How does paddle palace come up with their rubber speed/spin ratings?

[TensorBackhand]

Does PP do their own testing to determine the speed ratings? For example they have Dignics as 96 for speed, Hammond Z2 as 98, and Nittaku G1 as 95 for speed. This seems basically correct to me from my own testing impressions.

But how did PP come up with these ratings? Have you found them largely to be accurate across all the rubbers?

 

[zeio]

rubber ratings

If two different brand of rubbers have the same ratings, can I consider them to work the same in general...

mytabletennis.net

I talked to a person at Paddle Palace a few months ago and asked them how they rated their rubbers and blades. The person whom I talked to said that a person there just plays with it some and assigns numbers based on his opinion.

https://www.paddlepalace.com/images/cat312-Web-FULL-lores.pdf

RUBBER RATINGS:
Rubbers are assigned ratings for Speed, Spin, & Control on
a scale of 10 to 99. The higher the rating, the higher that
attribute. Paddle Palace ratings use a universal scale which
differs from the manufacturers’ ratings so that rubbers from
all brands can be compared.
Ratings are intended only as a tool for helping to select rubber.
Naturally, speed, spin, and control are greatly affected by an
individual player’s skill, strokes, playing style, and blade.
This Paddle Palace catalog includes Comparison Charts
with all the rubber ratings, so you can see it at a glance.

 

[TensorBackhand]

rubber ratings

If two different brand of rubbers have the same ratings, can I consider them to work the same in general...

mytabletennis.net

https://www.paddlepalace.com/images/cat312-Web-FULL-lores.pdf

wow that's incredible that somebody has played with every single rubber in PP's catalogue

 

[allfj]

wow that's incredible that somebody has played with every single rubber in PP's catalogue

I think its not just 1 person, but an average of many people who reviewed those rubbers/added them to the list

 

[brokenball]

The paddle palace is only about 20 miles from where I live. I have asked the same question. The answer I got is that they play with the rubbers and form an opinion or consensus. There is no scientific basis for the ratings.

BTW, I played against Judy Bochensky now Judy Hoarforst way back in the early 1970s just after she got assigned to the Ping Pong diplomacy team. I lost about 21-14 but she said I was good for a garage or basement player. I was still playing with a Sears Hard bat against the best rubber she could obtain at the time. Judy was putting on an exposition at the East Port Plaza in SE Portland. I lived Portland OR at the time. This was before I went to college. 1971-1975

Now her son, Ryan does a lot of the evaluations but they do provide samples to some of the local coaches. My first coach would get a sample from time to time and I would get to play with the rubber too. Most of the time I was not impressed with the so called new features.

I can tell you their rating as bogus. Rubbers/blades do not have control. PERIOD. DON"T ARGUE WITH ME. I WILL MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID.
Also, thicker rubbers will feel softer. However, the Paddle Palace ratings don't reflect that.

I haven't been to the newer location yet in Tigard, OR. They have enough space to have several tables now and tournaments.

 

[Lazer]

You are the one saying that they have control. The rest of us says they are easy or difficult to control. The same thing goes for speed and spin…

 

[brokenball]

You are the one saying that they have control. The rest of us says they are easy or difficult to control. The same thing goes for speed and spin…

No! I say that equipment does not have control.
Yes, some equipment is easy to "control" depending on your point of view. Many years ago, Pathfinderpro made a video where he had very good and not so good players evaluate rubbers. The very good players liked different rubbers than what the not so good players liked.

A few months back I said I would write/start a thread about control. I have thought about it enough that I think I can write something that most TT players will understand now. What you guys haven't figured out is that I am an expert at control and control theory. The problem I have is making it simple for TT players that don't have engineering degrees or degrees at all I have a YouTube channel about control. It is very advanced so many don't understand the math past the first 3 minutes and bail out. I can tell from the google analytics. This is the problem. How to make it simple.

I now know the that the main problem is vocabulary and concepts. I have seen a few people on this forum that have enough gut feeling to think that control is basically the inverse of speed and spin. Their gut feeling is close but not quite right. I think I can clear that up now.

 

[lodro]

You are the one saying that they have control. The rest of us says they are easy or difficult to control. The same thing goes for speed and spin…

No he doesn't. He says : ""I can tell you their rating are bogus. Rubbers/blades do not have control. PERIOD. DON"T ARGUE WITH ME. I WILL MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID.""""

😂
😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

 

[Lazer]

No! I say that equipment does not have control.
Yes, some equipment is easy to "control" depending on your point of view. Many years ago, Pathfinderpro made a video where he had very good and not so good players evaluate rubbers. The very good players liked different rubbers than what the not so good players liked.

A few months back I said I would write/start a thread about control. I have thought about it enough that I think I can write something that most TT players will understand now. What you guys haven't figured out is that I am an expert at control and control theory. The problem I have is making it simple for TT players that don't have engineering degrees or degrees at all I have a YouTube channel about control. It is very advanced so many don't understand the math past the first 3 minutes and bail out. I can tell from the google analytics. This is the problem. How to make it simple.

I now know the that the main problem is vocabulary and concepts. I have seen a few people on this forum that have enough gut feeling to think that control is basically the inverse of speed and spin. Their gut feeling is close but not quite right. I think I can clear that up now.

No he doesn't. He says : ""I can tell you their rating are bogus. Rubbers/blades do not have control. PERIOD. DON"T ARGUE WITH ME. I WILL MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID.""""

😂
😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

He says everybody else is saying this…

My point is that is that it it can not have speed nor spin either, But what it means is the perceived characteristics…
To not recognize this is… we’ll yeah judge for yourself…

 

[brokenball]

My point is that is that it it can not have speed nor spin either, But what it means is the perceived characteristics…
To not recognize this is… we’ll yeah judge for yourself…

Yes, speed and spin are a function of the rubber and the player.
What is needed is the characteristics of the rubber itself.
A better rating would be ....... wait for it ...... can you guess?
Normal and tangential coefficient restitution as stated in the Tieffenbacher pdf I have posted a few times.
The problem is that many or maybe most TT players don't understand coefficient of restitution.
Yep, I sound like a broken record, always repeating, but the goldfish don't mind.

I see that no one wants to look stupid, good.

 

[igorponger]

Chiel Johansson was a payed evaluator for CONTRA Саtalogue. It looks trustworthy for me, excepting the Gewo products whose virtues exaggerated on purpose. Gewo enters as commercial partner with the catalogue owners.

 

[brokenball]

Chiel Johansson was a payed evaluator for CONTRA Саtalogue. It looks trustworthy for me, excepting the Gewo products whose virtues exaggerated on purpose. Gewo enters as commercial partner with the catalogue owners.

People are not calibrated machines. They have opinions that can change from day to day depending on how well they are playing that day.
There is only one way and that it to have a test system. It would be expensive but one it is made it would be easy to test rubbers and get meaningful coefficient of restitution numbers.

Determining the normal coefficient of restitution is relatively easy. Determining the tangential coefficient of restitution is much more difficult.
Determining the tangential COR required precision and high speed cameras. None of this would be cheap

 

[blahness]

Yes, speed and spin are a function of the rubber and the player.
What is needed is the characteristics of the rubber itself.
A better rating would be ....... wait for it ...... can you guess?
Normal and tangential coefficient restitution as stated in the Tieffenbacher pdf I have posted a few times.
The problem is that many or maybe most TT players don't understand coefficient of restitution.
Yep, I sound like a broken record, always repeating, but the goldfish don't mind.

I see that no one wants to look stupid, good.

So higher tangential coefficient of restitution= better spin? Normal coefficient of restitution = bounce speed?

For me there are some rubbers which are easy AF to create and control spin for eg Dignics and Hurricane - none of the other rubbers even come close (unless boosted) and this is why most top players use them.

It's not about bounciness too, because Dignics 05 and 09c have completely different bounciness but both rubbers are really easy to generate huge spin with.

 

[brokenball]

So higher tangential coefficient of restitution= better spin? Normal coefficient of restitution = bounce speed?
Yes!!!

For me there are some rubbers which are easy AF to create and control spin for eg Dignics and Hurricane - none of the other rubbers even come close (unless boosted) and this is why most top players use them.

Rubbers don't have control. The players do. People have control and consistency. Why is it that no one talks about the consistency difference between weak and stronger players?

[quote[
It's not about bounciness too, because Dignics 05 and 09c have completely different bounciness but both rubbers are really easy to generate huge spin with.

I think you have the right gut feel but not the words to express what you really want to say.
I am not saying that a rubber/blade with a high normal COR is good unless you only flat hit line of sight shots.
I haven't proven it to my self yet but my gut feel tells me the best rubbers will have a common/optimal tangential to normal COR ratio.
There is such a thing as too fast and too slow.

The Magnus effect is what causes the ball to drop faster than gravity alone. The Magnus effect is proportional to the speed times the spin. More speed will result in more Magnus effect but it will also cause the ball to go off the end of the table before the ball drops enough. It would be better to reduce the speed and increase the spin. This way the Magnus effect will cause the ball to drop to the table before it goes off the end of the table. This is why the ratio of spin to speed is important.

I wish there was a sticky post section. I feel like I am wasting my time because the info will be lost as soon as it goes off the front page.

 

[blahness]

I think you have the right gut feel but not the words to express what you really want to say.
I am not saying that a rubber/blade with a high normal COR is good unless you only flat hit line of sight shots.
I haven't proven it to my self yet but my gut feel tells me the best rubbers will have a common/optimal tangential to normal COR ratio.
There is such a thing as too fast and too slow.

The Magnus effect is what causes the ball to drop faster than gravity alone. The Magnus effect is proportional to the speed times the spin. More speed will result in more Magnus effect but it will also cause the ball to go off the end of the table before the ball drops enough. It would be better to reduce the speed and increase the spin. This way the Magnus effect will cause the ball to drop to the table before it goes off the end of the table. This is why the ratio of spin to speed is important.

I wish there was a sticky post section. I feel like I am wasting my time because the info will be lost as soon as it goes off the front page.

How do you measure tangential coefficient of restitution though?

 

[brokenball]

How do you measure tangential coefficient of restitution though?

That is a good question. I would do it by dropping a TT ball with out spin onto a moving rubber facing up and moving horizontally at different speeds and recording the video. So let's say the rubber is moving horizontally at 10 m/s but after the impact the ball is moving up but horizontally at 6 m/s. The tangential COR is 0.6. Easy! Except that the ball must fall and hit a moving rubber. Nerds can make that happen. Also if the ball is falling at 5 m/s and it bounce up at 3 m/s the normal COR is 0.6. The problem with dropping a ball straight down is that the ball can't exceed terminal velocity which I think is about 8 m/s. I would need to go back to my calculations. One could use a kids toy TT ball gun to eject the ball down faster but it might have spin which would affect the results. Yes, this can be compensated for but it takes extra calculations by looking at the spin before and the spin after and computing the difference in rotational energy.

I have the motion controllers and the high speed cameras but the TT forums have pissed me off so much, I just let them sit. Again, so much would be lost once my data was not longer on the front page. This is kind of like the Tieffenbacher document. Know one would know about it if I didn't bring it up all the time. USDC has seen my videos and can back up what I say.

The result is that TT forums have memories only a little bit longer than goldfish.

 

[lodro]

That is a good question. I would do it by dropping a TT ball with out spin onto a moving rubber facing up and moving horizontally at different speeds and recording the video. So let's say the rubber is moving horizontally at 10 m/s but after the impact the ball is moving up but horizontally at 6 m/s. The tangential COR is 0.6. Easy! Except that the ball must fall and hit a moving rubber. Nerds can make that happen. Also if the ball is falling at 5 m/s and it bounce up at 3 m/s the normal COR is 0.6. The problem with dropping a ball straight down is that the ball can't exceed terminal velocity which I think is about 8 m/s. I would need to go back to my calculations. One could use a kids toy TT ball gun to eject the ball down faster but it might have spin which would affect the results. Yes, this can be compensated for but it takes extra calculations by looking at the spin before and the spin after and computing the difference in rotational energy.

I have the motion controllers and the high speed cameras but the TT forums have pissed me off so much, I just let them sit. Again, so much would be lost once my data was not longer on the front page. This is kind of like the Tieffenbacher document. Know one would know about it if I didn't bring it up all the time. USDC has seen my videos and can back up what I say.

The result is that TT forums have memories only a little bit longer than goldfish.

I get that. Such a machine would not be difficult to make but what for ???
You know that nobody in the TT industry is interested in accurate facts and numbers
because they would not be able to bullshit us clients anymore with their fantasy descriptions .

 

[VictorMoraga]

I think you have the right gut feel but not the words to express what you really want to say.
I am not saying that a rubber/blade with a high normal COR is good unless you only flat hit line of sight shots.
I haven't proven it to my self yet but my gut feel tells me the best rubbers will have a common/optimal tangential to normal COR ratio.
There is such a thing as too fast and too slow.

The Magnus effect is what causes the ball to drop faster than gravity alone. The Magnus effect is proportional to the speed times the spin. More speed will result in more Magnus effect but it will also cause the ball to go off the end of the table before the ball drops enough. It would be better to reduce the speed and increase the spin. This way the Magnus effect will cause the ball to drop to the table before it goes off the end of the table. This is why the ratio of spin to speed is important.

I wish there was a sticky post section. I feel like I am wasting my time because the info will be lost as soon as it goes off the front page.

I really like this comment about Magnus effect and speed/spin ratio @brokenball
I tested 2 rubbers "Sticky / Hybrid" with the same blade.
The Magnus effect and speed/ratio in the Sticky Rubber "DNA DG" is just right for me, compared to a Hybrid Rubber "Bluestar A1".
We're not calibrated machines. And my testing took a month, because we change everyday.
I like the challenge to learn about yourself: your technique "bio-mechanic", strengths, weaknesses and the best match with the equipment that fits your game style.