Do you play a musical instrument?

[JeffM]

Hi Jeff. The world of DAW is real fun, especially when you play instruments, have music knowledge and most of all have ideas. It is a whole universe of possibilities.
You did an excellent job with the mic placement although nothing can stop you to do some experiments and place the mics at different positions to see the results. I haven't recorded an upright, but two times was asked to record a grand (for demo) . Both grands , rooms and even the mics were quite different so we could not apply exactly the same standerd rules for both demos.
Plug-ins are used after the recording during the mixing , so you can always keep your original recording "intact", but probably you already know that.
Try to record both mics not just as a pair(stereo) but as 2x-mono and after that you can really play with the pan. When we play piano and especially grand we clearly hear the high notes(keys) coming from our right and the lows from the left. By adjusting the pan we recreate this perception.
But of course nothing has to be overdone and extreme. Trust your ears.
If you like you may add a bit of reverb and a bit of EQ .....and again TRY NOT to overdo and never use extreme settings.Using compression on a piano is not a good idea unless you are looking for some special result....
WIth two words -Neverending story.

Thanks for this Kolev! This is so informative!
I will try to record next time with 2 mics set as mono on Ableton.
After that, how do I set the panning of the audio to create the sense of stereo?

You are right, there are so many possibilities!

 

[Music&Ping]

Using 2 mics as mono is a no-no for an upright, don't do that: you'll have to deal with phase issues, with gain and volume issues, if you're not familiar with mixing techniques, make it simple. Using mics as mono is right for a grand, as you have to pick up different registers

Because... an upright is not strung like a grand: the low and treble strings registers are crossed, means the low register starts up high on the left and falls down on the bottom right of the soundboard. You can try the french ORTF micing technique as a stereo pair still, scoop the 200-500 Hz range, and add some gentle compression to get better sustain: on the Red 3 compressor panel, set a slow attack, slow release, low ratio, threshold at noon, input depending on the microphones' gain.
https://blog.zzounds.com/2019/04/10/recording-an-old-upright-piano/

 

[JeffM]

Using 2 mics as mono is a no-no for an upright, don't do that: you'll have to deal with phase issues, with gain and volume issues, if you're not familiar with mixing techniques, make it simple. Using mics as mono is right for a grand, as you have to pick up different registers

Because... an upright is not strung like a grand: the low and treble strings registers are crossed, means the low register starts up high on the left and falls down on the bottom right of the soundboard. You can try the french ORTF micing technique as a stereo pair still, scoop the 200-500 Hz range, and add some gentle compression to get better sustain: on the Red 3 compressor panel, set a slow attack, slow release, low ratio, threshold at noon, input depending on the microphones' gain.
https://blog.zzounds.com/2019/04/10/recording-an-old-upright-piano/

Thanks Music&Ping, hmm some different info from Kolev.

I will consider the ORTF technique. Is it meant for up close to the strings like what I did with my video or further away?
That link you posted contains very useful info! They use a third mic as a ribbon mic, which I don't have that currently.
The plugins are quite technical, I will see if I can experiment with them when I have some time!

 

[Kolev]

The plug-ins indeed can be very technical, but even the simple plug-in can easily overdo the sound.
The best would be to invest some time in mic placement and do a "perfect" capture of your performance. Change the position of mics, try the french Ortif, try mono and don't be afraid of phase problems and always look for the same distance of the mics from the source and watch your input levels and first of all trust your ears and taste
Some people need compression to equalize their dynamics or add sustain, but surely this is not your case. EQ certainly may help and in youtube you may find all the answers if you have a specific question. It pays back to find out more about mastering acoustic piano recordings.
We may be able to help you too

 

[Music&Ping]

I'll show a pic of your Red plugin compressor:

Input: it depends on your microphone gain/characteristics, placement too of course.
Ratio: low ratio means more in the 1.5:1 to 3.5:1 side
Threshold: at noon
Attack: Slow side, something like 3 o'clock
Release: slow side too, it's in milliseconds so better go the same side as the attack parameter. Auto Release is sometimes too much fast and modern, don't push that button IMHO

Make Up Gain: 0 basically, as you're not applying heavy compression with heavy gain reduction, you don't have to get back some gain.
Dry/Wet: is the amount of compression effect you'll apply to your mix Dry is 0= No effect, Wet is 100= Max effect

The Inupt/Output will show you the level you get when your input setting meets the threshold level (Input side) and the level you get AFTER compression (Output side, obviously)
https://flypaper.soundfly.com/produce/how-to-choose-compressor-settings/
More info here for ORTF technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique

 

[Music&Ping]

The plug-ins indeed can be very technical, but even the simple plug-in can easily overdo the sound.
The best would be to invest some time in mic placement and do a "perfect" capture of your performance. Change the position of mics, try the french Ortif, try mono and don't be afraid of phase problems and always look for the same distance of the mics from the source and watch your input levels and first of all trust your years and taste
Some people need compression to equalize their dynamics or add sustain, but surely this is not your case. EQ certainly may help and in youtube you may find all the answers if you have a specific question. It pays back to find out more about mastering acoustic piano recordings.
We may be able to help you too

No really, don't use mono setting:
- you'll have to deal with separate gain and volume control
- you'll have to deal with separate EQ control
- you'll have to deal with phase, and it's a nightmare, it can destroy a mix

Make it simple, pro sound techs used to make it simple in the 60's, they still do nowadays: the jazz bebop era was recorded sometimes with ONLY 1 ! microphone, it's exactly the same as using a stereo pair, it's just that the final image is wider than with a single microphone.

 

[Kolev]

Correct me if I am wrong , but two mics mono or stereo recording different sources e.g. left and right part of a piano will most likely be out of phase.
You can't give blind suggestions for a compression or EQ without listening to the material.
Last but not least , the typical example of over use of compression is your own record with the mercilessly squashed piano and pumping bass. Really nice piece of music though 🙂

 

[Kolev]

@JeffM

Jeff, your recording and set-up are already quite good and please don't jump into a conclusion that someone here doesn't like your result. BTW I have listen to recording just with headphones. Not on my monitors yet

 

[JeffM]

My newest recording with a new approach to the mic placement!

Comments / feedback welcome.

 

[Ahma]

I play bass 🙂

 

[virtuososiu]

JeffM is a good musician 🎹

 

[JeffM]

JeffM is a good musician 🎹

Thanks virtuososiu, so are you!

 

[Daryl Romero]

Learning a musical instrument not only sustains and feeds the brain, but it also improves so many other cognitive and physical aspects of the human body. It's been widely studied and proven that learning a musical instrument improves memory; it not only improves your cognitive memory but also muscle memory as well.

 

[Kolev]

Bravo JeffM.
You did it again and this time even better. Very moody performance and good , spacious recording. Nice...

 

[brokenball]

I agree, JeffM is good. Much better than me.
Nice recording too. As far a I can tell it was flawless.

 

[JeffM]

Bravo JeffM.
You did it again and this time even better. Very moody performance and good , spacious recording. Nice...

I agree, JeffM is good. Much better than me.
Nice recording too. As far a I can tell it was flawless.

Thanks so much for the feedback guys!
Look forward to your videos too!

 

[JeffM]

River Flows In You

I reverted back to the original recording mic position as I find I get too much 'noise' when playing this piece with mics too close to my arms.

Feedback / comments welcome!

 

[Kolev]

Bravo Jeff. Sweet playing and an excellent recording. Listening to both of your last recordings on my monitors , I can say that the Yiruma thing sounds definitely more balanced, smoother and tighter. For my ears the noise wasn't an issue. Out of curiosity, are you against adding some reverb to your recording ? I kind a miss it in this type of music(it's a personal thing).

 

[JeffM]

Bravo Jeff. Sweet playing and an excellent recording. Listening to both of your last recordings on my monitors , I can say that the Yiruma thing sounds definitely more balanced, smoother and tighter. For my ears the noise wasn't an issue. Out of curiosity, are you against adding some reverb to your recording ? I kind a miss it in this type of music(it's a personal thing).

Thanks Kolev!
It actually didn't come across my mind when I was publishing the video, probably because I've never done it before. I am not against it.
I wonder what it would sound like with some reverb.

I would be keen to try it.

 

[JeffM]

If just look at it from your fingers, I would think you are an elegant lady.

Haha, I will take it as a complement! That was the very first piano video haha, the sound quality is so different to now.