Improvement vs temporary feeling?

[TensorBackhand]

Recently I have been doing a drill with partner where he does a medium or long serve to me and I just loop it.

I find that I usually am bad at this for the first 20 shots or so, and then gradually find the feeling and can execute it well.

But then the next day, im back to being bad again.

Am i improving or just finding a temporary rhythm? How do i make my improvements permanent? Am i practicing the right way?

 

[Tyce]

It's said a habit takes about 3 months to get ingrained... If by recently you mean a week or so, be patient and revisit this topic in a few months.

 

[Der_Echte]

Totally valid question. Also involves physics and sports phycology.

Time and data will tell a story, as well as a seasoned player evaluating enough data.

Improvements can be considered permanent as learning doesn't really fade, but there are physical and mental factors in play that affect things match to match and season to season.

 

[PaddyPolar]

Recently I have been doing a drill with partner where he does a medium or long serve to me and I just loop it.

I find that I usually am bad at this for the first 20 shots or so, and then gradually find the feeling and can execute it well.

But then the next day, im back to being bad again.

Am i improving or just finding a temporary rhythm? How do i make my improvements permanent? Am i practicing the right way?

I struggle with a long topspin serve, especially if its to the backhand curling outwards(left for me). I don't know why, if its backspin i can loop it really well for a winner, but when its topspin i go all passive.

The best way i improve this though is just serve and return with my coach. After around 10 i get the hang of it, then we play a match and i lose it all again. I think you just gotta be patient and train it regularly.

 

[NetProphet]

Recently I have been doing a drill with partner where he does a medium or long serve to me and I just loop it.

I find that I usually am bad at this for the first 20 shots or so, and then gradually find the feeling and can execute it well.

But then the next day, im back to being bad again.

Am i improving or just finding a temporary rhythm? How do i make my improvements permanent? Am i practicing the right way?

It sounds like the difference between just practicing and focused training.
For it to stick you could try to more consciously evaluate what you are changing or doing differently from the first to the 20th attempt. If you can pinpoint these things a little then they will engrain better and you have a better chance to remember and then start at that point the next day.
Not doing this let's us just playfully adapt without really recognising what we do differently from shot 1 to 20. Then you are back to square 1 the next day.

 

[blahness]

Typically, most significant long term improvements I made are structural in nature, and I know precisely what I have changed. A lot of training (esp if not targeted) I would say is just training the feeling in the hand, and cannot be totally relied on for long term improvements.

Dont rely on feeling when you can rely on technique (as per Fang Bo's videos).

 

[SleepyMaster]

Technique is the basic understating and ability to execute correct shots/making judgment and adjustment accordingly to the ball that you got - that helps you overall and give you solid foundations for years - feeling is a good thing too but is not as important because can fluctuate through you table tennis journey (and slowly increasing over the years or decreasing when you missed some of training schedule) but it’s like extra thing that very good to have.

With solid and diverse technique in your game plus basics you can progress faster that with pure feeling.

Every club has a guys that didnt like to do the structural training - just pure playing matches with anyone. And in my observation such players (besides rare occasions) even they have that “feeling” but most of the time they achieved some level staying there forever - because technically they can’t go further.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

need video to comment, like 40 shots of them
20 bad and 20 good

 

[TensorBackhand]

I wonder if @UpSideDownCarl has any thoughts on this? I'm sure I'm not the only person with this experience. I know you are a big proponent of looping the earliest you can.

So when I do this drill of looping a serve, how do I know if I am actually improving long term or just finding a temporary "zone"? Right now I'm not too focused on power, but just spin and consistency.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Also curious, what other drills would be the highest "return on invested time" ROIT drills to do?

What comes to mind:
1 - loop the return drill
2 - loop the 3rd ball after serve

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I wonder if @UpSideDownCarl has any thoughts on this? I'm sure I'm not the only person with this experience. I know you are a big proponent of looping the earliest you can.

So when I do this drill of looping a serve, how do I know if I am actually improving long term or just finding a temporary "zone"? Right now I'm not too focused on power, but just spin and consistency.

It would be worth seeing you doing the drill. In general, the way practiced/trained skills become assimilated and fully "learned"....fully assimilated (so that you start out good on your first one (if you are warmed up) is, to do it sooooo many times that you are not thinking about it any more.

What should happen is the period of ones at the beginning that are awkward should shorten and should not be as bad over time. Then, at a certain point, that just goes away. And as that is occurring, the quality of the loops you are making should also improve. So that, a few months from now, when you are looping vs a serve, that shot should become a higher quality shot.

But, from the description of the drill, it is also hard to say how randomized what you are doing is. To fully incorporate it into game skills, it will need to END UP being fully randomized. But you might start with the first several sets not randomized at all.

So:

- the same topspin serve to the same place: you loop (10 or 15 to FH side, 10-15 to BH side)
- the same backspin serve to the same place: you loop (10-15 FH side, 10-15 BH side)
- topspin serve, similar amount of spin on each but random placement some to BH, some Middle, some FH: you loop 30-40
- backspin serve, similar amount of spin on each but random placement as above: you loop 30-40
- after that, working on fully random placement, spin, etc: you loop. Alternate player looping after 50 landed (could alternate after 10), and continue till each player has landed 500 of the fully randomized version.

====

I also like this drill:

1) Player 1: Serve short backspin
2) Player 2: pushes half long or short (anywhere)
3) Player 1: loops no matter what
4) Open rally.

You can start that drill more structured before the push is anywhere too so that by the time you are looping vs random placement, you have done several FH and BH attacks vs the training partner's pushes.

In the end, when you have fully learned the skill, you won't have to think about it anymore. But it is normal for you to start out going back to old habits and only slowly ease into comfort with a new skill that is against how you have trained and played for as long as you have. So, don't worry about that and know that it is normal....a normal part of learning a new skill. The more you train the skill, the sooner you will gain confidence in your performing those shots.

Also, it is worth knowing, I feel like, for a solid player, it is worth having that skill of attacking anything that comes to you. But game tactics determine that an intelligent player will use that when it is useful, when it will work, when it is good strategy. So, you may not use it all the time. But having the skill in your toolkit means you can use it when you want.

But in an intense rally, being able to switch up timing, shot selection, spin, pace, placement....those things will make your opponent feel awkward. So, there are many things you should be able to do that you only pull out when they make sense. If you can put a no-spin float ball into a counterlooping rally, there are plenty of players who will have trouble with adjusting to that.

Technique is so you have it in your toolkit. Tactics are about choosing tools that will be useful in the current game scenario. The reason I have stressed attacking earlier for you is: in many matches I watched that you posted, you were better than the opponent; you were winning at 4 and 5; you were only pushing and playing cautious and letting the opponent open the attack and mess up or, if they were successful, you blocked them down until you got a shot you could T-Off on. So, you were playing passive and letting weaker players lose instead of taking the initiative and controlling the rallies from the outset. Based on that, for you, at the time I watched those videos, I felt, if you used training matches with weaker players to work on that skill of opening as early as possible instead of letting those weaker players beat themselves, you would at least be making the matches a learning experience for you. And against a higher level offensive player, you may not be able to play passively like that.

But, it is very possible, you are now doing a lot more of those things when you play higher level players. Still, if looping on opponent's serve, or on opponent's return of your serve are still not fully comfortable, then the reason to train it is so that it is comfortable enough for you to do it whenever you choose to. So you are in control of the rallies and when they turn to offense rather than always being passive.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Totally valid question. Also involves physics and sports phycology.

Time and data will tell a story, as well as a seasoned player evaluating enough data.

Improvements can be considered permanent as learning doesn't really fade, but there are physical and mental factors in play that affect things match to match and season to season.

That is the short way of saying it. Well said. All new skills acquired in TT, start that way where you feel you have it and next time you feel you lost it, then you have it again, then you lost it.....

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If you have not seen this video, it might be worth watching several times to see if you can sort out exactly what the information means and ways of applying the information to training for TT skill retention:

 

[TensorBackhand]

It would be worth seeing you doing the drill. In general, the way practiced/trained skills become assimilated and fully "learned"....fully assimilated (so that you start out good on your first one (if you are warmed up) is, to do it sooooo many times that you are not thinking about it any more.

What should happen is the period of ones at the beginning that are awkward should shorten and should not be as bad over time. Then, at a certain point, that just goes away. And as that is occurring, the quality of the loops you are making should also improve. So that, a few months from now, when you are looping vs a serve, that shot should become a higher quality shot.

But, from the description of the drill, it is also hard to say how randomized what you are doing is. To fully incorporate it into game skills, it will need to END UP being fully randomized. But you might start with the first several sets not randomized at all.

So:

- the same topspin serve to the same place: you loop (10 or 15 to FH side, 10-15 to BH side)
- the same backspin serve to the same place: you loop (10-15 FH side, 10-15 BH side)
- topspin serve, similar amount of spin on each but random placement some to BH, some Middle, some FH: you loop 30-40
- backspin serve, similar amount of spin on each but random placement as above: you loop 30-40
- after that, working on fully random placement, spin, etc: you loop. Alternate player looping after 50 landed (could alternate after 10), and continue till each player has landed 500 of the fully randomized version.

====

I also like this drill:

1) Player 1: Serve short backspin
2) Player 2: pushes half long or short (anywhere)
3) Player 1: loops no matter what
4) Open rally.

You can start that drill more structured before the push is anywhere too so that by the time you are looping vs random placement, you have done several FH and BH attacks vs the training partner's pushes.

In the end, when you have fully learned the skill, you won't have to think about it anymore. But it is normal for you to start out going back to old habits and only slowly ease into comfort with a new skill that is against how you have trained and played for as long as you have. So, don't worry about that and know that it is normal....a normal part of learning a new skill. The more you train the skill, the sooner you will gain confidence in your performing those shots.

Also, it is worth knowing, I feel like, for a solid player, it is worth having that skill of attacking anything that comes to you. But game tactics determine that an intelligent player will use that when it is useful, when it will work, when it is good strategy. So, you may not use it all the time. But having the skill in your toolkit means you can use it when you want.

But in an intense rally, being able to switch up timing, shot selection, spin, pace, placement....those things will make your opponent feel awkward. So, there are many things you should be able to do that you only pull out when they make sense. If you can put a no-spin float ball into a counterlooping rally, there are plenty of players who will have trouble with adjusting to that.

Technique is so you have it in your toolkit. Tactics are about choosing tools that will be useful in the current game scenario. The reason I have stressed attacking earlier for you is: in many matches I watched that you posted, you were better than the opponent; you were winning at 4 and 5; you were only pushing and playing cautious and letting the opponent open the attack and mess up or, if they were successful, you blocked them down until you got a shot you could T-Off on. So, you were playing passive and letting weaker players lose instead of taking the initiative and controlling the rallies from the outset. Based on that, for you, at the time I watched those videos, I felt, if you used training matches with weaker players to work on that skill of opening as early as possible instead of letting those weaker players beat themselves, you would at least be making the matches a learning experience for you. And against a higher level offensive player, you may not be able to play passively like that.

But, it is very possible, you are now doing a lot more of those things when you play higher level players. Still, if looping on opponent's serve, or on opponent's return of your serve are still not fully comfortable, then the reason to train it is so that it is comfortable enough for you to do it whenever you choose to. So you are in control of the rallies and when they turn to offense rather than always being passive.

Sometimes, when I play a match against a strong opponent, I am mostly pushing the receive and I feel I have a 50/50 chance of winning the match. I feel we are playing evenly based on current tactics.

I see him using a underspin serve to my bh, but I'm afraid to loop it because I don't know how my first attempt will go. I kinda imagine myself missing it wildly and then panicking. Do I go back to pushing and just accept the 50/50 odds? Or do I just keep attempting the loop and throwing away points hoping to tilt the odds in my favor?

Sometimes I play a lower level player and I feel I am winning easily with the push. But then I try to throw in some loops to mix up my play, and boom I whiff 3 bh loops in a row and I lost the game. The hardest part for me is to callibrate my bh on the receive. Once I get it callibrated, then I feel it works quite well.

I think looping on receive is the hardest shot to callibrate. For one, I'm always afraid of hitting the table. I'm never sure how long or high the ball will bounce. There's a lot more variation in spin than for looping a regular push.

 

[TensorBackhand]

If you have not seen this video, it might be worth watching several times to see if you can sort out exactly what the information means and ways of applying the information to training for TT skill retention:

Yes, That's why I said that when it comes down to it, many times just doing straight sparring matches can be the best practice. It's random.

But I guess drills are needed when you need to build confidence in a specific technique. For me, I think my early looping is still a kind of weakness.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Sometimes I play a lower level player and I feel I am winning easily with the push. But then I try to throw in some loops to mix up my play, and boom I whiff 3 bh loops in a row and I lost the game.

If you know you are working on a skill, why should it matter to you if you win? Work on the skill in the practice matches. When the match matters, then you can do anything you want to win. And if you do that enough in those matches where you could win if you want, but you have decided to work on something and not worry if you mess up but to work on it, then, those skills will come a lot faster.

Yes, That's why I said that when it comes down to it, many times just doing straight sparring matches can be the best practice. It's random.

But I guess drills are needed when you need to build confidence in a specific technique. For me, I think my early looping is still a kind of weakness.

The question here is, are you using the practice matches to work on things that will help you improve, or are you falling back on old habits? If you are just doing the same stuff you always do in the practice matches, they might not cause you to learn anything new. If you look at them as an opportunity to work on stuff they would be a great training opportunity.

But if you know how to do training drills that are randomized, you can overcome some of the mental issues you are having with trying to work those into match scenarios where, in your head, you do think it matters if you win. In the randomized training scenario, the only way to lose is to not try the shot you are working on. And what happens when you do the randomized training in order to gain skills like the ones you say mess with your head during match play--"I kinda imagine myself missing it wildly and then panicking"-- is that the stress around whether you will mess up or not just falls away over time. And then, you find yourself doing it in a match because it is the right thing to do and not thinking about it....and it starts going well as a result.

So, if you were using match play the way you think you are, you would be right. But you are using match play to do what you already do well instead. A certain amount of that would be fine. But you already have those skills pretty solidly so, until you are playing vs someone a several levels higher than you, you won't need to improve those skills. And the randomized drills could get it so you do the other stuff well and then, those people you are thinking of as high level and that you could win 50/50 by letting them open and being passive and waiting for your opportunities, you will be beating those players handily. And in TT, there is always another level up unless you are one of the top CNT players. So, lots of room to grow if you want to.

Learning to loop those balls vs serve and 3rd ball that you have trouble with won't make it so you can't use the short game to your advantage. It just will mean that your opponents will have to be ready for more from you if you could either open or drop the ball short in any short game scenario.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you know you are working on a skill, why should it matter to you if you win? Work on the skill in the practice matches. When the match matters, then you can do anything you want to win. And if you do that enough in those matches where you could win if you want, but you have decided to work on something and not worry if you mess up but to work on it, then, those skills will come a lot faster.



The question here is, are you using the practice matches to work on things that will help you improve, or are you falling back on old habits? If you are just doing the same stuff you always do in the practice matches, they might not cause you to learn anything new. If you look at them as an opportunity to work on stuff they would be a great training opportunity.

But if you know how to do training drills that are randomized, you can overcome some of the mental issues you are having with trying to work those into match scenarios where, in your head, you do think it matters if you win. In the randomized training scenario, the only way to lose is to not try the shot you are working on. And what happens when you do the randomized training in order to gain skills like the ones you say mess with your head during match play--" I kinda imagine myself missing it wildly and then panicking"-- is that the stress around whether you will mess up or not just falls away over time. And then, you find yourself doing it in a match because it is the right thing to do and not thinking about it....and it starts going well as a result.

So, if you were using match play the way you think you are, you would be right. But you are using match play to do what you already do well instead. The randomized drills could get it so you do the other stuff well and then, those people you are thinking of as high level and that you could win 50/50 by letting them open and being passive and waiting for your opportunities, you will be beating those players handily. And in TT, there is always another level up unless you are one of the top CNT players. So, lots of room to grow if you want to.

Learning to loop those balls vs serve and 3rd ball that you have trouble with won't make it so you can't use the short game to your advantage. It just will mean that your opponents will have to be ready for more from you if you could either open or drop the ball short in any short game scenario.

So very true. I see many players just play matches all day long and never improve, because their objective every match is to win and not to improve something. I only do that against higher level players I'd never or almost never beat. In that case what I'm practicing is putting everything together including tactics to see what I'm capable of. Against lower level players, including those at similar levels as me, my objective is to practice things.

For that, there's a caveat. I only try to practice things in matches that I can do in regular practice. I'm a big believer in practicing. If practice doesn't translate to games, then there's something missing in your practice. The objective thus is to find out what's missing, if something is missing, and then modify my practice to work on that.

To me, sparring matches are a rather inefficient way to improve. So many shots are things that you perhaps don't need practice the most, so it's very hard to get the reps you need to address a weakness. I try to keep match day to once a week, and use the rest of my playing time practicing.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So very true. I see many players just play matches all day long and never improve, because their objective every match is to win and not to improve something. I only do that against higher level players I'd never or almost never beat. In that case what I'm practicing is putting everything together including tactics to see what I'm capable of. Against lower level players, including those at similar levels as me, my objective is to practice things.

For that, there's a caveat. I only try to practice things in matches that I can do in regular practice. I'm a big believer in practicing. If practice doesn't translate to games, then there's something missing in your practice. The objective thus is to find out what's missing, if something is missing, and then modify my practice to work on that.

To me, sparring matches are a rather inefficient way to improve. So many shots are things that you perhaps don't need practice the most, so it's very hard to get the reps you need to address a weakness. I try to keep match day to once a week, and use the rest of my playing time practicing.

Yep. There are lots of ways to train skills. And good training should start with basics and move towards full randomization for that skill. But you start with the skill.

That is why, when I told MZ (TensorBH) to watch that video several times and see if he can sort out ways to translate the information into ways to train for TT. That is also why I pointed out that the practice match play would be good training if he was working on things.

But your central point is a good one. Just playing matches, even if you are working on skills you need to develop, that would not replace the kind of training you need to do to develop things that you need to work on.

On that friendly note: Randon....but not match play:

You have to get to a level to do this kind of stuff. But, clearly you can work on randomized drills that lead to improved skills and faster reaction times in matches without it being a match scenario at all. And there are lots of different versions of randomized multiball in that video.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Yep. There are lots of ways to train skills. And good training should start with basics and move towards full randomization for that skill. But you start with the skill.

That is why, when I told MZ (TensorBH) to watch that video several times and see if he can sort out ways to translate the information into ways to train for TT. That is also why I pointed out that the practice match play would be good training if he was working on things.

But your central point is a good one. Just playing matches, even if you are working on skills you need to develop, that would not replace the kind of training you need to do to develop things that you need to work on.

On that friendly note: Randon....but not match play:

You have to get to a level to do this kind of stuff. But, clearly you can work on randomized drills that lead to improved skills and faster reaction times in matches without it being a match scenario at all. And there are lots of different versions of randomized multiball in that video.

The drill I have in mind is to ask my partner to do long underspin serves to me with 20% going to my elbow where I should step around and loop with FH, and 80% going to my BH where I should loop with BH.

I think this works on 2 of my biggest weaknesses, but also adds in a bit of randomness.

 

[TensorBackhand]

So I was practicing bh looping the medium long serve and I was doing fairly well, but I committed the error that I always dread: I hit my paddle on the table and cut my rubber.

I have nightmares of doing this. And in 3 years of practicing, this is probably only the 2nd time that i have cut a rubber like this.

How can you avoid breaking rubbers like this