development of TT to a two wing attack game? And Players ahead of there time?

[gmiller2233]

So was looking up matches of Jiang Jialiang when I ran across his match vs Andrzej Grubba. I know Grubba's name mostly because of the blade that's named after him but I had never really see any of his matches. After watching the match for a bit I was really blown away buy the strength of his backhand. Watch this match made me kind of curious roughly at what time do they attribute this two wing progression in the game to be a main stay and was Grubba's game ahead of its time?

I also thought it might be interesting to discuss (regardless of style) what players are considered ahead of their time or tried setters in the game?
Wang Hao with his (RPB) skills maybe?


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[Baal]

It seems to me that the two wing game developed starting in the mid 80s into something that looks a lot like it's modern form, but remember that the smaller ball in those days had a big effect on how you could hit the ball and still expect it to land on the table. You just couldn't throw your whole body into it the way you can now. You can definitely see this feature in players who spanned the 38 and 40 mm era, guys like Persson and Samsonov. Their 38 mm stroke was distinctly different from the way they hit the ball later.

People don't talk about this a lot, but I think in a lot of ways Gatien and Appelgren were ahead of their time in different ways. Gatien showed how effective one could be looping viciously right off the bounce from either side. I find Appelgren to be very much a transitional player between the Surbek/Johannson/Klampar etc, generation which looks really old-fashioned to me now, and the Waldner/Persson/KLH generation that looks pretty modern.

This conversation I am sure will expand because there were so many innovators. Bengtsson serving short. Xu Shaofa with his high toss serves. Hungarians with speed glue. Ma Lin and Wang Hao with RPB. The early modern defenders. WLQ's massive forehand that was the blueprint for all the CNT players since then. Korbel and the banana flick which is now essential for pretty much everyone. Waldner's ridiculously deceptive serve (for his day) and lots of other things.

 

[Baal]

I am wondering also if anyone in history could do the super-deceptive spin/no spin variations from the exact same motion as well as Ma Lin?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Great points Baal.

Kong Linghui comes to mind as the blueprint or precursor to Wang Liqin. I think, a way of looking at that is, he is the first player with that giant Penhold FH swing while playing shakehand.

And China actually sent Kong to Sweden to train and learn the European style.

I would say ZJK is an innovator as well. He didn't invent anything. But he pushed some preexistent techniques to their limit: a player with a massive and dominant Chinese FH who also has a BH that can loop everything. That over the table game that he pushed to the limit. FZD is the next generation in that ZJK mold.

One of the innovations for the Swedish team of the 80s that led them to dominate the end of the 80s into the 90s was a study they did at the time about how, usually, the player who was the better blocker won more than the player with the bigger strokes. So those guys all learned to block the ball well. And JO Waldner may just be the best blocker in history.

Great idea for a thread.


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[NextLevel]

Tibor Klampar and speed glue. That is the answer I would give in a nutshell.

 

[gmiller2233]

Lots great points! I'm going to look at samsonov 38 and 40 ball matches tonight With that in mind. I totally notice the change in playing style but I hadn't attributed it to the ball but that makes sense.
Also I have watch the power of block waldner video countless times because it's just so amazing. I definitely noticed /thought it was cool to hear waldner talk specifically about training that skill and its importance in one of his resent interviews. Waldner made the block and drop shot look so effortless or easy, much easier than it is.




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[gmiller2233]

Who was the first player to use the backhand flip as the first or primary server return option? And I've heard a few people say in interviews that the no spin serve is the most important serve in the game right now so I was also kind of also interested in the ma Lin no spin question.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Who was the first player to use the backhand flip as the first or primary server return option? And I've heard a few people say in interviews that the no spin serve is the most important serve in the game right now so I was also kind of also interested in the ma Lin no spin question.

Other people used the BH flip before him. But before ZJK I don't think too many people thought to use it as far to the FH side or as often. Ovtcharov was using it quite a lot at the same time though. Not sure he used it as much as ZJK. But they bother were using it a lot before to many other people were using it as a main serve receive weapon.

 

[Baal]

Klampar for sure. His strength from both sides was unusual for his day. He and the other Hungarians of that time were also the first to use speed glue. Also, his forehand was sort of "Chinese".

 

[Baal]

Korbel banana flip.

 

[Baal]

I kind of think of KLH as more of a precursor to ZJK because of his grip and strokes. KLH was smoothest player ever.