How do Pros train to "retain" a skill?

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
4,971
2,477
7,821
This is just about ingraining stuff into your subconsciousness. Even the service has a toss, timing, stroke, height, posture, speed, body, arm, wrist, grip... So many elements. Even the level of agitation will influence the result here.

Practice, and lots of it, helps move some of the elements to be automated, subconscious elements. And the more that gets automated, the fewer variables can distort the result.

When you get in the zone in practice, this is basically a short term memory action. Short term will get pruned and processed to be stored in long term memory. What you are experiencing is the human ability to adaptively replicate a pattern in your working memory. What you want to achieve is being able to replicate the pattern from long term memory AND influence your decision making so this is the shot your working memory will pick.

Really, this is only a simple version of events. There's a lot more at work than just what you see at the surface
So does everybody else also experience this short term vs long term memory?

Is there scientific method to force it into long term memory? Like the idea about doing something else and coming back to the original skill sounds like a plausible technique. Or just practicing the same thing for 3 months?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
4,971
2,477
7,821
Theres a few skills ive been practicing and focusing on.

1}looping long receive. I feel the fh is somewhat in the long term memory. I feel i can usually do this. Bh side i need more practices before i get into the 'got it' phase.

2) looping 3rd ball. Im doing this reasonably well...but i still have to consciously remind myself to loop 3rd ball. My natural tendency is to kinda sit back and lean back after serve.

3) looping LP off of push. This is the scenario i brought up here, and definitely still feels like short term memory for me. I know i can do it really well only after i enter 'got it' phase
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,514
18,206
56,262
Read 11 reviews
Right, but in my specific example, there is a lot less variation. In fact it almost always plays out exactly like I expect.
1) I serve dead ball to LP backhand
2) LP kinda pushes/blocks back a dead ball
3) I go to loop it with either my fh or bh

Of course, there is depth, height, spin, many variables. But relatively speaking, I feel this is a fairly predictable pattern. It's more like my hand doesn't remember the hitting feeling and the exact angle needed.

If I practiced 30 of these shots before the match and got into the "got it" zone, I think I would be able to do it in the game much better. But do other people also experience this "reset" experience that I am describing?
Assuming I keep practicing for for 3 months, will I experience less of that "reset" experience?

I would say, before the match, first do the block practice that gets you grooving the shot so you feel confident; then try to do a random practice where that ball is given to you randomly after any number of other balls and see how that goes. When you can get those in solidly, see how it feels to play a match against this person and try to execute those shots. One of the ideas with using practice to try and transfer the skill to match play is that AT A CERTAIN POINT, the practice drill has to be HARDER to accomplish than the skill you are attempting in match play so that the skill in match play seems EASY.

I even have this reset on my own serve (no randomness, completely in my own control). On one day I might get in the "got it" zone and get great feeling for spin and length and speed. Then the next day, I have the reset and my hand doesn't have the feeling. The Bot's answer was good and gives good insight, but I don't think it describes exactly what I'm talking about either. Because the serve has no randomness at all, it's just my own toss but I still experience the reset.

This is normal also. If before you start playing matches, you go to a table alone and practice serving for 30 min every time you play for the next few months, that drop off in groove of serve will start higher, but there will still be a dropoff from just walking in to the hall and hitting the point where you groove.

There is a reason why you warm up and start by knocking the ball around a bit before you start playing. It does take a while, every day you play, to get zoned in to the eye-hand connection/coordination that allows you to put the racket on the ball in that very specific way you do when looping, or serving, or pushing.

And practicing serves is worthwhile. A lot of people don't realize that. I have heard people complain that when they went to China to train they just got sent off to a table to practice serves. Those coaches would see when the person had practiced serves enough to be ready to practice other things. But most of the people I heard that from lost interest because they did not practice serves regularly.

There is more to serving than you realize. And if you don't realize the toss on your serve has a random element, then you are in the mode of thinking that every toss you do is perfect and exactly the same. I am pretty confident that is not the case. Despite the fact that each toss is a little different, you still have to touch the ball VERY PRECISELY, to get that massive spin on a serve. That takes a lot of skill. So does making the contact look the same while varying the amount of spin you are putting on the ball. And in serving, varying spin (both intensity and kind) is much more valuable than how much spin you get. If you serve with MASSIVE spin every time, no matter how much spin that is, a decent player will get used to it. But if you are good at showing the same motion and varying the amount of spin, you will get lots of loose balls for your third ball.

So does everybody else also experience this short term vs long term memory?

Is there scientific method to force it into long term memory? Like the idea about doing something else and coming back to the original skill sounds like a plausible technique. Or just practicing the same thing for 3 months?

Yes. It isn't memory but sensory perception and brain processing. When you just walked in off the street where you needed to see and adjust to things like, cars, other people, where to step if there is a change in height of the ground, like over a street curb or pothole, etc etc, that is very different sensory perception and brain processing than reading the speed of the ball, the spin on the ball, the trajectory, different ways of contacting the ball for different shots.

All that stuff does happen at a level that is below consciousness. But it takes a while for your perceptions and your reactions to start lining up.

And as you improve, the resets are less, but your level is higher so it could seem like they are more because you are expecting to be at the level you are able to play at but things have not started clicking in your neural circuitry to get you to be playing at that level yet.

Theres a few skills ive been practicing and focusing on.

1}looping long receive. I feel the fh is somewhat in the long term memory. I feel i can usually do this. Bh side i need more practices before i get into the 'got it' phase.

2) looping 3rd ball. Im doing this reasonably well...but i still have to consciously remind myself to loop 3rd ball. My natural tendency is to kinda sit back and lean back after serve.

3) looping LP off of push. This is the scenario i brought up here, and definitely still feels like short term memory for me. I know i can do it really well only after i enter 'got it' phase

All of these things take time and consistent back and forth from block training to random training to match play and back over and over.

Part of the reason it may be easier for you to get the FH looping is that the FH stroke is a much bigger stroke which makes it more forgiving vs long backspin. If you watch top pros playing vs a good chopper, they will often use their FH almost exclusively if the chopper is a decent level. It is much harder to loop backspin over and over vs a chopper while just using BH. There are guys whose BH is so good they can do it. But even most BH dominant players will use their FH almost exclusively vs a good chopper.

Looping those weird balls off a decent LP player who is throwing you weird dead and wobble balls, you will get used to it over time. And if you continue going from block training to groove the shot, to random training, so that you are then doing the shot without knowing it is coming, to trying the shot during a match (even if, during the match it is more predictable than in your random training), it will start to click and stay.

A lot of that reset is really eye-hand perception and neural processing that will gel if you keeping going through that cycle -> block -> random -> match.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TensorBackhand
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,514
18,206
56,262
Read 11 reviews
Watch this video of ZJK doing multiball drills to hone skills back in the day:


Watch the whole thing. Note the variety of different kinds of drills they work on with him. Note the random drills: how much faster some of the are than a real game ever could be. Note those drills where they throw backspin in in the middle of topspin. The drills where he is covering the whole table with only FH. Watch all and see if you can pick up as many ideas for training as you can.

There may be footage of other players training like this. But for some reason, the footage of ZJK training multiball, to me seems to show the most real training. Multiball I have seen from other players often seems more about showing off something that looks fancy but that the pro is doing really effortlessly. ZJK is getting run through the ringer in some of those exercises.

The principles for a lot of creative ways to train in TT are hidden in these drills they are torturing ZJK with in the video. And clearly, when he was doing these drills was when he was at the top of his game. So, this is how the top pros train to retain skills.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
4,971
2,477
7,821
Watch this video of ZJK doing multiball drills to hone skills back in the day:


Watch the whole thing. Note the variety of different kinds of drills they work on with him. Note the random drills: how much faster some of the are than a real game ever could be. Note those drills where they throw backspin in in the middle of topspin. The drills where he is covering the whole table with only FH. Watch all and see if you can pick up as many ideas for training as you can.

There may be footage of other players training like this. But for some reason, the footage of ZJK training multiball, to me seems to show the most real training. Multiball I have seen from other players often seems more about showing off something that looks fancy but that the pro is doing really effortlessly. ZJK is getting run through the ringer in some of those exercises.

The principles for a lot of creative ways to train in TT are hidden in these drills they are torturing ZJK with in the video. And clearly, when he was doing these drills was when he was at the top of his game. So, this is how the top pros train to retain skills.
Cool, I'll try to think of and design some high utility drills for me. Today I was training with a big box of about 80 balls (I think). I took the entire box and used first half to do 3rd ball loop with bh with some serve variation. Then 2nd half I did bh 2nd ball loop receive off long underspin serve. I'm quite confident to loop receive with FH, but very hesitant with bh. I'm really afraid of hitting the table with my bh.

I did about 6 or 7 balls of this drill, so I think I practiced like 500 shots.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
10,308
9,938
25,526
Read 3 reviews
Cool, I'll try to think of and design some high utility drills for me. Today I was training with a big box of about 80 balls (I think). I took the entire box and used first half to do 3rd ball loop with bh with some serve variation. Then 2nd half I did bh 2nd ball loop receive off long underspin serve. I'm quite confident to loop receive with FH, but very hesitant with bh. I'm really afraid of hitting the table with my bh.

I did about 6 or 7 balls of this drill, so I think I practiced like 500 shots.
500 is a good start.
when I was coaching in South Africa, my container is about 250 to 300 balls.
give them some 10 seconds break in between when they are exhausted, this is really just few mins of work out.

need to be doing thousands of balls in a hour to really push your body to the level that can "retain" a skill set.

the first step is, you have too few balls. you probably spend more time picking up than you do hitting the ball.
the second step is get tools to help pick up balls - pickers, or collection nets etc.
 
says I want to train...
Interesting, @AutomaticBackhand. Is it your own bot? What do you use?
I used a bunch of coaching / teaching transcriptions from Hemming Hu's online coaching, some Quanshibao videos and my own feedback / description to train one of the newest Google AI Models via aistudio.google.com , they are free and extremely good.
I also worked my way around reducing the total text it needs to function so that it can answer in ~40 seconds instead of 160-200 seconds before without losing information.
It was a lot of "work" but it's good now.
And there is a lot else to do.

At the start it would think there was backspin and Topspin in open rallies and the answers were just all over the place and mostly way too generic but now it's quite good and can only get better in the future.
It can answer questions about technique, training, improvement etc..

I can send share the link, if you or anyone else is interested.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mattlamperouge
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Jul 2017
836
440
1,387
You need repetitions to maintain skill but you can also work on making practice more game like.

For example when a beginner practices loop vs underspin coach will play an easy "floaty" push. Later they will play a faster and/or spinnier push to make it more challenging.

Also you can make practice more random and unpredictable so the student doesn't know what is coming.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Nov 2013
225
141
379
I have a bias that random practice is best only AFTER a skill has been well learned. First, learn a skill (e.g., backhand stroke against underspin) through many repetitions and coaching (video feedback is really helpful at this stage, as you may be be doing what you think you are doing). Then incorporate randomness and transitions from one stroke to another to reflect more game-like situations.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Mar 2024
99
70
180
I used a bunch of coaching / teaching transcriptions from Hemming Hu's online coaching, some Quanshibao videos and my own feedback / description to train one of the newest Google AI Models via aistudio.google.com , they are free and extremely good.
I also worked my way around reducing the total text it needs to function so that it can answer in ~40 seconds instead of 160-200 seconds before without losing information.
It was a lot of "work" but it's good now.
And there is a lot else to do.

At the start it would think there was backspin and Topspin in open rallies and the answers were just all over the place and mostly way too generic but now it's quite good and can only get better in the future.
It can answer questions about technique, training, improvement etc..

I can send share the link, if you or anyone else is interested.
Yes please, it could be helpful for me!
 
Top