Is my strength also my biggest weakness?

[UpSideDownCarl]

I looked at a little of the footage. You look like you are playing quite well. You are doing a lot of things solidly.

One thing I would say, the footage I watched, the guy you are playing with, I am not sure he gives you much of a challenge. Does he ever win best of 5 or best of 7 matches against you? I did not watch everything but I watched enough to see that it does not seem you are having much trouble handling anything he can throw at you, even his best shots.

I guess you have to practice with whoever you can. But, I think, for seeing what you need to work on, you want to find someone much better than him to play some training matches with.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I looked at a little of the footage. You look like you are playing quite well. You are doing a lot of things solidly.

One thing I would say, the footage I watched, the guy you are playing with, I am not sure he gives you much of a challenge. Does he ever win best of 5 or best of 7 matches against you? I did not watch everything but I watched enough to see that it does not seem you are having much trouble handling anything he can throw at you, even his best shots.

I guess you have to practice with whoever you can. But, I think, for seeing what you need to work on, you want to find someone much better than him to play some training matches with.

Right, I know what you mean. I don't think he typically wins best of 5 against me. Of the group of guys who I typically play with, this guy probably offers the most danger when he hits his loops. There are 2 other guys around 1800 who I often play with, they are not quite as dangerous.

One guy I sometimes play with is 2000 and plays a very different style, very fast and flat style. He gives me a lot of trouble. I talked about him in my "looping every serve" thread. I don't play him too often, but I can try to play him next time and record video.

But I guess the main point I'm trying to analyze, is that even when I play this guy, my style is this type of counterpunching style. It's more patient, slower, emphasizing efficiency. I feel this is what I do well. But maybe I need to re-tool my game to play faster off the 2nd ball and 3rd ball.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Oh, something else to note: in the two clips labeled 3rd ball, if you look at the trajectory of the ball, They both are probably going long but you take them over the table with a very shortened stroke. On the second ball you respond to it like it is long because the serve is long and you take a moderately fuller stroke. On the one labeled 5th ball, the ball is clearly long and you take a completely full stroke.

On at least the FH shot that is labeled 3rd ball, you could take a completely full stroke, even if you contact the ball with the same timing by planing your stroke so that it comes from under the table and passes a few inches over the edge of the table.

The BH shot labeled 3rd ball, it is fine to take that over the table, but I bet you could take a stroke that has much more acceleration and racket speed than the stroke you did take.

So, to me, that looks like working on 3rd ball attack would likely to be a good idea. On both of those third ball clips, you already have the skill to make much more lethal shots against either serve.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Right, I know what you mean. I don't think he typically wins best of 5 against me. Of the group of guys who I typically play with, this guy probably offers the most danger when he hits his loops. There are 2 other guys around 1800 who I often play with, they are not quite as dangerous.

One guy I sometimes play with is 2000 and plays a very different style, very fast and flat style. He gives me a lot of trouble. I talked about him in my "looping every serve" thread. I don't play him too often, but I can try to play him next time and record video.

But I guess the main point I'm trying to analyze, is that even when I play this guy, my style is this type of counterpunching style. It's more patient, slower, emphasizing efficiency. I feel this is what I do well. But maybe I need to re-tool my game to play faster off the 2nd ball and 3rd ball.

I think you need to play some higher level players. Start training with a few guys 2000-2150....in that range.

I am not so sure it is just that you play more patient....you can do it because he does not have weapons that can hurt you. You can get almost everything he throws at you back fairly comfortable and choose you spots to counterloop and overpower him. I am sure, for him, playing you feels like playing a wall. Everything comes back.

If you step up to those higher level players, you may find how you play still works for you. But you will likely feel more pressure to make higher quality shots even if you continue playing the same style. And a higher level player may end up pressuring you to attack well and sooner if they keep ending the points before you can get into them.

Said differently, I think you have gone past those 1800-1950 players and may be close to making a jump to being able to play competitively with players 1-3 levels higher than the guys you are training with currently.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I think you need to play some higher level players. Start training with a few guys 2000-2150....in that range.

I am not so sure it is just that you play more patient....you can do it because he does not have weapons that can hurt you. You can get almost everything he throws at you back fairly comfortable and choose you spots to counterloop and overpower him. I am sure, for him, playing you feels like playing a wall. Everything comes back.

If you step up to those higher level players, you may find how you play still works for you. But you will likely feel more pressure to make higher quality shots even if you continue playing the same style. And a higher level player may end up pressuring you to attack well and sooner if they keep ending the points before you can get into them.

Said differently, I think you have gone past those 1800-1950 players and may be close to making a jump to being able to play competitively with players 1-3 levels higher than the guys you are training with currently.

✂️ Counterloop

14 seconds · Clipped by m k · Original video "3" by m k

youtube.com

This is epitome of most of what our games look like. As you said, me being patient, and then picking the spot to counterloop.

✂️ counterloop

5 seconds · Clipped by m k · Original video "3" by m k

youtube.com

✂️ counter

8 seconds · Clipped by m k · Original video "4" by m k

youtube.com

 

[blahness]

OP plays a solid game, but everything in his game (from serve/receive to rallying) is focused on safety with not a lot of sting or variation in them. There is no killer instinct in his game.

Some of the 3rd balls should have been killed without mercy as theyre just asking for it - high and not placed well either, but they were just spun up like a normal loop. The problem with safety focused play is that you can only win if the opponent gives you a ton of unforced errors, which is not gonna happen at higher levels. And they have a lot of weapons which will result in your beloved shot safety being lost.

This mindset extends to serve/receive too. OP's serve is basically a basic underspin/no spin serve and almost always slow diagonal long to the BH. For receives its basically just a push or a slow BH sidespin opening loop to start the rally. A lot of long underspin balls get re-pushed.

It's quite hard to improve if you're afraid of trying new shots and are always concerned about error rates. You need to take all those risks especially in training to learn and expand your repertoire.

For eg instead of a normal underspin serve why not learn the hook serve and incorporate it for a few sessions? Or for e.g. a FH sidespin pendulum which has a lot of curve. Trying out various serve placements for all of these, mixing and matching them up.

For receives instead of just pushing how about some wide sidespin pushes or sideswipes, flicks, etc...? What about early timing wide angled short pushes?

If you're beating the guy 11-8 frequently, you should aim to beat him even harder like 11-6 or below. If there's no aim, you're just going through the motions, and there's not gonna be any improvement.

 

[TensorBackhand]

OP plays a solid game, but everything in his game (from serve/receive to rallying) is focused on safety with not a lot of sting or variation in them. There is no killer instinct in his game.

Some of the 3rd balls should have been killed without mercy as theyre just asking for it - high and not placed well either, but they were just spun up like a normal loop. The problem with safety focused play is that you can only win if the opponent gives you a ton of unforced errors, which is not gonna happen at higher levels. And they have a lot of weapons which will result in your beloved shot safety being lost.

This mindset extends to serve/receive too. OP's serve is basically a basic underspin/no spin serve and almost always slow diagonal long to the BH. For receives its basically just a push or a slow BH sidespin opening loop to start the rally. A lot of long underspin balls get re-pushed.

It's quite hard to improve if you're afraid of trying new shots and are always concerned about error rates. You need to take all those risks especially in training to learn and expand your repertoire.

For eg instead of a normal underspin serve why not learn the hook serve and incorporate it for a few sessions? Or for e.g. a FH sidespin pendulum which has a lot of curve. Trying out various serve placements for all of these, mixing and matching them up.

For receives instead of just pushing how about some wide sidespin pushes or sideswipes, flicks, etc...? What about early timing wide angled short pushes?

If you're beating the guy 11-8 frequently, you should aim to beat him even harder like 11-6 or below. If there's no aim, you're just going through the motions, and there's not gonna be any improvement.

Well yes, the very topic of this thread was that I was asking if my "strength" is actually holding me back. I already recognized that my style is a slower, patient, efficient, safe style. 2nd and 3rd ball attacks don't always feel good for me.

If I were to attempt more 2nd and 3rd ball attacks, I'm pretty sure my win% would drop for a season. But is taking a dive needed to get over the hurdle in the long run?

 

[H3R0]

Well yes, the very topic of this thread was that I was asking if my "strength" is actually holding me back. I already recognized that my style is a slower, patient, efficient, safe style. 2nd and 3rd ball attacks don't always feel good for me.

If I were to attempt more 2nd and 3rd ball attacks, I'm pretty sure my win% would drop for a season. But is taking a dive needed to get over the hurdle in the long run?

I think taking several steps back to get eventual leap in performance is worth it.

 

[blahness]

Well yes, the very topic of this thread was that I was asking if my "strength" is actually holding me back. I already recognized that my style is a slower, patient, efficient, safe style. 2nd and 3rd ball attacks don't always feel good for me.

If I were to attempt more 2nd and 3rd ball attacks, I'm pretty sure my win% would drop for a season. But is taking a dive needed to get over the hurdle in the long run?

It's not just about 2nd or 3rd ball attacks but the threat level of your shots which could be placement, spin related too.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Right, I know what you mean. I don't think he typically wins best of 5 against me. Of the group of guys who I typically play with, this guy probably offers the most danger when he hits his loops. There are 2 other guys around 1800 who I often play with, they are not quite as dangerous.

One guy I sometimes play with is 2000 and plays a very different style, very fast and flat style. He gives me a lot of trouble. I talked about him in my "looping every serve" thread. I don't play him too often, but I can try to play him next time and record video.

But I guess the main point I'm trying to analyze, is that even when I play this guy, my style is this type of counterpunching style. It's more patient, slower, emphasizing efficiency. I feel this is what I do well. But maybe I need to re-tool my game to play faster off the 2nd ball and 3rd ball.

HI TENSOR
Having watched all the clips there is quite good movement and timing on both sides. I see what you mean. concern for consistency works against freedom to attack at FIRST OPPORTUNITY.
I would suggest that 10 minutes close range "kamikaze hitting " (with good form) would be quite benficial . You could describe it as killing the kill off the bounce aiming at each others rackets with very short relaxed strokes.
The tendency for both players to give ground and end up middle distance while good for footwork and exploring angles, means that a chance to become used really lightening responses can be missed.
Just exchange straight forward topspin serves and kill off the bounce. If you find that you can't manage more than a couple without error then perhaps work basic fh stroke and prep is required.

btw your venue is very nice

 

[dingyibvs]

Well yes, the very topic of this thread was that I was asking if my "strength" is actually holding me back. I already recognized that my style is a slower, patient, efficient, safe style. 2nd and 3rd ball attacks don't always feel good for me.

If I were to attempt more 2nd and 3rd ball attacks, I'm pretty sure my win% would drop for a season. But is taking a dive needed to get over the hurdle in the long run?

Just my 2 cents, but I think it is. In both practice matches and to a lesser extent league matches, I'm in a perpetual "taking a dive" mode. My aim for every match is to apply something that I can do in training but can't yet do reliably in games. That results in a rather high error rate, and I get a lot of "you're hitting [insert shot type] too hard" type of advice from guys I pass by within a few months. In league matches I do get the urge to win, and sometimes I abandon it and start sticking to what I know. My solution lately is just to stop playing league matches until I reach a certain checkpoint.

Just yesterday I spent the session at the club playing against a lower level player. I always find ways to make playing lower level players work for me. His specialty is his BH counter, so I worked on serving long to his BH then attacking as strongly as possible his return which he can do more proficiently than most. He beat me 3-0 the first time we played about a year ago, his advice after that game was that I loop too hard with my FH. Now he's stuck in the 3rd group at the club, while I'm hitting monster FHs at a high clip and am around the top of the 1st group.

His advice after our session last night was that I loop too hard with my BH. Well, yes, I know I do, I'm landing my hard BH loops at about a 30% rate in games right now, I know it's a losing shot. We were just practicing, and I want to know exactly what's not translating from practices to games, so I can target my practices for it.

That was a practice session between you two, right? IMO every practice session should have goals re: what you want to improve. What did you want to improve in your session against him? What's your plan in accomplishing your goals? How did you do? If you didn't accomplish your goals, what can you modify in practices to accomplish it? I spend a good amount of time after each practice assessing the session and answering those questions, and I feel that this goal-directed approach has really helped me improve.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

It's not just about 2nd or 3rd ball attacks but the threat level of your shots which could be placement, spin related too.

Or you could go full Gozo(tm): Whack first, ask question later.

 

[blahness]

Just my 2 cents, but I think it is. In both practice matches and to a lesser extent league matches, I'm in a perpetual "taking a dive" mode. My aim for every match is to apply something that I can do in training but can't yet do reliably in games. That results in a rather high error rate, and I get a lot of "you're hitting [insert shot type] too hard" type of advice from guys I pass by within a few months. In league matches I do get the urge to win, and sometimes I abandon it and start sticking to what I know. My solution lately is just to stop playing league matches until I reach a certain checkpoint.

Just yesterday I spent the session at the club playing against a lower level player. I always find ways to make playing lower level players work for me. His specialty is his BH counter, so I worked on serving long to his BH then attacking as strongly as possible his return which he can do more proficiently than most. He beat me 3-0 the first time we played about a year ago, his advice after that game was that I loop too hard with my FH. Now he's stuck in the 3rd group at the club, while I'm hitting monster FHs at a high clip and am around the top of the 1st group.

His advice after our session last night was that I loop too hard with my BH. Well, yes, I know I do, I'm landing my hard BH loops at about a 30% rate in games right now, I know it's a losing shot. We were just practicing, and I want to know exactly what's not translating from practices to games, so I can target my practices for it.

That was a practice session between you two, right? IMO every practice session should have goals re: what you want to improve. What did you want to improve in your session against him? What's your plan in accomplishing your goals? How did you do? If you didn't accomplish your goals, what can you modify in practices to accomplish it? I spend a good amount of time after each practice assessing the session and answering those questions, and I feel that this goal-directed approach has really helped me improve.

+1 yes there should be a goal for each practice session, it should never be just blind playing games or rallying. For me too I'm always working on something in training regardless of the opponent and sometimes that means allowing them to play their strengths instead of exploiting their weaknesses to the max.

It helps that I bought a basket of balls and a ball picker so I can do multiball against anyone I meet at the club. Much more productive this way.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

OP plays a solid game, but everything in his game (from serve/receive to rallying) is focused on safety with not a lot of sting or variation in them. There is no killer instinct in his game.

.....

It's quite hard to improve if you're afraid of trying new shots and are always concerned about error rates. You need to take all those risks especially in training to learn and expand your repertoire.

And why I am suggesting he start practicing with players who are higher level and beating him solidly is, he will have to start doing what you say. Whereas, a consistent thing I see in the footage TensorBH posts is that the people he is playing against do not present a challenge to him. He has moved up to players that are higher level than the ones he was playing 6 months ago. But they are still lower level than TenBH, and they still don't present him with much of a challenge. He can win a majority of the points by just putting the ball on the table and waiting for them to make mistakes. Wins with very few winning shots. Against a player who is a few notches higher level than he is, he will have to find ways to win points even if there are long rallies. But against a higher level attacking player, likely, many of the points will be over after the opponent's first attack.

Without that pressure of playing someone where, if he waits for the point to develop, he has lost the point before he gets into it, he won't see the need for taking those risks. Against the opponents I am talking about, it will mean losing the points by being cautious or taking the risks.

So, what I am saying is, we agree and are kind of giving very related advice.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

i saw your clips TensorBH.
it gives a good idea of your standard. But you're playing only against one opponent. It would be instructive to see you struggling against a higher rated opponent which shows your weaknesses.

I don't know if you're playing 50% 70% or more of your potential here. anyway take the below comments as it is, informed only by a quick look at your short videos.

The shot that i like most is actually.... your 3rd ball BH opener. its spinny and consistent. Your body is well balanced when you execute. But... it bounces too much on the middle of the table. still the form and amount of spin is good, and i think if you can put on the same quality on more difficult balls (faster / more backspin) , and a better placement, then it can become a great weapon.

I think when the rallies are going on at this speed, you're not making too many mistakes, but you're too passive. you block is really so so (on both sides) but because your opponent isn't strong, you find the way after 2-3 blocks to attack again with your FH. Also i think your average rally shot is a bit too flat and slow. because you're not in the best position, and you're not putting enough effort at moving quick to be in a good position and at making the ball spin.

your FH drive is quite spinny, but i feel its at the cost of a too big swing that make you lose your balance. Your legs are also a bit too close to each other. Thats why you often miss the 2nd or 3rd attack. It feels like your FH lacks power, because youre not using enough the power from your legs, your posture is a bit wrong, and your swing should go more forward instead of upwards.

serve / receive is always something to improve on. I had the impression that your BH long backspin serve was the most dangerous one. the others are good enough so that the opponent at this level doesn't attack strongly and you get the initiative. You had good control and stability with your racket angle in pushes.

--
i already gave above my own experience about how I try to improve. I hope you get some ideas for yourself

 

[ben1229]

Find someone higher level to play with, that make you can't even attack , you will improve alot, the guy you play with looks like feeding you the chance to attack.

 

[blahness]

i saw your clips TensorBH.
it gives a good idea of your standard. But you're playing only against one opponent. It would be instructive to see you struggling against a higher rated opponent which shows your weaknesses.

I don't know if you're playing 50% 70% or more of your potential here. anyway take the below comments as it is, informed only by a quick look at your short videos.

The shot that i like most is actually.... your 3rd ball BH opener. its spinny and consistent. Your body is well balanced when you execute. But... it bounces too much on the middle of the table. still the form and amount of spin is good, and i think if you can put on the same quality on more difficult balls (faster / more backspin) , and a better placement, then it can become a great weapon.

I think when the rallies are going on at this speed, you're not making too many mistakes, but you're too passive. you block is really so so (on both sides) but because your opponent isn't strong, you find the way after 2-3 blocks to attack again with your FH. Also i think your average rally shot is a bit too flat and slow. because you're not in the best position, and you're not putting enough effort at moving quick to be in a good position and at making the ball spin.

your FH drive is quite spinny, but i feel its at the cost of a too big swing that make you lose your balance. Your legs are also a bit too close to each other. Thats why you often miss the 2nd or 3rd attack. It feels like your FH lacks power, because youre not using enough the power from your legs, your posture is a bit wrong, and your swing should go more forward instead of upwards.

serve / receive is always something to improve on. I had the impression that your BH long backspin serve was the most dangerous one. the others are good enough so that the opponent at this level doesn't attack strongly and you get the initiative. You had good control and stability with your racket angle in pushes.

--
i already gave above my own experience about how I try to improve. I hope you get some ideas for yourself

For FH loop, OP's elbow is way too far away from his body during the backswing. From this position a lot of the body power is lost in transit. If he tucks it in he will be able to control it using his body and use a lot more body power in his shots. And yes, going more forward rather than upwards is quite important too - right now everything appears to be more of a thin brush rather than a thicker brush contact.

And also yes for the rally speed and spin - OP's BH will get picked on even by penholders who play fast off the bounce, and they're even better at high speed flat balls.

But imo it's not that OP can't add quality to his shot but that he refuses to do so because it would initially increase his error rates. He is more comfortable just waiting for his opponent to make a mistake.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Since posting this question, I'm just watching the Men's CNT play, particularly their return strategy. I see they really use the push a lot on return. They either try to push short or hard long. So I'm wondering how important it really is to attempt the 2nd ball attack.

Also even on the 3rd ball attack, I see that they try hard to create a good 3rd ball attack opportunity. But if the ball is short or low, they seem to just push it.

 

[dingyibvs]

Since posting this question, I'm just watching the Men's CNT play, particularly their return strategy. I see they really use the push a lot on return. They either try to push short or hard long. So I'm wondering how important it really is to attempt the 2nd ball attack.

Also even on the 3rd ball attack, I see that they try hard to create a good 3rd ball attack opportunity. But if the ball is short or low, they seem to just push it.

They push because they can't do a quality 2nd ball attack. A quality push either to force a popup or a weak opening loop is better than attempting a weak 2nd ball attack.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I finally got to practice against a 2000 player today. Previously he was rated 2080, but today sits around 2000. Apart from his higher level, I feel his style is my kryptonite. He stands very close to the table and smashes the ball from both sides right off the bounce. His style is just all wrong for me, because it doesn't allow me to play my counterpunch style. We played a few practice matches. First match I lost 2-3. I always have trouble dealing with his fast-attack style, and I feel like I was having lots of issues with his serve as well. Compared to other opponents, we have much fewer rallies. The close to table smashing style really eliminates the rhythmic rallies from the game and I actually don't really enjoy our style matchup.

Here's a best of 3 we played, I lost 1-2 despite being up 9-7 in 3rd game.