Fish scale. How much would be the price of this blade?

[fajrihaimi]

 

[Archosaurus]

It's arguably a manufacturing defect or error that lowers the performance of the blade, but people pay extra for it, so it depends if you're more or less honest.

 

[_Bryce_]

It's arguably a manufacturing defect or error that lowers the performance of the blade, but people pay extra for it, so it depends if you're more or less honest.

Who said that it is a manufacturing defect / error and why would it lower the performance? The fish scale pattern is the result of the so-called medullary rays that get exposed because these plies are cut differently (quarter sawn) compared to most other plies, which are cut longitudinally. That's it. These plies are supposed to be a little harder than regular plies of the same wood. But that could only be a fancy rumour.
@fajrihaimi
As for the price for this kind of blade: Take the regular retail price and add maybe 10 - 20 $; that's what a "reasonable" collector might be willing to pay.
On a side note: I cannot understand why people do not cover the serial number for Butterfly blades. Shady companies that produce counterfeits are obviously on the look out for genuine serial numbers, because they can then use them for their counterfeit blades and in the process fool potential customers into buying it...

 

[Archosaurus]

Who said that it is a manufacturing defect / error and why would it lower the performance? The fish scale pattern is the result of the so-called medullary rays that get exposed because these plies are cut differently (quarter sawn) compared to most other plies, which are cut longitudinally. That's it. These plies are supposed to be a little harder than regular plies of the same wood. But that could only be a fancy rumour.
@fajrihaimi
As for the price for this kind of blade: Take the regular retail price and add maybe 10 - 20 $; that's what a "reasonable" collector might be willing to pay.
On a side note: I cannot understand why people do not cover the serial number for Butterfly blades. Shady companies that produce counterfeits are obviously on the look out for genuine serial numbers, because they can then use them for their counterfeit blades and in the process fool potential customers into buying it...

It's more flexible and less elastic and the design spec for flexibility in the different axes gets thrown way off. Generally you'd say that's lower performance. It does have some wear and fatigue benefits over time at least in theory.

Of course this doesn't matter that much in a laminated ply blade and it's probably fine but I doubt it'd be ever selected for performance.

 

[piligrim]

Who said that it is a manufacturing defect / error and why would it lower the performance? The fish scale pattern is the result of the so-called medullary rays that get exposed because these plies are cut differently (quarter sawn) compared to most other plies, which are cut longitudinally. That's it. These plies are supposed to be a little harder than regular plies of the same wood. But that could only be a fancy rumour.
@fajrihaimi
As for the price for this kind of blade: Take the regular retail price and add maybe 10 - 20 $; that's what a "reasonable" collector might be willing to pay.
On a side note: I cannot understand why people do not cover the serial number for Butterfly blades. Shady companies that produce counterfeits are obviously on the look out for genuine serial numbers, because they can then use them for their counterfeit blades and in the process fool potential customers into buying it...

Don't buy blade without original box with matching serial number and you never will be fooled

 

[kindof99]

Fish scale used to be considered high quality/better, but now most people would agree it is inferior and just looks better cosmetically.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

The fish scale pattern is the result of the so-called medullary rays that get exposed because these plies are cut differently (quarter sawn) compared to most other plies, which are cut longitudinally. That's it. These plies are supposed to be a little harder than regular plies of the same wood. But that could only be a fancy rumour.

This is a common misconception, which, as far as I can tell, originated on this forum or another one like it.

A wooden board is most dimensionally stable when it is cut perfectly perpendicular to the growth rings of the tree it comes from. Quarter-sawing is a milling method to produce boards cut roughly perpendicular to the growth rings. It is rarely exactly perpendicular because of the geometry and irregular growth of trees, and it can occasionally be quite far off from 90 degrees.

Every wood ply used in reputable manufactured blades is quarter-sawn, in the sense that it comes from some quarter-sawing process intended to produce perpendicularly cut boards. But when a piece of wood happens to be cut at a very oblique angle to the growth rings, and for certain kinds of wood (like koto), it can have a “fish scale” like appearance. This is a tell-tale sign that the wood has been cut at a sharp angle relative to the growth rings, which you can also tell visually by the growth ring lines being relatively far apart (or by looking at the end grain of the ply). This piece of wood is less dimensionally stable and less durable than if it had been cut perpendicular to the growth rings.

What this means for the performance of a particular table tennis blade is unclear. It could still be a high-quality blade for other reasons. In my experience fish scale blades have a greater tendency to be duds (very soft or hollow feeling) and also more fragile, since the fish scale wood chips more easily. I personally avoid buying them.

 

[pong99]

ZJK never played fishscale, if BTY sent him a blade with fishscale, he wouldn't bother trying it. Fishscale is not uniform. He wants all his blades to be have consistent light colored wood. Also good info on other blade myths.

 

[steve888]

I have fishscale blade on FZD, it had much better feeling than a friends non fish scale blade, for some reason his lacked power . So I think each blade can be slightly different- depending on weight, density, thickness etc

 

[jonol]

I have a fishscale blade purely by chance since it was ordered online.

Feels good to play, more or less what you'd expect of an outer carbon Viscaria clone.

It's hard for me to believe that the 0.5mm or so fishscale koto ply would behave noticeably different to another koto ply.

Inclined to believe that differences in total blade thickness, weight and ply construction are much more impactful and noticeable.

 

[Wakkibatty]

....it's hard for me to believe that the 0.5mm or so fishscale koto ply would behave noticeably different to another koto ply.

Inclined to believe that differences in total blade thickness, weight and ply construction are much more impactful and noticeable.

This is spot on.

Medullary rays are typically made up of very different cell types to regular wood, regardless of whether its a hardwood or softwood tree you're talking about.

Medullary rays are part of a tree's circulatory system, and can considerably vary in both thickness and number.

In some trees they are relatively rare and are barely a few cells wide, making them difficult to spot.

In other species however they can be extremely numerous, can measure several mm wide and contain numerous different cell types / cell shapes, with cellular geometry that can differs from cell to cell.

In all cases however, they are not a structural feature of the tree -- they exist to transmit water and nutrients, so do not have the same strength levels as a tree's regular structural / load bearing cells (i.e.: fibers and/or trachids).

That being said, on their own, having lots of medullary rays in a veneer really doesn't represent much of a structural risk to a blade. Once the veneer is glued to the rest of the blade's layers, any actual difference in blade strength is negligible.

(...unless of course if there's a problem with the veneer's lamination, and/or if there's any trapped air underneath the outer veneers -- in which case, yes you might get outer veneer breakage. Thing is though, the breakage is more due to bad lamination rather than any inherent flaw in the timber).

Long story short, in the vast majority of cases, while medullary rays can potentially create an inherently weaker spot in a veneer in certain circumstances IN THEORY, they really don't create any real difference in blade strength IN PRACTICE.

Once the veneer in question is laminated to the rest of the blade, the risk of the veneer breaking at a medullary ray basically drops virtually to zero. The veneer is more than ably supported and reinforced by the mass and strength of the rest of the blade.

Really, Medullary rays are just another cellular feature of certain timbers -- even if you can't see them, they can still be present in the timber anyway, and blade makers factor them and their existance into their thinking, and make allowances for them all the time in their designs (one way or another 🙂).

They are an integral part of the timber, and therefore should not be thought of as a reason to avoid purchasing a particular blade.

 

[Haito]

I have fishscale blade on FZD, it had much better feeling than a friends non fish scale blade, for some reason his lacked power . So I think each blade can be slightly different- depending on weight, density, thickness etc

When we were at Borussia Dusseldorf store, i tapped a bunch FZD blades. They were not the most uniform. I think it might be something related to production method.

 

[barusu]

Don't buy blade without original box with matching serial number and you never will be fooled

But.. what's stopping the fake manufacturer to make an identical fake box and print the copied serial number on the box?

 

[piligrim]

But.. what's stopping the fake manufacturer to make an identical fake box and print the copied serial number on the box?

I don't know but never seen fake blade with box. All fake blades on Aliexpress sold in plastic wrap and without box

 

[SDC]

A member asked my opinion on this, so that's why I'm here. I think that Wakkibatty said pretty much everything, but let me add a few points.

- First off, there's no spec other than the fact that the top ply is Koto, that's the spec. Koto, like all woods, varies greatly in properties, stiffness and hardness are generally proportional to density (within the same species), and they do not control the density of the plies they use in these blades. That's why you end up with Viscarias that range from 80-90g for example. Those blades will behave very differently from each other, even if they they meet the "spec". Could they control this and potentially make different models that share the same composition, but just differ in the density of the layers? For example one with denser top plies and lighter core, and vice-versa? Absolutely. Do they? I don't know, but I don't think they do.

- Differences in blades from the same model may happen for a number of reasons in the manufacturing process. Please stop assuming that everything is related to the top ply.

- Koto is always quarter cut in commercial TT blades. I don't think I ever saw flat sawn, or other types of cuts other than small manufacturers, so that's not even an issue. The problem is that you are assuming that the medullary rays grow perfectly perpendicular to the grain, which doesn't happen. Sometimes the angle is a bit more open, and that's enough to exposed them.

- The variation you get in having fish scale or not, is less than the variation you get from Koto sourced from different trees / origins / batches. So you don't need to worry if it increases or lowers performance, it's just a cosmetic feature.

 

[K.K]

A member asked my opinion on this, so that's why I'm here. I think that Wakkibatty said pretty much everything, but let me add a few points.

- First off, there's no spec other than the fact that the top ply is Koto, that's the spec. Koto, like all woods, varies greatly in properties, stiffness and hardness are generally proportional to density (within the same species), and they do not control the density of the plies they use in these blades. That's why you end up with Viscarias that range from 80-90g for example. Those blades will behave very differently from each other, even if they they meet the "spec". Could they control this and potentially make different models that share the same composition, but just differ in the density of the layers? For example one with denser top plies and lighter core, and vice-versa? Absolutely. Do they? I don't know, but I don't think they do.

- Differences in blades from the same model may happen for a number of reasons in the manufacturing process. Please stop assuming that everything is related to the top ply.

- Koto is always quarter cut in commercial TT blades. I don't think I ever saw flat sawn, or other types of cuts other than small manufacturers, so that's not even an issue. The problem is that you are assuming that the medullary rays grow perfectly perpendicular to the grain, which doesn't happen. Sometimes the angle is a bit more open, and that's enough to exposed them.

- The variation you get in having fish scale or not, is less than the variation you get from Koto sourced from different trees / origins / batches. So you don't need to worry if it increases or lowers performance, it's just a cosmetic feature.

so you basically sazying that we can’t judge a blades playing properties solely on the look by the outer layer? or any layers color or look?
i’d ask this, because the same friend of mine that told me about the sanding of the top ply also told me that he learned from zhang jike that ‘fishscale’ is bad and just straight grain blades with light color are good blades.
I on the other hand never cared about this and always just asked for a specific weight to judge a blades playing properties inside on series like for example viscaria (or my own xiom HAL).
so can we judge anything before we buy a blade or is it just pure luck if we get a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ one?

 

[SDC]

so you basically sazying that we can’t judge a blades playing properties solely on the look by the outer layer? or any layers color or look?
i’d ask this, because the same friend of mine that told me about the sanding of the top ply also told me that he learned from zhang jike that ‘fishscale’ is bad and just straight grain blades with light color are good blades.
I on the other hand never cared about this and always just asked for a specific weight to judge a blades playing properties inside on series like for example viscaria (or my own xiom HAL).
so can we judge anything before we buy a blade or is it just pure luck if we get a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ one?

I think you can apply that logic to many things in life, there's even a saying, right? "Don't judge a book by the cover".

You can judge the cover, in this case the top ply, there are visual cues that tell you if it's a denser Koto or not, but that doesn't tell you much about how the blade performs overall. By the way, the grain is still pretty straight on this blade, you need to look at the grain, not the medullary rays. The main disadvantage of fish scale is that is more prone to splintering. Usually it's not a problem if the blade is well finished and sealed, but for me it makes my job harder.

Butterfly presses their blades in big piles, all at once. The blades in the extremes get compressed more than the blades in the middle, the force dissipates towards the middle of the pile. Those blades will undoubtedly play a little differently from each other, even if everything else is exactly the same. This is just an example of how the manufacturing process affects the performance.

You can judge the weight, not much more besides that. If you have the option of holding the blades, you can tap them to get hear the pitch.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think you can apply that logic to many things in life, there's even a saying, right? "Don't judge a book by the cover".

You can judge the cover, in this case the top ply, there are visual cues that tell you if it's a denser Koto or not, but that doesn't tell you much about how the blade performs overall. By the way, the grain is still pretty straight on this blade, you need to look at the grain, not the medullary rays. The main disadvantage of fish scale is that is more prone to splintering. Usually it's not a problem if the blade is well finished and sealed, but for me it makes my job harder.

Butterfly presses their blades in big piles, all at once. The blades in the extremes get compressed more than the blades in the middle, the force dissipates towards the middle of the pile. Those blades will undoubtedly play a little differently from each other, even if everything else is exactly the same. This is just an example of how the manufacturing process affects the performance.

You can judge the weight, not much more besides that. If you have the option of holding the blades, you can tap them to get hear the pitch.

How expensive do you think BTY blades would be if they didn't cut corners like that? :O

 

[SDC]

How expensive do you think BTY blades would be if they didn't cut corners like that? :O

I don't think it's cutting corners, it's just part of mass making, I don't know how other companies do it. They could be sending those middle blades to the Viscaria pile and the top ones to the TB ALC pile for example, that I don't know...

 

[Archosaurus]

I don't think it's cutting corners, it's just part of mass making, I don't know how other companies do it. They could be sending those middle blades to the Viscaria pile and the top ones to the TB ALC pile for example, that I don't know...

Maybe that could be one explanation for why people feel like BTY's Viscaria derivatives like FZD still feel very different from all the others even if they "should" be the same? All made in the same batch then picked out differently.