussion, then participate in the doing as well ... dont just ask me to do more.
Sure. I won't participate in your thread anymore. Good luck in your improvement endeavours.
 
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Let me ask the kinds of questions I would ask you based on what you just wrote:
1) how many hours do you get coaching every week?
2) outside of coaching, how many hours/days do you play every week?
3) if you do not play outside of coaching, is that because of your coach or because of you?
4) if you ask your coach about something and discuss broader table tennis, what kind of conversation is result?
5) if you discussed a match where you had a problem with something, how does your coach act in response?
6) do you record your training/coaching sessions?
7) Have you ever discussed playing tournaments or leagues with your coach?

All of these are data points to understand your investment and how your coach might see your level of investment.

Thank you for taking the time to go into detail about this.

1. 3 times a week, 1 hour each week of coaching.
2. I recently started playing about 4 or 5 hours per week outside of coaching.
3. I didn't play much outside of coaching mostly because I couldn't find a group to play with. But my coach said a little over a month ago to wait a bit longer to improve basic technique before playing games. He's fine with it now.
4+5. I haven't asked about any broader issues or tactics/strategy. When I do ask about learning a specific technique, he will oblige.
6. Yes I do, and I spend time reviewing it after training. My coach generally identifies what my biggest technique issues are but sometimes I will make changes on my own (e.g. taking an initial step with my left foot before a step around is something I learned online).
7. There apparently aren't organized leagues and tournaments for beginner adults in my city in Vietnam. I intend on playing in the USA when I'm back visiting and have USATT membership.

Another thing to mention is that coaching is very inexpensive in Vietnam where I'm living. My coach charges $10 per hour. So maybe there will come a point where my development is stalled and I will pay for a more expensive coach like Ti Long who lives in my city.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to go into detail about this.

1. 3 times a week, 1 hour each week of coaching.
2. I recently started playing about 4 or 5 hours per week outside of coaching.
3. I didn't play much outside of coaching mostly because I couldn't find a group to play with. But my coach said a little over a month ago to wait a bit longer to improve basic technique before playing games. He's fine with it now.
4+5. I haven't asked about any broader issues or tactics/strategy. When I do ask about learning a specific technique, he will oblige.
6. Yes I do, and I spend time reviewing it after training. My coach generally identifies what my biggest technique issues are but sometimes I will make changes on my own (e.g. taking an initial step with my left foot before a step around is something I learned online).
7. There apparently aren't organized leagues and tournaments for beginner adults in my city in Vietnam. I intend on playing in the USA when I'm back visiting and have USATT membership.

Another thing to mention is that coaching is very inexpensive in Vietnam where I'm living. My coach charges $10 per hour. So maybe there will come a point where my development is stalled and I will pay for a more expensive coach like Ti Long who lives in my city.

Are you left handed?

It sounds like you are largely in a good situation. Better player doesn't necessarily mean better coach, especially for a specific player. It is more important as an adult learner go find good mentors who invest time in you and the fact you and your coach review your video is a good sign. Does he teach you how to return and read serves?

Most of the match play issues beginners have are tied to game reading skills. Usually a coach makes everything obvious and it is an opponents job to overload you and your job to overload the opponent. So an opponent may serve to you and you cant return the serve. This is actually a good thing for you though it might not feel that way at the time lol. Because when you learn to read and return the serve, you become a better player. But then quality of return becomes important as you need to be able to prevent the opponent from doing what they want.

Another thing that adult learners struggle to do is construct their game. You need to know what your approach is to winning points. Keeping the ball on the table is a basic strategy but it describes too many playing styles. You need to know what you intend to do to cause your opponent trouble. Some of this you learn by seeing what you do well, some of you learn by seeing what opponents struggle with. But a good coach will help you do what you do well to win matches and then balance out your weaknesses. There is too much to learn so having imbalanced play is normal for an adult. It just means you have to spend time patching weaknesses and improving strengths as you get better.

As an adult, you have to continue to seek challenges to improve and you can't leave it entirely with the coach though a coach can play a big role. In places like Vietnam (I am Nigerian), there might be a handicap/hustle system where good players play weaker players for money with a handicap in place to make it competitive. It is a good way to pay for unofficial coaching if one is can afford it as the better players will always try to hustle you (they can't beat you so badly that you never want to play but they also can't let you take the money) so you end up playing interestingly competitive points and get teased with chances to hit easy balls even if they know they can serve you off the table.

As you might have gleaned on the forum,some of the match play issues learners have are tied to how they view the improvement process. You should work towards being able to generate good spin and quality on your shots and ask your coach how you can do this within the technical framework he is teaching you. Hitting the ball properly with consistency, placement, speed and spin is as important if not more important than moving well, the solution is to find better players to play against or more challenging serves or exercises to execute whenever one wants to improve rather than being stuck repeating the same things forever. The good thing about the USATT rating system is that it makes it easier to measure your level and what kinds of opponents might be competitive for you. So you have ways to measure improvement. It can have negative side effects as well, but that is life.

The challenges will force you to evolve and then you have add things to your game to get better. It is easy to fool yourself that what you are doing is 100% adequate in the absence of appropriate challenges so let the challenges determine that.
 
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