I am looking for that 'effortless forehand topspin mechanics' tip

[kindof99]

I only watched a few shots. On your BH vs backspin you take the ball way way earlier than on FH. On FH vs backspin, you are backing off and waiting till the ball is falling, long after the top of the bounce. If you do that, you have to arc the ball so it lands on the table. You can't make it a really fast shot without much arc because your contact point is after the ball has dropped below the net.

But, long before you address that issue, you have to reset after each shot way way way faster. You are not ready for the next shot coming at you and so you are reacting to the incoming balls after they are on your side of the table. You have to be ready for the shot coming to you before your shot bounces on your opponent's side so you can watch what your opponent does with the ball BEFORE he has actually hit the ball. If you only see where the ball is going after it bounces on your side, there is no way you can be anything but late.

The reason you are slow to react to the incoming ball is that you need to reset much faster and be ready to watch what your opponent does with the ball as he is doing it. You stroke is fine. But you will continue to be late and taking shots from out of position as long as you are still watching your shots and not resetting much faster.

Recover is also related to anticipation. Also his feet and body are not slightly tense to help recover and moving, a little too loose for the central body and legs..

 

[maurice101]

I would fix your high stance and lift heels 90% of the time. You cant do modern strokes with a high stance.

 

[turbozed]

The tip from this video has solved a big issue I didn't know I had with balance and weight transfer during the FH. I just found it a couple of weeks ago so I'm still in the process of fixing the issue, but I already feel a lot more powerful and balanced.

This thing is 30 mins long when it should be 5 mins. But speed through it and get the major points.

Basically, I used to have all my weight on my toes of the racket leg and was rotating around it. That shortens the lever arm of rotation to almost zero. A very short whip is not an effective whip.

I should have had my weight center of hips and then rotate around that center of gravity, using my racket leg to push off and begin the rotation.

Another Fang Bo video helped my foot pressure by suggesting to start off with pressure on the outside foot.

After rotating the weight transfers to the opposite leg and you can get more on to the toes of the racket leg. But I was doing it all wrong by starting with weight on my toes. I've heard from a lot of people and even coaches saying to play more on your toes and this wound up being a terrible cue.

 

[SleepyMaster]

The tip from this video has solved a big issue I didn't know I had with balance and weight transfer during the FH. I just found it a couple of weeks ago so I'm still in the process of fixing the issue, but I already feel a lot more powerful and balanced.

This thing is 30 mins long when it should be 5 mins. But speed through it and get the major points.

Basically, I used to have all my weight on my toes of the racket leg and was rotating around it. That shortens the lever arm of rotation to almost zero. A very short whip is not an effective whip.

I should have had my weight center of hips and then rotate around that center of gravity, using my racket leg to push off and begin the rotation.

Another Fang Bo video helped my foot pressure by suggesting to start off with pressure on the outside foot.

After rotating the weight transfers to the opposite leg and you can get more on to the toes of the racket leg. But I was doing it all wrong by starting with weight on my toes. I've heard from a lot of people and even coaches saying to play more on your toes and this wound up being a terrible cue.

I think what coaches means by “weight on the toes” is that player shouldn’t fall back during the strokes rather than just jumping around on the toes always or starting the stroke on the toes.

When you rotating your hips/legs from right to the left and shifting your weight for example during forehand it is much easier to be done on a toes than flat footed. The same principle is using in a lot of sports where you hitting or throwing something - so called “whip motion” effect

 

[turbozed]

I think what coaches means by “weight on the toes” is that player shouldn’t fall back during the strokes rather than just jumping around on the toes always or starting the stroke on the toes.

When you rotating your hips/legs from right to the left and shifting your weight for example during forehand it is much easier to be done on a toes than flat footed. The same principle is using in a lot of sports where you hitting or throwing something - so called “whip motion” effect

I didn't say it was a bad cue all of the time. I just said it was a bad cue for me to use on the FH stroke.

And are you sure that shifting the weight is easier to do on the toes? Because I don't see this when I see the FH technique of pros. Look at Ma Long here for example:

He's flat footed which you are saying is not ideal. In the loading up phase, the weight is shifted towards the outside of his foot and actually more towards his heel than his toes during the setup. When he pushes off from this position, only then does he transfer weight transfer towards the toes right before the contact. But he's not using his toes as a rotation point at any time. The weight transfer is from one side of his body to the other, and the only relevant rotation point is his core.

Here's another extreme example of Ma Long preferring to roll his ankles to achieve weight transfer rather than using his toes as a rotation point:

Which coaches or players advocate rotating on your toes when doing your strokes? Now I'm genuinely confused since that cue was really messing me up. Not that I'd ever revert back to doing that, but I'm curious about the context and what situations where it makes sense to do it.

 

[SleepyMaster]

I didn't say it was a bad cue all of the time. I just said it was a bad cue for me to use on the FH stroke.

And are you sure that shifting the weight is easier to do on the toes? Because I don't see this when I see the FH technique of pros. Look at Ma Long here for example:

He's flat footed which you are saying is not ideal. In the loading up phase, the weight is shifted towards the outside of his foot and actually more towards his heel than his toes during the setup. When he pushes off from this position, only then does he transfer weight transfer towards the toes right before the contact. But he's not using his toes as a rotation point at any time. The weight transfer is from one side of his body to the other, and the only relevant rotation point is his core.

Here's another extreme example of Ma Long preferring to roll his ankles to achieve weight transfer rather than using his toes as a rotation point:

Which coaches or players advocate rotating on your toes when doing your strokes? Now I'm genuinely confused since that cue was really messing me up. Not that I'd ever revert back to doing that, but I'm curious about the context and what situations where it makes sense to do it.

Obviously he is flat footed before the stroke not during the execution - those a different part of the stroke. When he explodes for the forehand he is obviously shifted weight and doing it on his toes.

It is not ideal to execute flat footed strokes - but it is possible you can do it if it helps you. For most people it would be not optimal but pretty possible if it helps you - why not. It can be not so obvious to you - for me the weight shift and that Ma Long is on his toes during exploding from right to left is obvious.

There is no such thing as ideal technique - I did a lot of different sports pretty successfully. People can achieve national and some times even international level with “not perfect” in some aspects technique so if it working you should use it.

This is just my opinion I don’t mind if you think otherwise - there is totally nothing wrong with that.

 

[SleepyMaster]

This is me doing the same thing for example

 

[turbozed]

Obviously he is flat footed before the stroke not during the execution - those a different part of the stroke. When he explodes for the forehand he is obviously shifted weight and doing it on his toes.

It is not ideal to execute flat footed strokes - but it is possible you can do it if it helps you. For most people it would be not optimal but pretty possible if it helps you - why not. It can be not so obvious to you - for me the weight shift and that Ma Long is on his toes during exploding from right to left is obvious.

There is no such thing as ideal technique - I did a lot of different sports pretty successfully. People can achieve national and some times even international level with “not perfect” in some aspects technique so if it working you should use it.

This is just my opinion I don’t mind if you think otherwise - there is totally nothing wrong with that.

I disagree with the idea that the foot being flat is not part of the execution. The wind up and loading phase of the technique is part of the execution. And it's clear that he's got his weight on all of his foot on some if not most of the shots.

I see that he's transferring weight to his toes on some shots. But to transfer weight back to front to the toes assumes that the weight was loaded somwhere else on the foot prior. If you watch his feet you'll see this somewhere else is his outer foot on some shots and sometimes even his heels, where his toes are actually even off the ground (watch the shots where he's moving to the BH corner for the ball).

On the other hand, when moving to the far FH side, he's better off being on his toes and not flat footed because he has to lift his right leg. So in that situation it's probably be better to not be flat footed.

My take away is that different shots in different positions in different situations require foot pressure to start and finish in different places. And the ideal form is the one that gets you to the ball and allows you to rotate around your core while transferring weight into the ball (and ideally as much of it forward for more power).

If the above is true, then advising players to always be on their toes is advising them to force a specific ideal of foot pressure and technique for all situations, and will inevitably mess them up. That was the point I was initially making.

 

[NextLevel]

The tip from this video has solved a big issue I didn't know I had with balance and weight transfer during the FH. I just found it a couple of weeks ago so I'm still in the process of fixing the issue, but I already feel a lot more powerful and balanced.

This thing is 30 mins long when it should be 5 mins. But speed through it and get the major points.

Basically, I used to have all my weight on my toes of the racket leg and was rotating around it. That shortens the lever arm of rotation to almost zero. A very short whip is not an effective whip.

I should have had my weight center of hips and then rotate around that center of gravity, using my racket leg to push off and begin the rotation.

Another Fang Bo video helped my foot pressure by suggesting to start off with pressure on the outside foot.

After rotating the weight transfers to the opposite leg and you can get more on to the toes of the racket leg. But I was doing it all wrong by starting with weight on my toes. I've heard from a lot of people and even coaches saying to play more on your toes and this wound up being a terrible cue.

The advice is usually to play more on the balls of your feet with your heels off the ground but these do not perfectly communicate all the subtleties. On your toes is definitely too extreme if taken as an absolute. And the foot definitely takes a lot of different positions on the floor in reality, the key if you have a healthy lower body is to find something that keeps the feeling of alert springiness to move.

 

[SleepyMaster]

“And it's clear that he's got his weight on all of his foot on some if not most of the shots”

No it’s not - I attached to you a pics from your video, I can do ten more screenshots but I don’t see the reason why I should - because you are not able to seeing those things.

Preparing for the stroke and loading up your right leg for example is one position, execution of the stroke is another one - they are not the same. But again I don’t mind some one has it’s own opinion or doing it in its own way - if it helps you to win more tourneys - good luck you are on the right way

 

[turbozed]

The advice is usually to play more on the balls of your feet with your heels off the ground but these do not perfectly communicate all the subtleties. On your toes is definitely too extreme if taken as an absolute. And the foot definitely takes a lot of different positions on the floor in reality, the key if you have a healthy lower body is to find something that keeps the feeling of alert springiness to move.

Whats the purpose of that advice, exactly? I can understand it in the context of just moving around since you're going to be more mobile being on the balls of your feet. I also know in the context of stepping into the table it's good to press down on your toes on your front foot for a quicker step back.

But in terms of stability and weight transfer when performing a FH, it seems to not make much sense to me. If your body is rotating around its axis, let's say in a counter clockwise direction for a right handed FH player, then wouldn't you want to finish on your toes (like the pictures that @SleepyMaster posted of himself and Ma Long) but have the weight transferred start from the outside or back of the foot?

I don't think I've seen too many high level players starting FH strokes with their heels off the ground, which is the advice that completely did not work for me. Any help here appreciated of course.

 

[NextLevel]

Whats the purpose of that advice, exactly? I can understand it in the context of just moving around since you're going to be more mobile being on the balls of your feet. I also know in the context of stepping into the table it's good to press down on your toes on your front foot for a quicker step back.

But in terms of stability and weight transfer when performing a FH, it seems to not make much sense to me. If your body is rotating around its axis, let's say in a counter clockwise direction for a right handed FH player, then wouldn't you want to finish on your toes (like the pictures that @SleepyMaster posted of himself and Ma Long) but have the weight transferred start from the outside or back of the foot?

I don't think I've seen too many high level players starting FH strokes with their heels off the ground, which is the advice that completely did not work for me. Any help here appreciated of course.

I think many of them start with a part of their foot off the ground. And to be honest, videotape doesn't conceptualize internal feeling. One can literally look like they have their heel on the ground but if you asked the player how he felt, he would say he was largely on the balls of his feet as opposed to having his weight evenly on the foot or resting back on his heels. It is part of the reason why table tennis is ideally played with shoes with flexible soles, one of my friends told me that advanced coaches refused to give him footwork drills in volleyball shoes because they felt it was a waste of time to feel the nuances in soles so thick. You can stand with your weight on the balls of your feet (not necessarily your toes) but still look like you have your heels on the ground. Sometimes, just having a slight forward lean is sufficient to achieve this. The ideal is to keep the spring in your feet while reducing the surface area in contact in the ground to allow for a balance between movement and pushing against the ground for stroke power. And then as you perform the strokes and move, different parts of the feet will remain in contact with the ground and other parts may not.

 

[ttarc]

Somewhat non-standard loop from Fan Zhendong but 240 FPS

Xu Xin looping 240 FPS

One of the best slow motion training videos:

Usage pattern of my Li-Ning shoes (everything green is barely used):

 

[Dr Evil]

Whenever I execute a stroke poorly its mostly because Im out of position, and Im too upright. And sometimes I dont keep my elbow in position during the stroke.

I think you're right about the main issues. (1) Your weight transfer is mostly up rather than forward, and you finish standing straight or even with weight on your heals. Try to finish balanced with your weight forward. (2) Your elbow/arm motion is often leading your hip turn rather than lagging. Driving the shot with your right leg and hip rather than your elbow and arm is the key to the "effortless" power you're looking for.

 

[turbozed]

I think many of them start with a part of their foot off the ground. And to be honest, videotape doesn't conceptualize internal feeling. One can literally look like they have their heel on the ground but if you asked the player how he felt, he would say he was largely on the balls of his feet as opposed to having his weight evenly on the foot or resting back on his heels. It is part of the reason why table tennis is ideally played with shoes with flexible soles, one of my friends told me that advanced coaches refused to give him footwork drills in volleyball shoes because they felt it was a waste of time to feel the nuances in soles so thick. You can stand with your weight on the balls of your feet (not necessarily your toes) but still look like you have your heels on the ground. Sometimes, just having a slight forward lean is sufficient to achieve this. The ideal is to keep the spring in your feet while reducing the surface area in contact in the ground to allow for a balance between movement and pushing against the ground for stroke power. And then as you perform the strokes and move, different parts of the feet will remain in contact with the ground and other parts may not.

Thanks for the answer even though we've now changed the discussion from toes to balls of feet. I can see how going the opposite direction and instructing a person to always be on the balls of their feet would benefit someone who is too flat footed and stationary.

But maybe compensatory cues arent good for everyone who takes things literally and can actually achieve those adjustments through experience from outside sport. I was into powerlifting for over 10 years and have spent years thinking of small things like foot pressure. At least when bearing lots of weight, being on your toes is a terrible idea for balance and dramatically increases the shearing forces on your knees. Do a half squat on your toes right now and see how uncomfortable and unbalanced that feels.

The loading phase of a FH I can't imagine is any different. You are transferring weight to your racket side leg so that you can transfer it in the back again in the opposite direction. This is obvious as often the opposite leg heel is even off the ground. Having the posting leg bear that much weight, and then adding rotational shearing force from twisting at the toes is just too unbalanced and put too much pressure on the knee.

In powerlifting there's a concept called "tripod feet" where the cue is to have pressure on 3 points of the foot for optimal balance. Two points are at the balls of the foot, one at the base of the big toe, the other at the pinky side base. The third point is at the heel. This results in having firm foot pressure centered directly mid foot and is strongest for pushing off in squatting and deadlift.

Im guessing telling people to press down more with the balls of their feet will help people have stability and power from their posting leg if they are only on their heels all the time. This is still a far cry from instructing people to rotate on their toes while also bearing the weight of the body.

Anyone now can try it. Get into a low FH position with both feet heels off the ground. Now start doing some full rotation swings while using your foot as the rotation point. You will start feeling discomfort in your knee almost immediately. Maybe this isn't what you were referring to with your comment about being on the balls of the feet. But this exact rotating on the toes suggestion was made earlier in the thread and was the original subject of the discussion, so I'd like you to comment on this specific thing and say if you believe this is advisable form.

 

[mihalichtheone]

The tip from this video has solved a big issue I didn't know I had with balance and weight transfer during the FH. I just found it a couple of weeks ago so I'm still in the process of fixing the issue, but I already feel a lot more powerful and balanced.

This thing is 30 mins long when it should be 5 mins. But speed through it and get the major points.

Basically, I used to have all my weight on my toes of the racket leg and was rotating around it. That shortens the lever arm of rotation to almost zero. A very short whip is not an effective whip.

I should have had my weight center of hips and then rotate around that center of gravity, using my racket leg to push off and begin the rotation.

Another Fang Bo video helped my foot pressure by suggesting to start off with pressure on the outside foot.

After rotating the weight transfers to the opposite leg and you can get more on to the toes of the racket leg. But I was doing it all wrong by starting with weight on my toes. I've heard from a lot of people and even coaches saying to play more on your toes and this wound up being a terrible cue.

Awesome video, thank you for sharing. I realised exactly his point by just experimenting.
Looks like a good explanation (Japanese -> Russian translated by AI...but still quite understandable).

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks for the answer even though we've now changed the discussion from toes to balls of feet. I can see how going the opposite direction and instructing a person to always be on the balls of their feet would benefit someone who is too flat footed and stationary.

But maybe compensatory cues arent good for everyone who takes things literally and can actually achieve those adjustments through experience from outside sport. I was into powerlifting for over 10 years and have spent years thinking of small things like foot pressure. At least when bearing lots of weight, being on your toes is a terrible idea for balance and dramatically increases the shearing forces on your knees. Do a half squat on your toes right now and see how uncomfortable and unbalanced that feels.

The loading phase of a FH I can't imagine is any different. You are transferring weight to your racket side leg so that you can transfer it in the back again in the opposite direction. This is obvious as often the opposite leg heel is even off the ground. Having the posting leg bear that much weight, and then adding rotational shearing force from twisting at the toes is just too unbalanced and put too much pressure on the knee.

In powerlifting there's a concept called "tripod feet" where the cue is to have pressure on 3 points of the foot for optimal balance. Two points are at the balls of the foot, one at the base of the big toe, the other at the pinky side base. The third point is at the heel. This results in having firm foot pressure centered directly mid foot and is strongest for pushing off in squatting and deadlift.

Im guessing telling people to press down more with the balls of their feet will help people have stability and power from their posting leg if they are only on their heels all the time. This is still a far cry from instructing people to rotate on their toes while also bearing the weight of the body.

Anyone now can try it. Get into a low FH position with both feet heels off the ground. Now start doing some full rotation swings while using your foot as the rotation point. You will start feeling discomfort in your knee almost immediately. Maybe this isn't what you were referring to with your comment about being on the balls of the feet. But this exact rotating on the toes suggestion was made earlier in the thread and was the original subject of the discussion, so I'd like you to comment on this specific thing and say if you believe this is advisable form.

I don't think being on your toes is a a good thing but I have tried it and have knee pain but since I had knee pain before TT, I can't be sure what TT does. But being on your heels is equally bad for playing powerful TT strokes, most people leave the ground at some point I'd they are advanced players playing with power.

Give me some time to watch the new video. Maybe I will have something different to say after.

 

[NetProphet]

Hi there,

I am looking for that one special tip that will make my forehand topspin easier. And with easier I mean: more power with less effort.

I once got a great tip like this for my backhand topspin: "You should do the backhand topspin like you are throwing a frisbee". My backhand has really taken off since then. Before this tip I wasn't able to backhand loop underspin to save my life, and now it probably wins me the most points. My backhand has become so spinny and fast while simontaniously it feels effortless to put on the table.

I feel like I know the all the details about the forehand topspin quite well;
-Transfer your weight,
-rotate your hips,
-retract your free hand,
-have a relaxed swing,
-accelerate explosively and squeeze the racket right before contact,
-stop your shoulder,
-relax again and retract for the next ball,

I really try to apply these when playing, but for some reason whenever that ball comes thowards my forehand side, I only swing my arm at the ball without rotating my body... Its hard for me to have alot of dedicated forehand practice. We dont have any coaches for senior players and all my training is basicly practice matches. So the warmup before the first match is the only time I can dedicate thowards improving my forehand topspin against block.

So any tips to help me make the forehand feel less complicated and more powerful with less effort are welcome!

This thread is brilliant.
Thanks to you for creating it, so much great info in one place I'm looking fwd to reading it again and putting all of it to use after I watch th videos.
How are you getting in with your forehead now?
Have you made the progress you wanted this year?
Cheers

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Hi there,

I am looking for that one special tip that will make my forehand topspin easier. And with easier I mean: more power with less effort.

I once got a great tip like this for my backhand topspin: "You should do the backhand topspin like you are throwing a frisbee". My backhand has really taken off since then. Before this tip I wasn't able to backhand loop underspin to save my life, and now it probably wins me the most points. My backhand has become so spinny and fast while simontaniously it feels effortless to put on the table.

I feel like I know the all the details about the forehand topspin quite well;
-Transfer your weight,
-rotate your hips,
-retract your free hand,
-have a relaxed swing,
-accelerate explosively and squeeze the racket right before contact,
-stop your shoulder,
-relax again and retract for the next ball,

I really try to apply these when playing, but for some reason whenever that ball comes thowards my forehand side, I only swing my arm at the ball without rotating my body... Its hard for me to have alot of dedicated forehand practice. We dont have any coaches for senior players and all my training is basicly practice matches. So the warmup before the first match is the only time I can dedicate thowards improving my forehand topspin against block.

So any tips to help me make the forehand feel less complicated and more powerful with less effort are welcome!

With regards to the comment, " like throwing a frisbee ", you are welcome. Paypal not required. We're buddies.

With regards to Forehand, this is what I did. I used a resistance band to tie my elbow to my body so that I cannot cheat and wave my arm all over. By restricting that elbow, I am forced to topspin the ball over to the other side using the body rotation and footwork. This is of course not the actual stroke used in game play, but is a useful exercise to inculcate muscle memory into your neural circuit to use body rotation and footwork.

Try it!

 

[Amayzde]

This thread is brilliant.
Thanks to you for creating it, so much great info in one place I'm looking fwd to reading it again and putting all of it to use after I watch th videos.
How are you getting in with your forehead now?
Have you made the progress you wanted this year?
Cheers

Haha no problem, this was a good one for me as well.

Here is a short compilation of what my forehand looks like today:

I'd say I am very happy with the progress I made so far. Whenever I get my forehand in, its my point 99% of the time.

What did I change compared to the start of the year? Honestly not that much technique wise:

1. More active playing position: which got better, but looking at myself play I think it can still make alot of improvement on this.
2. Movement : getting into the habbit of getting into the right position before hitting the ball.
3. Aniticipation: looking more at the opponent before he hits the ball to determine the direction of the incoming ball sooner, which make it easier to get into the right position earlier.
4. Focussing more on spin rather then speed: playing the first attack with spin rather then speed on the first ball is so much more effective in matches.
5. Placement: You can see most of my first spins here are going to the forehand side of my opponent. Most people find it awkward to block with the forehand. So many people get into the habit of attacking straight into the backhand of the opponent, while this is usually their better side for blocking.

Things Im currently focussing on:
1. Still getting a lower stance.
2. Better transition from forehand to backhand.
3. Getting better at picking up half long pushes and serves with my backhand.