Is this bad form? Or am I overacting.

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes. That said, coping with opponent's mouth doesn't mean you cannot fight the opponent with verbal retaliation if that is your preferred way of coping with the mental warfare. That is why the stoic approach is not the only approach that is correct in these situations. The main argument for the stoic approach is that you are focusing on something you can control better (your mindset), but there is also no reason why your mindset shouldn't be allowed to say something back to the opponent to make yourself feel better because the truth is that the opponent should not be saying anything at all!.

I have not met a coach that would use your approach to teach players to fight the mental warfare like that
maybe in the amateur space, you can go into verbal exchanges, but in any semi pro setting, learning to cope with all copes of tactics, whether delay or irritations or what not, is all part of "unsportmanship winning", and learning to cope is very much part of the training.

saying something back could have consequences. ie, like OP now has this "bothering" in his mind for so many days? lol

 

[Jslick89]

I have not met a coach that would use your approach to teach players to fight the mental warfare like that
maybe in the amateur space, you can go into verbal exchanges, but in any semi pro setting, learning to cope with all copes of tactics, whether delay or irritations or what not, is all part of "unsportmanship winning", and learning to cope is very much part of the training.

saying something back could have consequences. ie, like OP now has this "bothering" in his mind for so many days? lol

I remember I was at just a regular league play and my coach happened to be there.

There was an opponent who was clearly doing an illegal serve (dropping the ball below the table before ultimately tossing it up) against my friend who was playing him. I asked my coach if we should try and stop match to make sure this guy started serving legally.

I told my coach if I was playing that opponent it would annoy me. My coach said that I should forget about it, that there is nothing I could really do right now, and when it came down to it, the illegal serve will hurt that player more when he goes play in a sanctioned tournament. He said that I should just focus on my own game because that is all I can control.

Now, I don't know if that is the right advice, but I have been sticking with it, at least in league play. Thankfully, I haven't played an opponent with an illegal serve in a tournament. But I do think it was good advice overall because I don't let the little things distract me from my game. I have multiple club mates who let every little thing and distraction throw them off from their game, and it does not serve them well. for example, if people are sitting in the bench behind the tables and they are talking too loud. one of the better players at our club gets completely distracted. Yes, people should try to keep their voices quiet during a point, but it is an open club. People are talking and playing. Don't let the little things throw you off from your game. I like to think of each of these things as an opportunity to strengthen my mental fortitude.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I remember I was at just a regular league play and my coach happened to be there.

There was an opponent who was clearly doing an illegal serve (dropping the ball below the table before ultimately tossing it up) against my friend who was playing him. I asked my coach if we should try and stop match to make sure this guy started serving legally.

I told my coach if I was playing that opponent it would annoy me. My coach said that I should forget about it, that there is nothing I could really do right now, and when it came down to it, the illegal serve will hurt that player more when he goes play in a sanctioned tournament. He said that I should just focus on my own game because that is all I can control.

Now, I don't know if that is the right advice, but I have been sticking with it, at least in league play. Thankfully, I haven't played an opponent with an illegal serve in a tournament. But I do think it was good advice overall because I don't let the little things distract me from my game. I have multiple club mates who let every little thing and distraction throw them off from their game, and it does not serve them well. for example, if people are sitting in the bench behind the tables and they are talking too loud. one of the better players at our club gets completely distracted. Yes, people should try to keep their voices quiet during a point, but it is an open club. People are talking and playing. Don't let the little things throw you off from your game. I like to think of each of these things as an opportunity to strengthen my mental fortitude.

I think most will teach players to be in control of themselves than try to control others.
if there is an umpire, of course you can request the umpire to intervene and make it difficult for the opponent to serve legally.

but, relying on umpires? well, you know I will never put any gamble on umpires. Think of it as very untrustworthy and you still need to fight your own battles.

with coaching between points, the "noise" is now also more problematic.
audience close by is also a problem

This is why matches/tournaments experience are important, as it is beyond just hitting the ball, but rather, adapting to different situations.

 

[NextLevel]

I have not met a coach that would use your approach to teach players to fight the mental warfare like that
maybe in the amateur space, you can go into verbal exchanges, but in any semi pro setting, learning to cope with all copes of tactics, whether delay or irritations or what not, is all part of "unsportmanship winning", and learning to cope is very much part of the training.

saying something back could have consequences. ie, like OP now has this "bothering" in his mind for so many days? lol

My coach taught me that the most important thing is to believe what keeps you in the right zone of competitiveness. It was usually positive and stoic but it wasn't always positive and stoic. It required some sustainability and application to wide circumstances so therefore most coaches would not consider an approach that places too much focus outside of you to be good. But the real issue isn't the outside focus but what the solution does to your internal focus.

I mean let us look at CCY as an example with his match vs Tanaka. Is that the approach he was trained to use when he felt his opponent cheated? And since the Umpire ruling is supposed to be accepted, is that the way he was trained to accept it?

Should you complain when someone is serving illegally or just accept it? Should your response change whether a referee/umpire is around or not? In the end, you should do what you believe puts you in the best mindset to win and focus on the match. Any coach who advocates a one size approach to coaching is just lucky to coach the same kinds of players over and over. When your opponent is doing things that affect you, you can only control yourself.

For professionals, they are dealing with a wide variety of things. Usually the focus is on what you can control. But how you get to an internal point to focus on what you can control is different for some people. Without complaining at least once, some people cannot be focused. I have even sometimes managed to get people to stop doing something by complaining about it. And sometimes after they don't stop, I can at least accept that I have asked once and they will not change so I can focus on the game. The earlier the better.

Part of the reason OP is thinking about it is because he wants to understand it. It is through reflection we build the stories that help us see how best to navigate such things. Acting like it is a problem to think about it is setting the issue before going through the process.

 

[Draycott old man]

I believe it is bad form to make fun at anyone's mistakes,as I like to be treated as I treat other people!!! But as we know all Humans are different with different morals and opinions!!! We can't control what they do and think but we can control how we react to there behaviour and the best way is to do your talking on the table and show them it hasn't affected you !!! You turn into the silent assassin, silence is golden!!!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

My coach taught me that the most important thing is to believe what keeps you in the right zone of competitiveness. It was usually positive and stoic but it wasn't always positive and stoic. It required some sustainability and application to wide circumstances so therefore most coaches would not consider an approach that places too much focus outside of you to be good. But the real issue isn't the outside focus but what the solution does to your internal focus.

I mean let us look at CCY as an example with his match vs Tanaka. Is that the approach he was trained to use when he felt his opponent cheated? And since the Umpire ruling is supposed to be accepted, is that the way he was trained to accept it?

yeah, he talked back and it didn't work
should of just be the normal him and move on.
this is the risk of opening your mouth way too much, as I was saying - the consequences thereof.
it would even affect the best of the best.
CCY did pretty well the last time this happened - do i need to repost the video?

Should you complain when someone is serving illegally or just accept it? Should your response change whether a referee/umpire is around or not?

Umpires are useless, can try complaining, but don't put umpires as the excuse if you loose, a lost is a lost.

In the end, you should do what you believe puts you in the best mindset to win and focus on the match. Any coach who advocates a one size approach to coaching is just lucky to coach the same kinds of players over and over. When your opponent is doing things that affect you, you can only control yourself.

there is no one size approach when you are told to learn to cope with the problem than trying to make excuses.
There is too many new generations (what alphabet are we at now?) that can't take on self responsibility, so coaches need to coach that way more today than ever.

For professionals, they are dealing with a wide variety of things. Usually the focus is on what you can control. But how you get to an internal point to focus on what you can control is different for some people. Without complaining at least once, some people cannot be focused. I have even sometimes managed to get people to stop doing something by complaining about it. And sometimes after they don't stop, I can at least accept that I have asked once and they will not change so I can focus on the game. The earlier the better.

Part of the reason OP is thinking about it is because he wants to understand it. It is through reflection we build the stories that help us see how best to navigate such things. Acting like it is a problem to think about it is setting the issue before going through the process.

well, op is a club setting.
if nothing is serious there, then he is overreacting to people joking around.
which is a good place to learn self control, mind you.

 

[NextLevel]

yeah, he talked back and it didn't work
should of just be the normal him and move on.
this is the risk of opening your mouth way too much, as I was saying - the consequences thereof.
it would even affect the best of the best.
CCY did pretty well the last time this happened - do i need to repost the video?

Umpires are useless, can try complaining, but don't put umpires as the excuse if you loose, a lost is a lost.


there is no one size approach when you are told to learn to cope with the problem than trying to make excuses.
There is too many new generations (what alphabet are we at now?) that can't take on self responsibility, so coaches need to coach that way more today than ever.

well, op is a club setting.
if nothing is serious there, then he is overreacting to people joking around.
which is a good place to learn self control, mind you.

If your best play is a mindset that requires you to take things seriously, even if a club setting that is not serious, that is your best mindset. Whether it is balanced with other things is another story, but sometimes, it is by raising the stakes in practice that you get better at dealing with discomfort in serious matches.

My point is that if a pro like CCY can show these issues, then maybe being coached about them by coaches who aren't professional psychologists isn't as all powerfully effective as you might make out? Some people hire professional psychologists to deal with these issues. The emphasis is on routines etc. But one thing I have consistently noticed in my personal practice and discussions with players who have taken such help on is that any attempt to enforce an approach that doesn't account for the personality of the player is often doomed to be more limited than it would be if it did. Because you need to get the player into an optimal and sustainable zone and what that means for each player is different and complaining about something is not the same as giving your control of that thing away as long as the complaint itself is part of the process that gets you into the right mindset.

 

[Wrighty67]

What good is supposed to come of mocking someone's mistake in an intensely competitive situation when you are both at close quarters with each other? I know when things are cool, it is easy to just laugh off, but it can be hard to know what someone's competitive mindset requires in tight situations.

No good comes of it but it’s mostly just people letting off steam and not with bad intentions. To react negatively only impacts you - not them

 

[NextLevel]

No good comes of it but it’s mostly just people letting off steam and not with bad intentions. To react negatively only impacts you - not them

Telling them to stop is is not necessarily a negative reaction and for some people is part of the process of getting to acceptance. Who knows, maybe OP is now ready to not react "negatively" because he has finally reacted after keeping his annoyance pent up all this time.

 

[suds79]

Telling them to stop is is not necessarily a negative reaction and for some people is part of the process of getting to acceptance. Who knows, maybe OP is now ready to not react "negatively" because he has finally reacted after keeping his annoyance pent up all this time.

Well this topic certainly has gotten a lot more traction than I anticipated. I appreciate all the thoughts on the matter from everybody and respect the many views on it.

With that being said, just like everybody else, I have thoughts of my own.

Given this was Sunday night and I've had time to reflect & see answers here, I'm inclined, of course there's two sides to every story in that maybe he feels differently, to feel this isn't a big deal and I've said my peace. So in a way I suppose I'm agreeing with Next Level's comment of either choice was fine. (if others more or less said that, didn't mean to leave you out.)

I'm the type in a competitive environment, I'll just dish it out as much as the next guy wants to. The opponent gets to help dictate where we take this. But I won't just sit there and take it. That's for sure. While I still think it's bad form, again I see no difference from a comment like this to choing on someone's service error (Yes! Lets go!, etc) all the same thing, then if you do it to me? You bet I'll do it to you. Fair is fair.

Having said that, tone can't be conveyed in my OP but I really did try to as politely ask him not to as I could have. I don't think it got in my head or effected my gameplay going forward. I just thought I'd finally mention this thing I find bad form. Truth be told I don't want to be the type to make some sarcastic joke when he Fs up on a serve. "oh nice serve." "Thank you may I have another." etc. Not my style. But if he's doing it to me, again it's coming right back to him when it's my turn.

But I said my peace to him. I'm sure because he's been doing this for years & years with the exact same line, I'm sure it's just reflex to him now. So if he says it, whatever. I'm not going to call him out on it anymore. If it makes him hesitate "oh Suds doesn't like it when I do that. Maybe I shouldn't. Or maybe I should." Truth be told I don't really care. I'm just going to play my game. He should just know if you dish it out, you have to be able to take it when it's your turn.

There was a side topic in here about someone with an illegal serve and if one should say something. This notion about speaking up as a sign you're off your game I completely disagree with. Not that long ago Timo Boll spoke up vs someone who had an illegal serve and sure enough a few plays later the umpire called it. Was Timo being weak minded there? No. The person was breaking the rule and rather than dealing with the disadvantage of not being able to see the serve the rest of the match, he rectified the situation to give himself the best possible chance of winning. Saying something doesn't necessarily mean one is tilted.

 

[NetProphet]

But I won't just sit there and take it. That's for sure. While I still think it's bad form, again I see no difference from a comment like this to choing on someone's service error (Yes! Lets go!, etc) all the same thing, then if you do it to me? You bet I'll do it to you. Fair is fair.

You mean unfair is unfair?

Truth be told I don't want to be the type to make some sarcastic joke when he Fs up on a serve. "oh nice serve." "Thank you may I have another." etc. Not my style. But if he's doing it to me, again it's coming right back to him when it's my turn.

It seems from what you've written that other people can drag you in a negative direction quite quickly and easily. By negative I mean in a direction that you yourself say you don't really want to go.
That seems like an outright mental weakness.
If you're going to do something just because someone else does it then you kind of forego the right to complain about it or you end up being a hypocrite but either way I can't see how being unsporting because someone else is will ever help you and it will likely diminish your character in the eyes of others.

If you really believe that you "don't want to be the type to make some sarcastic joke when he Fs up on a serve" then it's best to find a way to not do that rather than adopting the 'he did it first approach'. That just seems immature.

IMO it's better to figure out a mental approach that supports what you believe and this will help you more in the long run. Be the rock others founder on, as they say.

 

[Wrighty67]

Telling them to stop is is not necessarily a negative reaction and for some people is part of the process of getting to acceptance. Who knows, maybe OP is now ready to not react "negatively" because he has finally reacted after keeping his annoyance pent up all this time.

Yes, it is - whichever way you look at it the response will trigger a situation where the normal run of a fun club night has been spoiled and tensions aroused. All three other players will have felt this and probably felt uncomfortable too. It’s a club night not a tournament or league match, he says the guy is decent and so in that context this is an over reaction in my view.

 

[NetProphet]

Yes, it is - whichever way you look at it the response will trigger a situation where the normal run of a fun club night has been spoiled and tensions aroused. All three other players will have felt this and probably felt uncomfortable too. It’s a club night not a tournament or league match, he says the guy is decent and so in that context this is an over reaction in my view.

Couldn't agree more.
The problem of applying logic and rationale to an irrational reaction, in this case a dislike for what's basically meant as a joke.
The only really meaningful way to explore these things is through the mind of those affected and figuring out what is it thats really causing the response. (I am speaking of myself here as much as anyone else!)
And short of fixing the issue the next thing is to not externalise the issue. Externalising the fact that you can't take a joke is a bad move and makes you look like the problem which, essentially, you are 😂

 

[NextLevel]

Couldn't agree more.
The problem of applying logic and rational to an irrational reaction, in this case a dislike for what's basically meant as a joke.
The only really meaningful way to explore these things is through the kind of those affected and figuring out what is it thats really causing the response. (I am speaking of myself here as much as anyone else!)
And short of fixing the issue the next thing is to not externalise the issue. Externalising the fact that you can't take a joke is a bad move and makes you look like the problem which, essentially, you are 😂

I think that is one perspective for sure.

 

[suds79]

It seems from what you've written that other people can drag you in a negative direction quite quickly and easily. By negative I mean in a direction that you yourself say you don't really want to go.
That seems like an outright mental weakness.

I guess agree to disagree.

I look at it as answering the level of competitiveness and/or gamesmanship to match their level. It's a club night and yes we're all friendly but in a match make no mistake, everybody is trying to win and the competition level ramps up when the game starts.

So I'll match the intensity and/or tactics both physically & mentally if I have to. That best helps get my mindset right for competition. Truth be told I've often found I play some of my best table tennis when I have a little fire in my belly. I know that's true.

If I didn't take is approach, I'd look at it as they did something to you and you didn't answer. Could be personality difference here. Maybe if you took this same approach with your style it would be mental weakness so you don't do it. For me I just view it as I just explained.

 

[NetProphet]

I guess agree to disagree.

I look at it as answering the level of competitiveness and/or gamesmanship to match their level. It's a club night and yes we're all friendly but in a match make no mistake, everybody is trying to win and the competition level ramps up when the game starts.

So I'll match the intensity and/or tactics both physically & mentally if I have to. That best helps get my mindset right for competition. Truth be told I've often found I play some of my best table tennis when I have a little fire in my belly. I know that's true.

If I didn't take is approach, I'd look at it as they did something to you and you didn't answer. Could be personality difference here. Maybe if you took this same approach with your style it would be mental weakness so you don't do it. For me I just view it as I just explained.

Yes, for me I get satisfaction from not entering into their BS talk, because I assume that's what they want. I personally can't get into that sort of talk and concentrate 100% on my game.
And I won't let myself down by sounding like the very thing I dislike, no way they're gonna bring me down to their level, not a chance in hell. And thats what lights the fire in my belly and puts a smile on my face. The 'nice try, have some of this' satisfaction I get when I do it my way and play well. 😊
Each to their own eh!
Thanks for initiating a good discussion and good luck! 👍

 

[Jslick89]

There was a side topic in here about someone with an illegal serve and if one should say something. This notion about speaking up as a sign you're off your game I completely disagree with. Not that long ago Timo Boll spoke up vs someone who had an illegal serve and sure enough a few plays later the umpire called it. Was Timo being weak minded there? No. The person was breaking the rule and rather than dealing with the disadvantage of not being able to see the serve the rest of the match, he rectified the situation to give himself the best possible chance of winning. Saying something doesn't necessarily mean one is tilted.

That was me, but I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. It wasn't that you shouldn't say something when your opponent is doing an illegal serve, it was more so that if you let something effect you, there could be no end to the down-spiraling effects. By all means, if you're at a tournament and your opponent is not following the rules, say something to the umpire. But there's also a chance the umpire doesn't agree with you. Then what? You have to be prepared as a player to move on from that.....

I've seen plenty of pro players complain to the umpire to no avail. I didn't keep track always of if they won the match or not. I can only speak to my personal experience, which in my humble opinion, it is much better for me to focus on my footwork, contact zone, and tactics than it is for me to focus on the legality of my opponents serve or the words that may or may not come out of their mouths.

Cheers.

 

[NextLevel]

You mean unfair is unfair?


It seems from what you've written that other people can drag you in a negative direction quite quickly and easily. By negative I mean in a direction that you yourself say you don't really want to go.
That seems like an outright mental weakness.
If you're going to do something just because someone else does it then you kind of forego the right to complain about it or you end up being a hypocrite but either way I can't see how being unsporting because someone else will ever help you and it will likely diminish your character in the eyes of others.

If you really believe that you "don't want to be the type to make some sarcastic joke when he Fs up on a serve" then it's best to find a way to not do that rather than adopting the 'he did it first approach'. That just seems immature.

IMO it's better to figure out a mental approach that supports what you believe and this will help you kore in the long run. Be the rock others founder on, as they say.

This isn't necessarily true. Why do many players who hardly celebrate when playing their matches start celebrating when their opponents celebrate? Are they immature because they are choing in response to their opponent? Do they now forgo the right to complain about the opponent's loudness because they need to cho to maintain their mental attitude in the face of the opponent's display of bravado?

Why was Timo Boll driven to the point of practicing illegal serves when challenged by an opponent before ultimately deciding not to deploy them in the match? Was he immature for practicing them but mature for not using them?

The idea that someone should take a putdown as a joke just because it was intended as a joke is not grounded in anything other than a moral attitude. Would the morality change if it wasn't a joke and the opponent was trying to be intentionally annoying?

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, for me I get satisfaction from not entering into their BS talk, because I assume that's what they want. I personally can't get into that sort of talk and concentrate 100% on my game.
And I won't let myself down by sounding like the very thing I dislike, no way they're gonna bring me down to their level, not a chance in hell. And thats what lights the fire in my belly and puts a smile on my face. The 'nice try, have some of this' satisfaction I get when I do it my way and play well. 😊
Each to their own eh!
Thanks for initiating a good discussion and good luck! 👍

The main point about talking to the opponent and remaining 100% focused is a key point I agree with. And that is why it is often recommended that you learn to ignore such things because your focus should be on the match. Where I disagree is that there are in my experience players who play better after addressing such things directly and then refocusing on the game, as opposed to ignoring them and trying to focus on the game without addressing them. That way, they get their opponent's intentions out of the way and can then face them completely without any hesitation. Thanksfully, competitive mindset is something serious competitors grow into with trial and error - it isn't something where the best answer is available to everyone to motivate themselves from the beginning.

 

[NetProphet]

This isn't necessarily true. Why do many players who hardly celebrate when playing their matches start celebrating when their opponents celebrate? Are they immature because they are choing in response to their opponent? Do they now forgo the right to complain about the opponent's loudness because they need to cho to maintain their mental attitude in the face of the opponent's display of bravado?

What you've done is take my example in direct response to someone who actually complained and who actually said they didn't want to be the type of person to do said action and applied it to a generic random event that I/we can only make assumptions about.
I can't say why random no example player A may or may not start celebrating a point against a player who also celebrates loudly.
We might logically assume that he got caught up in the emotion of the match/situation or whatever but that's not the same as doing something you have outright said you'd rather not do. For most players (myself included) matching the energy on the other side of the table with a 'yes!' or a fistpump isn't usually something construed as negative.
But YES, they do forego the right to complain about opponent behaviour if they too partake in it. Or you can complain and be called a hypocrite...

Why was Timo Boll driven to the point of practicing illegal serves when challenged by an opponent before ultimately deciding not to deploy them in the match? Was he immature for practicing them but mature for not using them?

I have no idea why Timo was driven to the point of practicing illegal serves, I actually don't know this story.
Knowing Timo's character as a sportsman I would put my money on him doing this purely as a story to bring attention to it (probably?).
But yes, it was an immature move for someone as experienced and honest as Timo Boll to practise illegal serves and very mature to not use them. Maturity in rising above the BS and saving/further enhancing his reputation.
Do you not think so?
What was the mature and immature move in this situation?

The idea that someone should take a putdown as a joke just because it was intended as a joke is not grounded in anything other than a moral attitude. Would the morality change if it wasn't a joke and the opponent was trying to be intentionally annoying?

Yes. We both know that intention matters.
You are the one saying 'putdown' though... The OP himself said it was a joke he personally didn't find funny and clarified that the guy was really nice and intended no harm. I relate strongly to this because the 'thank you' joke for bad serves does my head in, as I tried to explain in another post.
Do you believe that the morality of actions remains constant/unchanged regardless of the intention behind them?