Ma Long

[MDanielCRO]

And, the last time they went head to head in a World Tour tournament, Zhang Jike spanked Ma Long 4-1 losing only the opening game. And everyone knows that Zhang Jike is a notoriously slow starter in matches.

Okay you said everything well, but if you watch Kuwait Open again, you can see that Zhang Jike didn't play anything special, Ma Long just wasn't on his usual level in short game and he lost many stupid points. But If they face each other now in any competiton, I would bet on Ma Long. Ma Long still has time to win a Grand Slam, you see that Wang Hao is in 30's and he is playing on same level as he was when he was in ML's years. I beliave in Ma Long, he has so much motivation, he is working so hard, he has everything he needs to be champion, and hopefully he has solved problems in head.
Table tennis future will be so interesting, and chinese dominance is getting larger and larger, soon there will be all chinese players in top 10, sad but true..

 

[MDanielCRO]

And they are so cute

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Okay you said everything well, but if you watch Kuwait Open again, you can see that Zhang Jike didn't play anything special, Ma Long just wasn't on his usual level in short game and he lost many stupid points. But If they face each other now in any competiton, I would bet on Ma Long. Ma Long still has time to win a Grand Slam, you see that Wang Hao is in 30's and he is playing on same level as he was when he was in ML's years. I beliave in Ma Long, he has so much motivation, he is working so hard, he has everything he needs to be champion, and hopefully he has solved problems in head.
Table tennis future will be so interesting, and chinese dominance is getting larger and larger, soon there will be all chinese players in top 10, sad but true..

China could already have all 10 of the top spots. They don't want that. There are a lot of players who they do not let play in international competitions who are very good.

I think short game is ML's weakness, especially short reverse spin serves to his forehand. And I think Zhang Jike knows what to do to beat him. And if you watch that match in Kuwait open, every so often, ZJK purposely lets ML take the first attack and then he does a very little all elbow stroke forehand counter loop and ML was not ready for it because it had all ML's power coming right back at him before he even reset from his attack. I am not sure, but I think ZJK may know what to do with ML at this point. He just has to have his head screwed on straight to win. Which he seems to do in big events. And ML seems to do the opposite in big events. Unfortunately that is the case. And everyone thought he had taken care of all that stuff before the 2013 WTTC and then Wang Hao took care of him. When Wang Hao took care of ML, everyone said it was nerves. But it was not nerves. It was short game. WH beat ML with a superior short game. When WH stopped doing the tactics that that mess ML up in games 4 and 5 of WTTC, ML played very well. Then in game 6 still up 3-2, WH used short game tactics that ML has trouble with again and ML lost big.

I do hope he is past all that. But I have heard all this too many times only to see ML fall to the same tactics over and over and only to hear ML fans complain about his nerves. It is not simply his nerves. He does fall apart when someone capitalizes on one of his weaknesses. He does not fight if someone finds out how to capitalize on one of those weaknesses. He falls apart. But, he has weaknesses that can be capitalized on.

As Liu Gouliang said it, ML is great if he can come out and do what he wants in the first few games and dominate an opponent. But as a match goes on he gets less and less creative and more and more predictable in his game tactics. That is a huge problem, because the top players can adjust to a predictable game plan quite easily. And if he is better at winning when he is ahead, and not so good at coming back when someone gets to him that is also a major weakness.

But it is interesting, when the pressure of winning the 2011 WTTC was off for him, for a good 6-8 months he played amazing in all those little tournaments and now that the pressure of winning the 2013 WTTC is gone he is playing great again. He really was not playing so well in the whole lead up to the WTTC. And this is right about the same time he started playing well after the 2011 WTTC as well. By August 2011, Ma Long was on Fire. In August this year, after he knows he cannot win the WTTC this year again, he is back to being on Fire.

When they really care, I believe ZJK and WH know what to do to nullify ML's power.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Okay you said everything well, but if you watch Kuwait Open again, you can see that Zhang Jike didn't play anything special,

An afterthought: I am surprised you don't see the art and skill of the short game that ZJK uses on ML to get him out of his game in that match. That is high level game tactics that nullify the effectiveness of ML's forehand and his opening attack.

 

[craniumburn]

right on the button carl...excellent short game is what undid ma long's game and only wang hao has pulled it off. before the olympics I thought ma long was unbeatable, with his excellent attacking game and superb footwork..but wang hao knows how to counter them. winning once is luck but winning twice and in the same prestigious tournament....thats tactics

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

right on the button carl...excellent short game is what undid ma long's game and only wang hao has pulled it off. before the olympics I thought ma long was unbeatable, with his excellent attacking game and superb footwork..but wang hao knows how to counter them. winning once is luck but winning twice and in the same prestigious tournament....thats tactics

Yep. One addition, I think Wang Hao took Ma Long out in the semifinals of the 2009 WTTC too. 3x. But in 2009 he did not need as much of the short game tactics to control Ma Long.

 

[khuonglt]

Yep. One addition, I think Wang Hao took Ma Long out in the semifinals of the 2009 WTTC too. 3x. But in 2009 he did not need as much of the short game tactics to control Ma Long.

@UpSideDownCarl: If Wang Hao can use tactics to beat Ma Long in 3 WTTC. Why Ma Long can beat Wang Hao in Asian Games 2010 , German Open 2010, where were tactics???. Anh just after WTTC 2011, why Ma Long can beat Wang Hao 4-0 easy again in Swedish Open 2011 (where were short game tactics???). And more, After WTTC 2013, Ma Long can beat Wang Hao 4-0 easy again in China Open 2013 and 4-2 in Chinese National Games ( where were short game tactics???)...

Don't tell me that because of Wang Hao didn't have motivation. Indeed Wang Hao's motivation was very big (Wang Hao: A Victory In Changchun Is The Best Wedding Gift, http://tabletennista.com/2013/6/wang-hao-a-victory-in-changchun-is-the-bes/). So i think at that hight level of table tennis, they all have a solution for whatever tactics. The matter is how to get out the pressure in his head to do the solution well. If you watch the match between ML&WH in China Open 2013, Wang Hao played at his hometown, was in pressure, certainly no Ma Long, so Wang Hao he played very badly.

So i think Ma Long's weakness is his mental, if he can overcome it, he can beat any player.

 

[Alborz]

@UpSideDownCarl: If Wang Hao can use tactics to beat Ma Long in 3 WTTC. Why Ma Long can beat Wang Hao in Asian Games 2010 , German Open 2010, where were tactics???. Anh just after WTTC 2011, why Ma Long can beat Wang Hao 4-0 easy again in Swedish Open 2011 (where were short game tactics???). And more, After WTTC 2013, Ma Long can beat Wang Hao 4-0 easy again in China Open 2013 and 4-2 in Chinese National Games ( where were short game tactics???)...

Don't tell me that because of Wang Hao didn't have motivation. Indeed Wang Hao's motivation was very big (Wang Hao: A Victory In Changchun Is The Best Wedding Gift, http://tabletennista.com/2013/6/wang-hao-a-victory-in-changchun-is-the-bes/). So i think at that hight level of table tennis, they all have a solution for whatever tactics. The matter is how to get out the pressure in his head to do the solution well. If you watch the match between ML&WH in China Open 2013, Wang Hao played at his hometown, was in pressure, certainly no Ma Long, so Wang Hao he played very badly.

So i think Ma Long's weakness is his mental, if he can overcome it, he can beat any player.

Wang Hao doesn't want to use that tactics every time because it takes so much work and energy, and Ma Long can find good tactics against Wang Hao's tactics.
If Wang Hao says a victory in Changchun is the best wedding gift that doesn't mean he is so motivated. Just look at the final of China open, Wang Hao is not motivated all. In all of matches that he lost to Ma Long he was not so motivated except of 2010 Asian Games and 2013 Chinese National Games. Wang Hao lost to Ma Long in 2013 Chinese National Games because he doesn't have enough training due to his wedding.

Ma Long's problem is 20% mentally and 80% technical. And he can not beat everyone when he is not under pressure. He can not beat Zhang Jike. Zhang Jike used that tactics that Wang Hao used in the WTTC against Ma long and beat him 4-1 in final of 2013 Kuwait open. Before that match Ma Long beat Zhang Jike in every match because Zhang Jike doesn't know the right tactics. But now he knows what to do against Ma long.

 

[khuonglt]

Wang Hao doesn't want to use that tactics every time because it takes so much work and energy, and Ma Long can find good tactics against Wang Hao's tactics.
If Wang Hao says a victory in Changchun is the best wedding gift that doesn't mean he is so motivated. Just look at the final of China open, Wang Hao is not motivated all. In all of matches that he lost to Ma Long he was not so motivated except of 2010 Asian Games and 2013 Chinese National Games. Wang Hao lost to Ma Long in 2013 Chinese National Games because he doesn't have enough training due to his wedding.

Ma Long's problem is 20% mentally and 80% technical. And he can not beat everyone when he is not under pressure. He can not beat Zhang Jike. Zhang Jike used that tactics that Wang Hao used in the WTTC against Ma long and beat him 4-1 in final of 2013 Kuwait open. Before that match Ma Long beat Zhang Jike in every match because Zhang Jike doesn't know the right tactics. But now he knows what to do against Ma long.

Please don't tell about short game tactics again and again. It is not a secret so that Wang Hao just used in the important competition, and until 2013 Kuwait Open Zhang Jike just has found out. It was used naturally when you play against a good forehand player. You known, i known, and every player known it.

In fact, Wang Hao used these tactics in every match againts Ma Long, but just some matches get a good result, mostly in WTTC. If you look again at the final of Asian Gams 2010, Wang Hao used these tactics through all the match but he still losen. Every his serve were very low, short ball to Ma Long's forehand or midle of the court, but in a good day, Ma Long can flick or push back very effectively. So the short games is not right tactics for Wang Hao or Zhang Jike to beat Ma Long.

If Ma Long's weakness is not his mental, it neither the short games. In fact, he is best player in returning a serve.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. One fact remains, Ma Long has not even gotten to the finals of the WTTC yet.

 

[khuonglt]

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. One fact remains, Ma Long has not even gotten to the finals of the WTTC yet.

Yes, it is truth. But it was not the matter which we have discussed. The matter is why he can not get there .

 

[Alborz]

Please don't tell about short game tactics again and again. It is not a secret so that Wang Hao just used in the important competition, and until 2013 Kuwait Open Zhang Jike just has found out. It was used naturally when you play against a good forehand player. You known, i known, and every player known it.

In fact, Wang Hao used these tactics in every match againts Ma Long, but just some matches get a good result, mostly in WTTC. If you look again at the final of Asian Gams 2010, Wang Hao used these tactics through all the match but he still losen. Every his serve were very low, short ball to Ma Long's forehand or midle of the court, but in a good day, Ma Long can flick or push back very effectively. So the short games is not right tactics for Wang Hao or Zhang Jike to beat Ma Long.

If Ma Long's weakness is not his mental, it neither the short games. In fact, he is best player in returning a serve.

Just look at matches before 2013 Kuwait Open between Zhang Jike and Ma long. Zhang Jike was serving to anywhere but is final of 2013 Kuwait Open he served 90% short in Ma Long's forehand and won the match.

Wang Hao's loss in 2010 Asian Games was because Ma Long was on fire not because that tactics doesn't work. Clearly Wang Hao has lack of motivation in pro tours and that is why he loss to Ma Long not because that tactics doesn't work.

Ma Long is not the best in returning serves. He doesn't use flick usually and so many of his pushes goes long. Zhang Jike (or Wang Hao) is the best in returning serves. His pushes are very low, very short and he is flick 80% of serves.

 

[craniumburn]

by the way who was the player responsible for ma long never reaching the finals of wttc and olympics?

 

[Tricon7]

In many ways ML reminds of of the great tennis player Ivan Lendl who always seemed to choke at the big Grand Slam tournaments earlier in his career. After losing in the finals too many times to count, he finally won the French Open, then the dam burst and he won a slew of other Grand Slams. Maybe ML can do the same. I think he needs just one big tournament win (i.e. a World's singles title, World Cup, or gold medal) to really start raking them in.

 

[Alborz]

In many ways ML reminds of of the great tennis player Ivan Lendl who always seemed to choke at the big Grand Slam tournaments earlier in his career. After losing in the finals too many times to count, he finally won the French Open, then the dam burst and he won a slew of other Grand Slams. Maybe ML can do the same. I think he needs just one big tournament win (i.e. a World's singles title, World Cup, or gold medal) to really start raking them in.

He has won World Cup in 2012. He will win a major tournament if Zhang Jike is not in the competition.

 

[bricephan]

come on Zhang Jike and Wang Hao fans, Ma Long is not a kid or youngster of table tennis, he is the BEAST of China team and has promoted to be in main squad since 17 yo (or 16??). If you think your tactics is way better than his to realize what Wang Hao and Zhang Jike used to beat Ma Long in major tourneys and he COULD NOT see it, that must be a dumb joke.. In China league, any top players still can lose against another so often, including WH, XX or ZJK, but NOT ML. Do you think the whole China Table Tennis Top players can't realize what is the most effective tactics to deal with ML, why still cannot take him down??

In my opinion, ML got the most consistent forehand topspin in the world. Hence, to deal with him, any players, if possible, have to use their best short game (even if they ain't so good at it as WH and ZJK are). However, Ma Long, of course, is not too naive to be able to realize what his opponents are using, and he definitely still can launch his game no matter what, by BH or FH flicks or whatever somebody mentioned above...

I just can agree the weakness of ML's mental, as everybody sees that but not WH and ZJK's fans When he or any players cannot overcome the pressure, he can't do anything to launch his game.

 

[Alborz]

come on Zhang Jike and Wang Hao fans, Ma Long is not a kid or youngster of table tennis, he is the BEAST of China team and has promoted to be in main squad since 17 yo (or 16??). If you think your tactics is way better than his to realize what Wang Hao and Zhang Jike used to beat Ma Long in major tourneys and he COULD NOT see it, that must be a dumb joke.. In China league, any top players still can lose against another so often, including WH, XX or ZJK, but NOT ML. Do you think the whole China Table Tennis Top players can't realize what is the most effective tactics to deal with ML, why still cannot take him down??

In my opinion, ML got the most consistent forehand topspin in the world. Hence, to deal with him, any players, if possible, have to use their best short game (even if they ain't so good at it as WH and ZJK are). However, Ma Long, of course, is not too naive to be able to realize what his opponents are using, and he definitely still can launch his game no matter what, by BH or FH flicks or whatever somebody mentioned above...

I just can agree the weakness of ML's mental, as everybody sees that but not WH and ZJK's fans When he or any players cannot overcome the pressure, he can't do anything to launch his game.

Ma Long can see the tactics that Wang Hao and Zhang Jike are using and he surely have some ideas to against those tactic but his ideas doesn't work as good as Wang Hao and Zhang Jike's tactics.
Other Chinese players can't beat Ma Long because they don't have the quality in their short game that Zhang Jike and Wang Hao have.

Ma Long actually was winning in semi final of 2011 WTTC. He was 2-1 in the lead in games and 10:9 in the fourth game and Wang Hao win a point with a really PIG edge ball and destroyed the mentality of Ma long. In the next games Wang Hao won four five points with edge balls or net balls. If Ma Long was mentally strong he may still win the match but unfortunately he wasn't

 

[khuonglt]

Just look at matches before 2013 Kuwait Open between Zhang Jike and Ma long. Zhang Jike was serving to anywhere but is final of 2013 Kuwait Open he served 90% short in Ma Long's forehand and won the match.

Wang Hao's loss in 2010 Asian Games was because Ma Long was on fire not because that tactics doesn't work. Clearly Wang Hao has lack of motivation in pro tours and that is why he loss to Ma Long not because that tactics doesn't work.

Ma Long is not the best in returning serves. He doesn't use flick usually and so many of his pushes goes long. Zhang Jike (or Wang Hao) is the best in returning serves. His pushes are very low, very short and he is flick 80% of serves.

If you think Zhang Jike beat Ma Long by using short games, you are totally wrong. Zhang Jike can beat Ma Long in 2012 Slovenia Open without using short games. In general, the matches between ZJ&ML are 50-50, depend on the amount of traning, psychology,... but not tactics.

Talk more about short games Zhang Jike usually used recently. In my opinion, that because he lack of seft-confident in his super backhand. In the recent 2013 China Super League, the match against Xu Chenhao, 90% his serves were short serves to Xhu Chenhao' forehand, but he was still loss. Look back at the final of 2012 Asian Championship. In the first three games, Zhang served half-long to Ma Long's backhand. Because he was very seft-confident in his backhand, so he wanted to put the match into a backhand to backhand rallies immediately, but he was failure. So in the 4th games, when he lack of seft-confident because of down 0-3, he tried some short serves to Ma Long's forehand but it didn't work. This was the first time i saw Zhang's mental destroyed, so that he didn't shakehand to Ma Long at end of the match.

There was an interesting thing. Ma Long usually use short serves in the match agains Zhang Jike, that because Zhang's backhand flick is so good and Ma don't have any options that better than short serve to Zhang' forehand. In that match, 99% his serves were short to Zhang's forehand, but i think that is not cause for his 4-0 victory.

 

[Alborz]

If you think Zhang Jike beat Ma Long by using short games, you are totally wrong. Zhang Jike can beat Ma Long in 2012 Slovenia Open without using short games. In general, the matches between ZJ&ML are 50-50, depend on the amount of traning, psychology,... but not tactics.

Talk more about short games Zhang Jike usually used recently. In my opinion, that because he lack of seft-confident in his super backhand. In the recent 2013 China Super League, the match against Xu Chenhao, 90% his serves were short serves to Xhu Chenhao' forehand, but he was still loss. Look back at the final of 2012 Asian Championship. In the first three games, Zhang served half-long to Ma Long's backhand. Because he was very seft-confident in his backhand, so he wanted to put the match into a backhand to backhand rallies immediately, but he was failure. So in the 4th games, when he lack of seft-confident because of down 0-3, he tried some short serves to Ma Long's forehand but it didn't work. This was the first time i saw Zhang's mental destroyed, so that he didn't shakehand to Ma Long at end of the match.

There was an interesting thing. Ma Long usually use short serves in the match agains Zhang Jike, that because Zhang's backhand flick is so good and Ma don't have any options that better than short serve to Zhang' forehand. In that match, 99% his serves were short to Zhang's forehand, but i think that is not cause for his 4-0 victory.

In 2012 Slovenian Open Zhang Jike was serving 75% to Ma Long's Forehand and 25% in his Backhand. He was using those tactics most of the time but not all of the time and he won the match 4:3. I believe if Zhang Jike use that tactics all the time he can beat Ma Long 4-1 or 4-0 like what he has done in final 2013 Kuwait Open final.

The matches between Zhang Jike and Ma Long are mostly depends on tactics not their amount of training. Training is important but not as much as tactics. In 2012 Chinese Super League Zhang Jike has lack of training in the first rounds and he played against Ma Long in the first round. Even with lack of training he won the match 3:2 because of using that tactics. Ma Long's weakness is that tactics but it doesn't mean he can not win against those tactics. He can if he is on fire and Zhang Jike is not motivated.

 

[khuonglt]

In 2012 Slovenian Open Zhang Jike was serving 75% to Ma Long's Forehand and 25% in his Backhand. He was using those tactics most of the time but not all of the time and he won the match 4:3. I believe if Zhang Jike use that tactics all the time he can beat Ma Long 4-1 or 4-0 like what he has done in final 2013 Kuwait Open final.

The matches between Zhang Jike and Ma Long are mostly depends on tactics not their amount of training. Training is important but not as much as tactics. In 2012 Chinese Super League Zhang Jike has lack of training in the first rounds and he played against Ma Long in the first round. Even with lack of training he won the match 3:2 because of using that tactics. Ma Long's weakness is that tactics but it doesn't mean he can not win against those tactics. He can if he is on fire and Zhang Jike is not motivated.

In the previous post, you said until 2013 Kuwait Open, Zhang Jike just has found out the tactics to beat Ma Long. But in this post, you said Zhang Jike had found out these tactics before, in 2012 Chinese Super League. Which is true?

If the later is true, i wonder how Zhang Jike do not use these tactics in the match of China Trial for 2013 WTTC, which he was loss. I don't think Zhang Jike was so stupid!