ITTF/WTT problems reported from players

[backspacer]

yes there is.
at AGM, I have read the minutes.
to me, I think you need a lot of more rebel, until people take AC serious in AGM

maybe even form unions or players association, that can deal with matters outside of AGM (AGM is once a year...)

I know Dang Qiu also complained about the playing system for the group stage and that whole delayed payment thing is a huge flag. I guess players need to collectively complain about their issues to make it gain track.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

the delayed payment thing is really a problem. if pro players come victim of a scam... i can't imagine whats next

 

[dingyibvs]

The fundamental issue here is really money, or lack thereof. If there's more money in TT, there'd be competition for WTT, and then players would have more leverage when they complain to WTT. You can't rely on national associations for this, as their interests end at their borders. Right now, what can the likes of Aruna or Groth realistically do?

I'm hoping an entrepreneurial type sees the potential in TT and rebuild the competitive scene from the ground up. That will need to start with the grassroots level, like what Adam Bobrow has been doing.

For example, maybe MLTT can can require their players to do what Bobrow does, set up a table once every couple months on a windless day in some major Metropolitan area and ask passersby to challenge a pro for money. Then maybe have some pro player plants to challenge the pro at the end and wow people with how insane real professional TT is like. Drum up social media engagement this way, and build support for the long term.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The fundamental issue here is really money, or lack thereof. If there's more money in TT, there'd be competition for WTT, and then players would have more leverage when they complain to WTT. You can't rely on national associations for this, as their interests end at their borders. Right now, what can the likes of Aruna or Groth realistically do?

you are right as players can only talk to AC
but if MA is not on players side, then MA won't complain as a country.
Most of the times and from what I know, many countries won't fight ITTF.
So players are on their own.

I'm hoping an entrepreneurial type sees the potential in TT and rebuild the competitive scene from the ground up. That will need to start with the grassroots level, like what Adam Bobrow has been doing.

This is where I say TT needs to be a club model and international becomes secondary.
There is so much more energy in Club table tennis in Europe, China, Japan, Korea, than there is "WTT events".

For example, maybe MLTT can can require their players to do what Bobrow does, set up a table once every couple months on a windless day in some major Metropolitan area and ask passersby to challenge a pro for money. Then maybe have some pro player plants to challenge the pro at the end and wow people with how insane real professional TT is like. Drum up social media engagement this way, and build support for the long term.

Not a bad idea, but Pros probably won't have time for this.
You would need a team of people to set it up, and the pro rocks up for an hour or so. then maybe that is possible.
but right now, there is no money to hire people to do these things.
Adam makes his money from youtube, and employs people to do a lot of things for him, so he has a lot of time to be travelling and filming

 

[dingyibvs]

you are right as players can only talk to AC
but if MA is not on players side, then MA won't complain as a country.
Most of the times and from what I know, many countries won't fight ITTF.
So players are on their own.

This is where I say TT needs to be a club model and international becomes secondary.
There is so much more energy in Club table tennis in Europe, China, Japan, Korea, than there is "WTT events".

Not a bad idea, but Pros probably won't have time for this.
You would need a team of people to set it up, and the pro rocks up for an hour or so. then maybe that is possible.
but right now, there is no money to hire people to do these things.
Adam makes his money from youtube, and employs people to do a lot of things for him, so he has a lot of time to be travelling and filming

Starting with the club model definitely sounds like a good idea, but I think SM engagement will still be key. If Bobrow can make money via SM, why can't the pros? In some e-sports some pros retire and become full-time Youtubers, for example, producing content like beating amateur grandmasters with ridiculous constraints. We see a lot of retired CNT members becoming SM stars producing content as well, though only in China.

It'd be fun to see say Gauzy walking into a high level club like say 888 here in the Bay area and take on their top players by only chopping and lobbing. Energize the clubs by making club appearances, play with some newbies, and draw in non-players with public events. Make the club model a viable alternative to WTT events, and then WTT or whatever other form international TT takes will have to reform and improve if they want to stay relevant.

 

[NextLevel]

The fundamental issue here is really money, or lack thereof. If there's more money in TT, there'd be competition for WTT, and then players would have more leverage when they complain to WTT. You can't rely on national associations for this, as their interests end at their borders. Right now, what can the likes of Aruna or Groth realistically do?

I'm hoping an entrepreneurial type sees the potential in TT and rebuild the competitive scene from the ground up. That will need to start with the grassroots level, like what Adam Bobrow has been doing.

For example, maybe MLTT can can require their players to do what Bobrow does, set up a table once every couple months on a windless day in some major Metropolitan area and ask passersby to challenge a pro for money. Then maybe have some pro player plants to challenge the pro at the end and wow people with how insane real professional TT is like. Drum up social media engagement this way, and build support for the long term.

There is as much money on the embedded side of the sport and TT also has some limitations as a spectacle. But I agree that people should stop just doing that has already been done, there should be some risk taking to get more people into the sport, including variants that may not be popular. I for one would reduce the size of the ball again as the injuries created with ball changes have not been good for the sport

 

[Trevize84]

Looks like tabletennis needs a SuperLeague even more than soccer!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Starting with the club model definitely sounds like a good idea, but I think SM engagement will still be key. If Bobrow can make money via SM, why can't the pros? In some e-sports some pros retire and become full-time Youtubers, for example, producing content like beating amateur grandmasters with ridiculous constraints. We see a lot of retired CNT members becoming SM stars producing content as well, though only in China.

It'd be fun to see say Gauzy walking into a high level club like say 888 here in the Bay area and take on their top players by only chopping and lobbing. Energize the clubs by making club appearances, play with some newbies, and draw in non-players with public events. Make the club model a viable alternative to WTT events, and then WTT or whatever other form international TT takes will have to reform and improve if they want to stay relevant.

some pros have turn to becoming part time youtubers.
Adam Bobrow is one of a kind. He is a trained professional actor and comedian, who happens to play table tennis too.
I don't think Pros are that gifted with acting/comedian. Adam has a good brain for entertainment.
And he has a team of very good video editors (from Taiwan, yay).

I'm not sure if the money is big enough in table tennis for Gauzy on SM alone.
Since Adam has sponsors which cover a lot of his traveling costs for example.
maybe it will work, but that is post playing days for sure - remember, you not allowed to play TT anywhere on earth, while you withdraw/absent from a forced WTT event.

 

[andzejgolot]

Saudi Arabian money would be lit

 

[Johnniedarko]

I don't really understand the "more money would fix everything" argument or the "YouTube is the solution" idea. Nothing would change for the better. Why would it?

What would happen if the sport was more popular? Perhaps a different organization would rival WTT. Eventually the new one might even win. Who is to say this new one would be better in any way? There's no incentive, as it shown that players will put up with the current situation.

Sure the new organization could be made up of very kind, fair and capable people. But it might just as well not be. And if profit was the main incentive to get into TT, then that's no guarantee for fairer treatment at all.

The promised prize money might higher, but it doesn't matter if it still doesn't get paid out...

"Yes but players would move only to this new org if they were better and more fair". Well then they act fair for a couple of years until WTT is dead. Uber pretended to be a cheaper taxi service for a couple of years until all regular taxis were dead, and now consumers pay old prices while drivers get less.

The ONLY way for players to get fair treatment is to get LEVERAGE, by UNIONIZING and laying down demands, under the threat of not playing at all.

In many sports it is normal for player organizations to negotiate basic contracts with sporting organizations. Those organizations all had their origins in dissatisfaction by athletes.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I don't really understand the "more money would fix everything" argument or the "YouTube is the solution" idea. Nothing would change for the better. Why would it?

What would happen if the sport was more popular? Perhaps a different organization would rival WTT. Eventually the new one might even win. Who is to say this new one would be better in any way? There's no incentive, as it shown that players will put up with the current situation.

Sure the new organization could be made up of very kind, fair and capable people. But it might just as well not be. And if profit was the main incentive to get into TT, then that's no guarantee for fairer treatment at all.

The promised prize money might higher, but it doesn't matter if it still doesn't get paid out...

"Yes but players would move only to this new org if they were better and more fair". Well then they act fair for a couple of years until WTT is dead. Uber pretended to be a cheaper taxi service for a couple of years until all regular taxis were dead, and now consumers pay old prices while drivers get less.

The ONLY way for players to get fair treatment is to get LEVERAGE, by UNIONIZING and laying down demands, under the threat of not playing at all.

In many sports it is normal for player organizations to negotiate basic contracts with sporting organizations. Those organizations all had their origins in dissatisfaction by athletes.

basically i'm calling for a move away from international circuit to club circuit and money in clubs is what has transcribe from these posts.
it won't change the better for the international body, but for players and spectators, at least it will be better.

The only problem I see with that is, if the player has signed a contract with ITTF/WTT (which all of them have to, for them to take part in world events), then the international body are allowed to use the players "videos" as their own.

I agree, players need to form organizations to negotiate better deals and fairness.
right now, it is unfairness, and more players will only start speaking up.
Just look at Groth's instragram and you can see how many top pros agree with Groth on the abuse and unprofessionalism

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

another issue we have is, at the ITTF world cup, this is allowed.

now i have no problem with the player, i'm a fan
but surely this isn't allowed at the highest level tournament of the sport?

for the ones who don't understand Chinese, the announcer gets the crowd to cheer for one of the two players.
If both players was announced, then it would be fair.
but yeah, I don't see this much often (PS, this is during warmup and not the announcement for players walking out to the table)

I didn't bother go get the Ma Long one, but its only Chinese players getting these perks.
Home ground advantage it seems

 

[OvrChkn]

WTT running a major in the US again would be pretty good, albeit they should reshuffle and truly define what the majors mean to them. The market in the US is still untapped in terms of global competitions. Was hoping 2021 would have led to more things outside of feeder events in random cities.

I think the pieces are mostly there in terms of driving more interest in the sport. The marketing and accessibility of the sport to the casual audience needs to catch up to the competitions. Hoping MLTT succeeds in this aspect after doing a retrospective of their first year.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

WTT running a major in the US again would be pretty good, albeit they should reshuffle and truly define what the majors mean to them. The market in the US is still untapped in terms of global competitions. Was hoping 2021 would have led to more things outside of feeder events in random cities.

I think the pieces are mostly there in terms of driving more interest in the sport. The marketing and accessibility of the sport to the casual audience needs to catch up to the competitions. Hoping MLTT succeeds in this aspect after doing a retrospective of their first year.

I agree US is super big untap market.
i'm not sure if there is money in the US to hold bigger WTT events though.
Feeders were club tournaments basically in the US.

Kanak had to gofundme to help his Paris journey and he is a top 20 WR player from the USA

MLTT I think is doing greet, just funny that USATT has not covered anything about it

 

[IB66]

Payments in general ‘business’ can be hit and miss, I work in the construction sector, and there are always issues with payments being made, arguing about the figures etc, paperwork being correct etc. BUT if sub-contractors don’t get paid they REFUSE to price new jobs for a ‘problem’ company and move on.

However, for a competition, with media exposure it is NOT a good idea not to pay or pay late. Can you imagine Rodger Federer not getting his money for winning a tournament!! It would be all over the news world wide!! Table tennis, at present doesn’t have enough clout as far a national media exposure world wide is concerned.

Talking of Mr Federer, didn’t he recently appear in a TT video. He obviously likes TT, there are ways and means to get some ‘proper’ media exposure. Perhaps Mr Federer should be contacted about these payment issues, if he started posting about how poor the ITTF/WTT are at paying ‘their’ players, the shit would really hit the fan

I’m not sure about the legalities of the brand or name ‘table tennis’?
Does the ITTF have sole rights for the name ‘table tennis’ ? Setting the ‘rules’ of table tennis etc?

There needs to be TOTAL rebellion by the players.
AND there needs to be an ALTERNATIVE for the players to move to.

It’s interesting that darts has been mentioned. Once upon a time, there was ONE world championship, The BDO world championships (British Darts Organisation) Then the players basically rebelled, because they were disgruntled about wages and treatment by the BDO.
A couple of the top players left and with the help of Barry Hearn the PDC (Professional Darts Corporation) was formed.
The PDC started their own tour and world championship event. Now the PDC rules the roost regarding darts.
Some players are part of the PDC set up, they may have stopped playing, but hold positions within the PDC.
AN ALTERNATIVE BECAME AVAILABLE, & THE PLAYERS FLOCKED TO THE PDC. The PDC LOOK AFTER THEIR PLAYERS BECAUSE ALL SAID AND DONE ITS THE PLAYERS COMBINED WITH GOOD BUSINESS MANAGEMENT THAT MAKE OR BREAK A SPORT.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Payments in general ‘business’ can be hit and miss, I work in the construction sector, and there are always issues with payments being made, arguing about the figures etc, paperwork being correct etc. BUT if sub-contractors don’t get paid they REFUSE to price new jobs for a ‘problem’ company and move on.

However, for a competition, with media exposure it is NOT a good idea not to pay or pay late. Can you imagine Rodger Federer not getting his money for winning a tournament!! It would be all over the news world wide!! Table tennis, at present doesn’t have enough clout as far a national media exposure world wide is concerned.

Correct, no pay no play policy should come up.
the media and public will surely be on the player's side.
We havent even asked if ITTF/WTT has paid interest for late payment.

Talking of Mr Federer, didn’t he recently appear in a TT video. He obviously likes TT, there are ways and means to get some ‘proper’ media exposure. Perhaps Mr Federer should be contacted about these payment issues, if he started posting about how poor the ITTF/WTT are at paying ‘their’ players, the shit would really hit the fan

I think it really is based on if anyone powerful within the world outside of Chinese TT that wants to fight the wrong.
So far, all the players has been very non public about the matter - they just discuss with each other.
there has been non famous individuals speaking out for the past 3 years and Aruna is probably the first big star that went on publicly again them.

TT players are actually pretty connected. You don't need Mr Federer.
The American players can reach out to Mr Gates and Mr Buffet for example.
The Koreas has Mr Wartski
Japanese media is huge on TT topics
and the Europeans - i'm sure they are all connected to some one famous too.

I’m not sure about the legalities of the brand or name ‘table tennis’?
Does the ITTF have sole rights for the name ‘table tennis’ ? Setting the ‘rules’ of table tennis etc?

ITTF have the rights to the players in the sport of table tennis, period.

There needs to be TOTAL rebellion by the players.
AND there needs to be an ALTERNATIVE for the players to move to.

i don't think one can have an alternative international, hence I said domestic structure/clubs etc for them to alternate too.
players are starting to rebel, so it is good.
Many are discused and even the German players are talking about how bad it is, during interviews.
before you don't hear much criticism from European or any players.

It’s interesting that darts has been mentioned. Once upon a time, there was ONE world championship, The BDO world championships (British Darts Organisation) Then the players basically rebelled, because they were disgruntled about wages and treatment by the BDO.
A couple of the top players left and with the help of Barry Hearn the PDC (Professional Darts Corporation) was formed.
The PDC started their own tour and world championship event. Now the PDC rules the roost regarding darts.
Some players are part of the PDC set up, they may have stopped playing, but hold positions within the PDC.
AN ALTERNATIVE BECAME AVAILABLE, & THE PLAYERS FLOCKED TO THE PDC. The PDC LOOK AFTER THEIR PLAYERS BECAUSE ALL SAID AND DONE ITS THE PLAYERS COMBINED WITH GOOD BUSINESS MANAGEMENT THAT MAKE OR BREAK A SPORT.

There are a few pros/lawyers in the international stage.
I know 2 of them. One is still a player, another is a coach. both was in this world cup.
I don't think both of them will lead the fight, or maybe I am wrong and they are doing something already. let's hope so

 

[dingyibvs]

I don't really understand the "more money would fix everything" argument or the "YouTube is the solution" idea. Nothing would change for the better. Why would it?

What would happen if the sport was more popular? Perhaps a different organization would rival WTT. Eventually the new one might even win. Who is to say this new one would be better in any way? There's no incentive, as it shown that players will put up with the current situation.

Sure the new organization could be made up of very kind, fair and capable people. But it might just as well not be. And if profit was the main incentive to get into TT, then that's no guarantee for fairer treatment at all.

The promised prize money might higher, but it doesn't matter if it still doesn't get paid out...

"Yes but players would move only to this new org if they were better and more fair". Well then they act fair for a couple of years until WTT is dead. Uber pretended to be a cheaper taxi service for a couple of years until all regular taxis were dead, and now consumers pay old prices while drivers get less.

The ONLY way for players to get fair treatment is to get LEVERAGE, by UNIONIZING and laying down demands, under the threat of not playing at all.

In many sports it is normal for player organizations to negotiate basic contracts with sporting organizations. Those organizations all had their origins in dissatisfaction by athletes.

The reason is simple, WTT is bankrolled by the CNTTA right now. They won't care if players unionize. If TT grows far beyond what CNTTA's budget can cover, if TT players can become celebrities with millions of followers, then they can actually gain leverage when they unionize.

 

[Matt Hetherington]

Isn't there an athletes committee that can deal with this stuff?

Athletes Commission is an uphill struggle regardless of how opinionated or pissed off you get. Take it from someone who was opinionated and pissed off for four years on it 😂

Needs to be an independent players union which has a range of leverage all the way to mass player boycotts for events in order to really have an impact.

I am glad some players are finally starting to go public though because they very rarely do even if they have numerous complaints.

 

[IB66]

To start - Money talks and bullshit walks - Period.
How money ‘talks’ how it’s used, structured, is a different thing.

Another issue is Club or Individual.

This appears to be one of the main issues facing the top players at the moment.
Playing for a club is their bread and butter, playing the WTT individual events, with the better prize money is the nice tasty filling of the sandwich and very tempting!!
When the 2 are mixed, then there’s bound to be conflict, a choice has to be made by the player, not the club, not the WTT.
If or When a player can earn a reasonable living (Profit - covering their overhead costs of travel accommodation etc and be paid on time!!) from playing all the WTT events that betters their current club wages, then you will see players ditching their club and just playing individual events with the chance of eating the whole sandwich, or part of, and earning more money.
If the club wages are higher than what a player could earn playing the WTT event , then the WTT events will get ditched by the player.

Tennis and Golf stars are usually a member of a club, but don’t necessarily play matches for that club, the club is more than happy to have a Pro associated with them, or the player to be a product of the club‘s junior section etc

Is there a feasible solution between Club and Individual? Probably but this is going to need flexibility by the clubs and WTT, I can see clubs being more likely to be flexible but not the WTT / ITTF which is sad 😔

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

To start - Money talks and bullshit walks - Period.
How money ‘talks’ how it’s used, structured, is a different thing.

Another issue is Club or Individual.

This appears to be one of the main issues facing the top players at the moment.
Playing for a club is their bread and butter, playing the WTT individual events, with the better prize money is the nice tasty filling of the sandwich and very tempting!!
When the 2 are mixed, then there’s bound to be conflict, a choice has to be made by the player, not the club, not the WTT.

let me curve this back to you.
because you need WR to get into top clubs/leagues, not the other way around. Unless you are from that country and grew up in that club system.
Do you think Feng or Kao can get into Germany without being in the WR100?
once you get into WR50, you signed a contract with WTT giving away your rights (we here talking about the rights are unfair, and that needs to be fixed, so there is no more forcing of participation)

If or When a player can earn a reasonable living (Profit - covering their overhead costs of travel accommodation etc and be paid on time!!) from playing all the WTT events that betters their current club wages, then you will see players ditching their club and just playing individual events with the chance of eating the whole sandwich, or part of, and earning more money.
If the club wages are higher than what a player could earn playing the WTT event , then the WTT events will get ditched by the player.

since TT has no money internationally, what is 150k USD that FZD made as world highest earner? the players have no choice but to do everything.
WTT doesn't like it when Pros don't pitch - as they loosing revenue, so that is what we have today - forcing players to pitch and having more and more of these compulsory events.
I also think these "changes" of system/play, is it for table tennis, or is it for revenue.
I think revenue, as if it is for table tennis, they would pilot it somewhere unknown first. But they choose 2 back to back world cups, in an Olympic year, that is very anti table tennis to me.

Tennis and Golf stars are usually a member of a club, but don’t necessarily play matches for that club, the club is more than happy to have a Pro associated with them, or the player to be a product of the club‘s junior section etc

Is there a feasible solution between Club and Individual? Probably but this is going to need flexibility by the clubs and WTT, I can see clubs being more likely to be flexible but not the WTT / ITTF which is sad 😔

Clubs are the ones loosing out, the player are loosing out too, only WTT is the winner... So I agree it is sad.
and that is why the players are talking up now.
I don't think the clubs will talk up and I don't think the MA will talk up.