Generating heavy backspin with long pips chop

[greenbeanmachine]

After playing as a long pips chopper for a while, it seems like there is a pretty big difficulty with the setup: when the opponent sends no-spin balls to the backhand. Watching pro choppers, it seems like they manage to chop the no-spin balls with enough backspin so that the opponent doesn't have an easy attack on the next ball, and I am wondering how they manage to do this.

Are there any choppers here who can give me some technique tips for how to generate maximum backspin with long pips? I'm still not sure how to do it well and there's not much advice on YouTube -- all the tutorials are for how to play OX long pips push-block style. Any tips or intuition for the feeling and technique would be greatly appreciated.

Is there a rubber which is best for generating spin on empty balls? I've been using Feint Long 2/3 with max sponge, and considering trying some of the Victas Curl rubbers.

 

[MOJOJOJO-74]

After playing as a long pips chopper for a while, it seems like there is a pretty big difficulty with the setup: when the opponent sends no-spin balls to the backhand. Watching pro choppers, it seems like they manage to chop the no-spin balls with enough backspin so that the opponent doesn't have an easy attack on the next ball, and I am wondering how they manage to do this.

Are there any choppers here who can give me some technique tips for how to generate maximum backspin with long pips? I'm still not sure how to do it well and there's not much advice on YouTube -- all the tutorials are for how to play OX long pips push-block style. Any tips or intuition for the feeling and technique would be greatly appreciated.

Is there a rubber which is best for generating spin on empty balls? I've been using Feint Long 2/3 with max sponge, and considering trying some of the Victas Curl rubbers.

You should try Victas Curl P1V max sponge, which is what Joo Sae-hyuk uses, also know as the best defender of all time. Even though it's a challenge video, I think you could see a good view of his backhand chop with long pips while it's being looped to his backhand side. Also OOAK forum should be able to find you much better advice and possibly videos.

 

[andymagata]

Search Greg Letts - long pips legend!

You will not find better advice for amateur anywhere else.

 

[Ultravisitor]

After playing as a long pips chopper for a while, it seems like there is a pretty big difficulty with the setup: when the opponent sends no-spin balls to the backhand. Watching pro choppers, it seems like they manage to chop the no-spin balls with enough backspin so that the opponent doesn't have an easy attack on the next ball, and I am wondering how they manage to do this.

Are there any choppers here who can give me some technique tips for how to generate maximum backspin with long pips? I'm still not sure how to do it well and there's not much advice on YouTube -- all the tutorials are for how to play OX long pips push-block style. Any tips or intuition for the feeling and technique would be greatly appreciated.

Is there a rubber which is best for generating spin on empty balls? I've been using Feint Long 2/3 with max sponge, and considering trying some of the Victas Curl rubbers.

These are already the the grippiest lps so equipment is not the issue. Maybe Victas p4v is a little more grippy, but should be about the same as feint 3. If you really want to be dangerous you should learn to twiddle and attack these balls with your inverted rubber. Even twiddle to push is a skill worth training. Ruwen Filus is really good at it. He twiddles at the very last moment.

 

[belllfador]

Things that can improve spin generation - slow and flexible blade with a softer top layer. Thicker sponge, soft and gripy pips and, most importantly, fast hand movement. Twiddle can solve your issue, just practice more to include it.

 

[greenbeanmachine]

You should try Victas Curl P1V max sponge, which is what Joo Sae-hyuk uses, also know as the best defender of all time.

Ah okay good to know thanks!

Even though it's a challenge video, I think you could see a good view of his backhand chop with long pips while it's being looped to his backhand side. Also OOAK forum should be able to find you much better advice and possibly videos.

Yes I watch a lot of Joo Sae Hyuk, I really like his form and I learned a lot from him. Right now I think my chop against topspin is very good, almost always my opponent puts it in the net. My question is about chopping a no-spin ball, which I did not see much in that video. I am struggling to return backspin against no-spin balls, so that the opponent can't attack the next ball.

I'll be sure to check out OOAK!

 

[greenbeanmachine]

If you really want to be dangerous you should learn to twiddle and attack these balls with your inverted rubber. Even twiddle to push is a skill worth training. Ruwen Filus is really good at it. He twiddles at the very last moment.

Definitely working on my twiddle. I often twiddle in the rally after I chop, opponent pushes, and then I twiddle to push with my inverted rubber. Sometimes I twiddle to counterattack when the opponent loops my chop, and sometimes I twiddle to banana flick a weak return.

But many times, especially on serve, I don't have time to think and twiddle, I just need to deal with a fast no-spin ball coming to my backhand. I want to have a shot in my arsenal where I can chop with pips and it doesn't let my opponent kill the next ball. It seems like pro players can do this, and I'm already using the grippiest pips, so what am I missing? I think I'm missing some element of feeling or technique with the pips.

I do like twiddling, but I also can't help but notice that Joo Sae Hyuk manages to generate heavy backspin with his backhand and I don't see him twiddling at all, except on serve. Having that ability to generate your own backspin with pips seems very valuable.

 

[greenbeanmachine]

Things that can improve spin generation - slow and flexible blade with a softer top layer. Thicker sponge, soft and gripy pips and, most importantly, fast hand movement. Twiddle can solve your issue, just practice more to include it.

Oh, this is good to know, thank you!

Can you say more about fast hand movement? My impression was that the chop should be a very relaxed movement generated mostly from the hips.

When chopping topspin I try to relax everything and snap my arm. When chopping backspin I found it's best to keep the wrist stiff and make a movement from the elbow. When chopping no-spin, which of these should I use? Or is it something else entirely? Should I make a very wrist-y motion as if I am trying to push with inverted rubber?

Do you have any tips for learning such a movement? Or how it should feel in your hand when you execute the movement well? Do you have anything to compare it to, like how some people compare backhand loop to throwing a frisbee?

 

[passifid]

you cant really generate "heavy spin". Watch the professional choppers, if possible backspin and no spin balls they flip to inverted to chop or push on the backhand side becauseof this

 

[blahness]

I'm not a chopper, but my experience with upgrading my push is that the wrist and fingers are super important. For shakehand BH push, pressing on the index fingertip was crucial in my journey of upgrading the spin.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I'm not a chopper, but my experience with upgrading my push is that the wrist and fingers are super important. For shakehand BH push, pressing on the index fingertip was crucial in my journey of upgrading the spin.

not the main topic but Andreas Levenko in a recent video suggests to have a different (looser) grip to execute over the table techniques like push, flicks etc...check it

 

[Matteones]

Putting heavy backspin on a incoming no-spin ball with long pimples is simply impossible, because it would mean they are capable of producing heavy rotation, which is exactly the opposite of what they are built for. Now, with some grippy pimples (like Feint Long III that I have used for a while as I was exploring the beautiful modern defense style) you can produce some backspin and some variation on no-spin balls, and that's pretty much all you can do. Feint Long II is less grippy and you can produce even less backspin on your own, but you can for sure produce heavy backspin on topspin balls.
In those 6 months I explored the modern defense style the no spin balls on my backhand were indeed the hardest to deal with, I solved by either pivoting or switching to the inverted rubber, either to cut or to attack (because only with a grippy and spinny rubber you can produce your own spin).

 

[andymagata]

Putting heavy backspin on a incoming no-spin ball with long pimples is simply impossible, because it would mean they are capable of producing heavy rotation, which is exactly the opposite of what they are built for. Now, with some grippy pimples (like Feint Long III that I have used for a while as I was exploring the beautiful modern defense style) you can produce some backspin and some variation on no-spin balls, and that's pretty much all you can do. Feint Long II is less grippy and you can produce even less backspin on your own, but you can for sure produce heavy backspin on topspin balls.
In those 6 months I explored the modern defense style the no spin balls on my backhand were indeed the hardest to deal with, I solved by either pivoting or switching to the inverted rubber, either to cut or to attack (because only with a grippy and spinny rubber you can produce your own spin).

Shouldn't no spin balls be possible to attack with long pips with the fast and hard windscreen viper sideswipe motion, but tmaybe that only works on lower level players and what is the point of a rubber that can only do one type of stroke anyway? But it is a beautiful shot with amazing feeling.

 

[Tyce]

not the main topic but Andreas Levenko in a recent video suggests to have a different (looser) grip to execute over the table techniques like push, flicks etc...check it

Andreas Levenko has demonstrated his level of knowledge about pimples though

 

[Matteones]

Shouldn't no spin balls be possible to attack with long pips with the fast and hard windscreen viper sideswipe motion, but tmaybe that only works on lower level players and what is the point of a rubber that can only do one type of stroke anyway? But it is a beautiful shot with amazing feeling.

In my opinion that hard sideswipe motion works very well on an incoming backspin ball, not a no-spin. No-spin balls are notoriously long pimples (and any rubber that can't produce spin on their own) Achille's heel. Now, a long pimple with sponge that doesn't reverse too much (like Feing Long), can actually produce some spin on its own, and that's what you can work with. I had more success attacking a no-spin ball than defending it, but it's a suprise move that doesn't work many times if the other player has some understanding of spin and tabletennis, so the only solution is variation, pivoting, twiddling etc. .
There is a reason these are highly specialized rubbers only used for certain styles, it's because they heavily limit your possibilities while providing a very specific service (high to very high spin insensitivity, which of course must translate to incapability of producing spin).

 

[merlin el mago]

If the long pips are NOT allowed by ITTF , then forget generating heavy backspin with long pips!!!

Modified to avoid any kind of confusion, of course I'm against ITTF ban of long pips.

 

[andymagata]

Just another food for thought, go and watch WTT Feeder Cappadocia that is played at the moment. Chopper Yuka Kaneyoshi is twiddling all the time, according to AI she uses long pips and short pips, and she twiddle to short pips most of the time, she has some of the heaviest backspin I have seen on feeder level ( I have only watched for a year though).

 

[SwingRobo]

In koji Matsushita’s videos he emphasized that the ball must be rubbed near the bottom and then smoothly pushed forward,perhaps push with only pimples and don't let the ball go into the sponge is the key point，some lp players could even use this to make medium-intensity backspin serve，just only let the pimple lodge，if the ball go into the sponge ，it provide less spin in backspin push

 

[belllfador]

Oh, this is good to know, thank you!

Can you say more about fast hand movement? My impression was that the chop should be a very relaxed movement generated mostly from the hips.

When chopping topspin I try to relax everything and snap my arm. When chopping backspin I found it's best to keep the wrist stiff and make a movement from the elbow. When chopping no-spin, which of these should I use? Or is it something else entirely? Should I make a very wrist-y motion as if I am trying to push with inverted rubber?

Do you have any tips for learning such a movement? Or how it should feel in your hand when you execute the movement well? Do you have anything to compare it to, like how some people compare backhand loop to throwing a frisbee?

Watch Honoka Hashimoto. See how fast she moves her hand. Looking from a far her play is like a dance. But that is coming from thousands of hours of practice. And there is a lot of tension if you focus on the details. For example, how fast she twiddles, how she changes blade angle, service variations, etc. She is able to generate a lot of spin with not the gripiest pips Supper Do Knuckle 1.4mm (other sources are pointing to Do Knuckle). I have SDK on a similar blade and my spin is mediocre at best. Currently, my spiniest LP pips are 388D-1 with 1mm soft sponge, but with them other aspects of my game suffer, so, I prefer Ilius B 1.3mm. The spin is enough to put my opponents in the thinking mode and I can lift the ball over the net with short flick movement. Block is sufficient with little spin reverse.

There are a few defenders that are using inverted rubbers on both sides. I consider myself related to this group - my spiniest chops are with H3N, FH and BH. But inverted are sensitive to incoming spin. You always need to track incoming spin direction. Service return is difficult, and setup weight is higher. Using MP or LP brings one more dimension in the game. And if you chose the dark art of pips mastery, tweddle mid-point will give you 200 TTR.

Hand relaxing is a way to take some of the ball energy. Use of a slow blade and thicker sponge will balance that. The pips will bend more and will grip the ball better. Personally, I don't consider my technic good, but can generate some spin with LP on an empty ball. My goal is high brushing speed with some pushing force. My grip is tight, and I put some tension in my muscles before the movement. I am trying to use all of my hand, shoulder and body. But not as much as FH loop with H3 😁

 

[greenbeanmachine]

Putting heavy backspin on a incoming no-spin ball with long pimples is simply impossible, because it would mean they are capable of producing heavy rotation, which is exactly the opposite of what they are built for. Now, with some grippy pimples (like Feint Long III that I have used for a while as I was exploring the beautiful modern defense style) you can produce some backspin and some variation on no-spin balls, and that's pretty much all you can do.

Yeah, of course I won't be able to generate the same amount of backspin compared to an inverted rubber. So I guess what I am asking is: how do I generate enough backspin to make my opponent hesitate on their next attack? The pro players seem to be able to make sufficient spin with their pips, maybe even like 50rps. How do I learn how to do this?

so the only solution is variation, pivoting, twiddling etc. .

It seems like most modern players solve the problem by twiddling, but I am still amazed by how little Joo Sae Hyuk twiddles. So far I only see him twiddling for the serve. Even when he gets a no-spin ball, he seems to be able to chop it enough that the opponent has to visibly slow down their attack and lift the backspin. This is what I want to learn.

Watch Honoka Hashimoto. See how fast she moves her hand. Looking from a far her play is like a dance. But that is coming from thousands of hours of practice. And there is a lot of tension if you focus on the details. For example, how fast she twiddles, how she changes blade angle, service variations, etc.

Yeah, she really is amazing. Her form looks like she strawberry chops most balls... interesting.

I have SDK on a similar blade and my spin is mediocre at best.

Same for me, sadly Do you know how to make better spin?

Sometimes if I strawberry chop an empty ball I can make a good amount of spin, but somehow I can't do this with straight backspin chop.

Currently, my spiniest LP pips are 388D-1 with 1mm soft sponge, but with them other aspects of my game suffer, so, I prefer Ilius B 1.3mm.

Interesting, I thought 388D-1 is not that spinny. To chop with it I mostly just play a passive push and take advantage of spin reversal. This doesn't work for Feint Long, though.