Dilemma with cost-benefit on European vs Chinese rubbers

[Michael Zhuang]

Yes, definitely different from Target 90. 90 is slow like H3 so you have to boost, STN plays great with no boost. Slight bounce on topsheet, but speed comes from the sponge. Heavy, has a solid feel. No clicky sound, but makes a cracking sound on smashes and drives. Has really nice speed to spin ratio, very controlled.

Sounds like a rubber I should try next. Any idea what is the difference between the original Target National and the new "nano" Target National?

https://sanweisport.com/english/product-category/rubber/target/

 

[Zwill]

I would say that I train at high performance, I practice around 3h30 to 5h a day, 6 days a week in a group of 4-8 people with the accompaniment of a coach.

So I have a serious dilemma, I'm currently using the Tibhar Evolution MXP 50 on the FH and Nittaku Fastarc G1 on BH, I've been using this setup since the beginning of April, I really like the rubbers, they fit my style of play well.

The MXP is already wearing out in the sweet spot but nothing too much. Fastarc is still good. I can send pictures of the wear later.

The problem would be the price, for those of you who earn in dollars or euros, this pair is relatively cheap, but here the money is in BRL, I would spend around 500BRL buying this pair again. Don't do conversion, think you would spend 500 euros or dollars for a pair. I don't have the best financial condition so I paid the pair on 100BRL once a month for 5 months.

Now this expense starts really affects me considering that I have to participate in some tournaments on the national circuit, which are always trips away.

So I'm thinking about buying a DHS Hurricane 8 for the FH and DHS GoldArc 5 on BH, it would cost around 220BRL, which is WAY cheaper for me. The problem here is whether the quality would last for a while, something like 5 months.

My experience on chinese rubbers are a DHS Skyline 2 NEO and DHS Hurricane 3, the Skyline opened a big bubble in the sweet spot separating topsheet from sponge, same on the top edges after two months of use. I used the Hurricane about two months and i not seen nothing at all, just the color worn a little, and the reduce of the tackiness but not too much.

I like the characteristic of Chinese rubbers, because I like forehand and it's my best stroke, so make strength to have a strong ball is not a problem and tackiness also helps me with a lot of effect. The problem is on quality control.

So, finaly: My coach has several contacts with friends and athletes, etc. And suggested that he look for good used rubbers, for a price that would be nice. But I'm afraid they also last even less than a Chinese one.

Looking for advices on this situation, chinese rubbers or used good esn rubbers? (most Tibhar and Joola ones).

I think you're on the right track, H8 doesn't bubble up so easily as H3 and H8 doesn't need booster either. If you clean it and always apply a plastic foil on it it can last very long time. Some say that G1 is pretty durable for an ESN rubber (as durable as it gets), and since Gold Arc 5 is also ESN you might save some money initially but if the Gold Arc 5 wears out faster than G1 you might not have saved any money in the long run.
Where I live Joola Rhyzen CMD is one of the cheapest "proper" rubber you can buy. It's like a little more expensive then commerial H3 Neo. Not sure what's the situation there.

 

[PingBirdPong]

I think you're on the right track, H8 doesn't bubble up so easily as H3 and H8 doesn't need booster either. If you clean it and always apply a plastic foil on it it can last very long time. Some say that G1 is pretty durable for an ESN rubber (as durable as it gets), and since Gold Arc 5 is also ESN you might save some money initially but if the Gold Arc 5 wears out faster than G1 you might not have saved any money in the long run.
Where I live Joola Rhyzen CMD is one of the cheapest "proper" rubber you can buy. It's like a little more expensive then commerial H3 Neo. Not sure what's the situation there.

You’re right on the H8 thing. I’ve seen them last two years. But I think sometimes one must accept that high frequency and performance training is extremely costly. The reality is, something is going to cost a certain amount, and there is no way to get around that. You can only do what you can afford.
If you can’t afford brand new rubbers, buy or get someone to give you used rubbers. For example I would happily give my rubbers that are not in use to a friend, so you should try looking for someone. Or, you can find a trusty second hand dealer and pick out the newer ones. If those don’t work, then you are forced to use lower class rubbers. No big deal! Lots of great players here in China use cheap rubbers, but still destroy everyone.

 

[lodro]

You’re right on the H8 thing. I’ve seen them last two years. But I think sometimes one must accept that high frequency and performance training is extremely costly. The reality is, something is going to cost a certain amount, and there is no way to get around that. You can only do what you can afford.
If you can’t afford brand new rubbers, buy or get someone to give you used rubbers. For example I would happily give my rubbers that are not in use to a friend, so you should try looking for someone. Or, you can find a trusty second hand dealer and pick out the newer ones. If those don’t work, then you are forced to use lower class rubbers. No big deal! Lots of great players here in China use cheap rubbers, but still destroy everyone.

of course i am biased but i would suggest some Loki Rxton5.
they hit flatter than H3, are faster than H3 , cheaper than H3 and last longer than H3
Did i mentioned that i was biased ?

 

[PingBirdPong]

of course i am biased but i would suggest some Loki Rxton5.
they hit flatter than H3, are faster than H3 , cheaper than H3 and last longer than H3
Did i mentioned that i was biased ?

I thought your name was Lodro, and not Biased?😄

 

[lodro]

I thought your name was Lodro, and not Biased?😄

it is lodro biased 😁

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Wow this is so strange. Why would a top level pro like Hitomi Sato need to recycle her old rubbers? Doesn't the Japanese National team provide for her equipment? I'm pretty sure she is on a private team as well.

national team doesn't provide equipment. its not the job of national team to provide equipment.
national team other than provide salary, and airfare to tournaments, may also provide funding for coaching.

equipment is between the player and the equipment makers

there is many reasons, maybe Sato doesn't want to waste that rubber, especially it has bubbled.
So turning it around, her sweet spot is now out of the way of the bubble

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I did say the 6 months was extreme, and the topsheet was completely worn. I also said for the amount I play (10-15hrs/week) and my stroke technique, it would be wise to change at least every 3 months. For the amount semi-pro plays, this would probably then be 1 month max.

I guess that pros wouldn't even want to reboost, as it could not be exactly the same as the fresh boost (?). So replace at least every 2 weeks to 1 week.

-------------------------------------------------------

Huh, are cheap chinese rubbers that inconsistent? Maybe I am just too low level to tell the difference.

It seems suspicious to recycle a rubber by flipping it around if that person demands top performance. If you want consistent performance across the entire topsheet, you will have to replace the rubber.

If you are from a bad financial background, even more reason to use cheap chinese rubbers. Personally, I would rather use half as cheap rubber and replace twice as frequently than the opposite. Of course, this is assuming you like performance of the cheap rubber.

reboost is common.
some times a bad boost job, they will need to reboost.
or need to touch up on a layer.

well, the higher the level we go, the more consistency of rubber performance we need to focus on.
a 1% margin is too high.

A group of elite male players that include one that beat Dima before, all use DHS on forehand (i think except for 2, one using Butterfly and the other Xiom sponsored, but with special harden rubbers)

They tried D05, T05H, D09 etc, when it came out, and the feedback was, the reliability of the rubber when the ball is very low (near touching the ground) and for them to loop the ball back, Butterfly is not good enough, when compared to a DHS H3 provincial blue sponge.

This is just 1 example of where performance comes in where the players tried it, and it just isn't the same.
I think most non pros/non semi pros, won't be pushed into such a position and won't even get the ball back with quality - even with a DHS. But for these guys, they can perform better with H3 and that is why it is a market wide preference. You really need to know how to use it, then you know the value.

Now if D and T family can't do it, how in the world would Yinhe, Sanwei and all other brands that no full time player in China using them? As I said, all these tier 2 brands in China all have good sponsored players, none of them use them....
No offense to these brands, but its just a different ball game. Even 729 has fallen off the bus.

 

[latej]

reboost is common.
some times a bad boost job, they will need to reboost.
or need to touch up on a layer.

well, the higher the level we go, the more consistency of rubber performance we need to focus on.
a 1% margin is too high.

A group of elite male players that include one that beat Dima before, all use DHS on forehand (i think except for 2, one using Butterfly and the other Xiom sponsored, but with special harden rubbers)

They tried D05, T05H, D09 etc, when it came out, and the feedback was, the reliability of the rubber when the ball is very low (near touching the ground) and for them to loop the ball back, Butterfly is not good enough, when compared to a DHS H3 provincial blue sponge.

This is just 1 example of where performance comes in where the players tried it, and it just isn't the same.
I think most non pros/non semi pros, won't be pushed into such a position and won't even get the ball back with quality - even with a DHS. But for these guys, they can perform better with H3 and that is why it is a market wide preference. You really need to know how to use it, then you know the value.

Now if D and T family can't do it, how in the world would Yinhe, Sanwei and all other brands that no full time player in China using them? As I said, all these tier 2 brands in China all have good sponsored players, none of them use them....
No offense to these brands, but its just a different ball game. Even 729 has fallen off the bus.

Hi Tony, I'm getting off topic a bit. Two days ago I glued H8-80 37 (didn't boost), today 1st training with it. I had H3 37 before. I can't say much about it yet obviously. Perhaps that I am not disappointed. But not decided whether I stick or use H3 37 next time again. I'd be interested to hear your, or anybody else for that matter (perhaps ttarc I know is using it too), opinion about it. Tony you mentioned most in your group use H3 or H8-80 specifically, that's why am asking.

 

[Zwill]

They tried D05, T05H, D09 etc, when it came out, and the feedback was, the reliability of the rubber when the ball is very low (near touching the ground) and for them to loop the ball back, Butterfly is not good enough, when compared to a DHS H3 provincial blue sponge.

I noticed this too, blue H3 can do some really great things. You just need to plant your feet real hard and smash the ball to oblivion. D09c can kinda do it but I think the sponge on it is too hard, much more difficult to hit down on the wood than with blue H3.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Hi Tony, I'm getting off topic a bit. Two days ago I glued H8-80 37 (didn't boost), today 1st training with it. I had H3 37 before. I can't say much about it yet obviously. Perhaps that I am not disappointed. But not decided whether I stick or use H3 37 next time again. I'd be interested to hear your, or anybody else for that matter (perhaps ttarc I know is using it too), opinion about it. Tony you mentioned most in your group use H3 or H8-80 specifically, that's why am asking.

The group i'm involved with, currently no one is using H8-80
There is a chopper using H8, and we thinking to change her to H3 blue sponge. Not enough kick in the H8.

We had one that used H3 39 on FH and H3 37 on BH, but her technique doesn't suite 37 on backhand, so changed her to Fastarc G1.
A couple of girls use H3 39 on FH
Guys mostly using 40 on FH, and the guys prefer Tenergy 05H or D05 on BH.

So I can't say I have too much hands on experience to tell you from this group I'm with, but from what I hear from some overseas players, H8-80 seems to be a wow factor. Hu Heming of Aus talked about it, he tried all 3 (37, H8, -80) and felt in love with H8-80. His contract actually allows him to use another brand on BH and he was surprised H8-80 can replace his Butterfly.
But in China's NT or Provincial, the scale of usages of 37 out ways 8. But Butterfly still out ways DHS on BH a lot.

 

[Zwill]

Hi Tony, I'm getting off topic a bit. Two days ago I glued H8-80 37 (didn't boost), today 1st training with it. I had H3 37 before. I can't say much about it yet obviously. Perhaps that I am not disappointed. But not decided whether I stick or use H3 37 next time again. I'd be interested to hear your, or anybody else for that matter (perhaps ttarc I know is using it too), opinion about it. Tony you mentioned most in your group use H3 or H8-80 specifically, that's why am asking.

It's not so obvious to use H8-80 coming off from H3 on backhand. While H3 is rather insensitive and slow, the H8-80 is super sensitive and is quite bouncy. I think it makes the most sense to use it on an innerforce blade, possible like the Ma Long 5. Such blades on BH are quite hard work with a Bty or ESN rubbers that bounce well. With H3 it's really hard unless you use it specially for passive blocking game on BH, then it might be OK. It is pretty annoying if someone blocks very short. H8-80 gives that extra bounce to make a Ma Long 5 blade on BH to be normal, it does it better than ESN rubbers.

I think it's biggest weakness is the sensitiveness of the topsheet. It's much stickier than H3, and stretches a lot more too, which is great against underspin, but against topspin I could not really find my angle to do counterspins. I am left handed so I get a lot of topspin on my backhand which I like to counter occasionally, not just block all the time. Countering for me was very difficult. Blocking was okay but one needs to get used to it. Touch play was pretty nice with it tho, it makes a lot of spin on weak touches too.

It doesn't need boosting either and that way it's not heavy. Also didn't need to break it in like H3, the sponge is ready to go out of the pack.

 

[ttarc]

Hi Tony, I'm getting off topic a bit. Two days ago I glued H8-80 37 (didn't boost), today 1st training with it. I had H3 37 before. I can't say much about it yet obviously. Perhaps that I am not disappointed. But not decided whether I stick or use H3 37 next time again. I'd be interested to hear your, or anybody else for that matter (perhaps ttarc I know is using it too), opinion about it. Tony you mentioned most in your group use H3 or H8-80 specifically, that's why am asking.

I'm still using H8-80 on my BH and don't see a reason to look for a different rubber.
What I like is its stability, linearity and its topsheet grip especially on thin contacts compared to ESN rubbers.
Compared to a boosted H3 37 (three layers of Seamoon) I can use shorter strokes to get the ball going and therefore it's easier to put or keep the opponent under pressure and to play more aggressively in general. H3 37 is imo great if you are using your backhand more like Ma Long to keep the ball under control and in the game to prepare your FH attacks and imo not so much for a more aggressive BH/BH oriented game (DHS labels H3 as control/loop and H8-80 as speed/control for a reason )
Due to the linearity varying shots is way better than with the ESN rubbers I played with, not to mention the short game, without sacrificing speed on full power strokes.
But I have to agree with Zwill that the H8-80 topsheet is quite spin sensitive like imo FastArc C-1 or G-1 if played to passively and takes a few sessions to get used to. As for counter looping: Do you use a more through the ball approach on the BH or a thin, more over the ball contact?

 

[IB66]

I haven’t used H8-80 for quite a while now, but I like this rubber, 37 degree on BH and 38 FH (which for many would be too soft) compared to Rakza Z (which I have been using for a while now) it’s slower with a lower throw.
Latej, at least give the H8-80 a proper run out!! Give it a few training sessions, it may (or may not!!!) grow on you!!!

 

[PingBirdPong]

It's not so obvious to use H8-80 coming off from H3 on backhand. While H3 is rather insensitive and slow, the H8-80 is super sensitive and is quite bouncy. I think it makes the most sense to use it on an innerforce blade, possible like the Ma Long 5. Such blades on BH are quite hard work with a Bty or ESN rubbers that bounce well. With H3 it's really hard unless you use it specially for passive blocking game on BH, then it might be OK. It is pretty annoying if someone blocks very short. H8-80 gives that extra bounce to make a Ma Long 5 blade on BH to be normal, it does it better than ESN rubbers.

I think it's biggest weakness is the sensitiveness of the topsheet. It's much stickier than H3, and stretches a lot more too, which is great against underspin, but against topspin I could not really find my angle to do counterspins. I am left handed so I get a lot of topspin on my backhand which I like to counter occasionally, not just block all the time. Countering for me was very difficult. Blocking was okay but one needs to get used to it. Touch play was pretty nice with it tho, it makes a lot of spin on weak touches too.

It doesn't need boosting either and that way it's not heavy. Also didn't need to break it in like H3, the sponge is ready to go out of the pack.

But you can’t passive block with H3 on the backhand. You have to give it some force so it doesn’t just go into the net

 

[lodro]

But you can’t passive block with H3 on the backhand. You have to give it some force so it doesn’t just go into the net

of course one can block

 

[Zwill]

As for counter looping: Do you use a more through the ball approach on the BH or a thin, more over the ball contact?

Normally with Rozena or ESN rubbers with similar hardness I try to catch the ball in the rubber and sponge and let them do the work. With H8-80 I tried to do the same but it holds the ball so long and it can stretch a ton so I usually overcooked every shot. Maybe hitting trough the ball would be better, but it really is a sensitive rubber so I am kind of scared to counter with it.

 

[Attitude]

But you can’t passive block with H3 on the backhand. You have to give it some force so it doesn’t just go into the net

That is plain wrong to generalize. If your opponent is not a weak little pleb and can attack with good technique, every passive block will go over the net.
But that is exactly the beauty of more controlled and hard rubbers. If you hit hard enough you can generate faster balls than with bouncy rubbers. But still you are capable of great short play and short blocks.

For example i just compared some gameplay of Ma Long at the Star Contender and Champions and he is able to play way more short balls and therefore can prepare his attacks way better than many other players (probably better than anyone else). In comparison i just watched Uda vs Freitas (Truls vs Freitas was another example) and here both players just went for the 3rd ball attack around 90% of the time and were able to make a nearly uncounterable shot because the opponent was not able to play the receive short and low enough. This happens way less often with chinese players. Partially because of their different playstyle but most certainly because of their equipment too.

 

[PingBirdPong]

That is plain wrong to generalize. If your opponent is not a weak little pleb and can attack with good technique, every passive block will go over the net.
But that is exactly the beauty of more controlled and hard rubbers. If you hit hard enough you can generate faster balls than with bouncy rubbers. But still you are capable of great short play and short blocks.

For example i just compared some gameplay of Ma Long at the Star Contender and Champions and he is able to play way more short balls and therefore can prepare his attacks way better than many other players (probably better than anyone else). In comparison i just watched Uda vs Freitas (Truls vs Freitas was another example) and here both players just went for the 3rd ball attack around 90% of the time and were able to make a nearly uncounterable shot because the opponent was not able to play the receive short and low enough. This happens way less often with chinese players. Partially because of their different playstyle but most certainly because of their equipment too.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I meant that one needs more power to get the same speed on blocks.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'm actually amazed that before there was "what rubber plays like T05", now it is H3 lol.

If the rubber is good, I'm sure there can find a way to sponsor a top 50 player in a world (doesn't cost too much money, if you compared to above the line marketing), and get him/her to use those cheap rubbers.
Why is it not done yet?
At most I can think of is Yinhe's pips with some 2nd tier, or half retired player using it.
But inverted rubbers, H3 like... the closest I think to pro level usage was 729