Match tactics

[NextLevel]

I think I saw his movement served short to his fh. And then because he was out of position I didn't know where he was gonna push or what he was gonna do with that ball. Maybe I was expecting a short ball back either way I def didn't expect the long ball for some reason.

Idk how I looped that one so well. Nice curve and on to the white line. Because he likes to go back he could still get it back on to the table with bad quality. So I kept attacking again with the bh, even though If I had been not so lazy with my legs I should take it with my fh instead. Attacking his wide bh so I get a more predictable ball back to my bh.

3. Uhh yeah that point. I think it was a good rally in terms of min/max. Just doing enough to keep the initiative and coming back from defense and get close to the table again. Funny thing about that rally was I saw him running back and I didn't feel confident ending the point with a forearm whipe over the table. So I dropped the ball back on his side twice and then I used a fake attacking motion to disturb him. I got a better ball back to attack. I think this point hurt his confidence and boosted mine a lot.


4. Yeah good previous point meant I can confidently attack again. My head is free. You can clearly see how good and thick I hit that ball on the receive hand is not shaking aswell so full confidence. Good jump out even with the legs. Idk why my motion needed to go so much upwards (the ball landed well on the other side though) Then I have no fkin clue I guess I am just not used to topspin that often in a row since agianst anyone else in training point would have been over already. No explanation why I stopped. I def agree with that red marked statement. I don't know how to get it out of the system.

5. That hurt my confidence a lot. It's a ball I practised the most in training. Missing that ball fucked me up big time.
6. That's a serve that netted me a lot of points if I got it right and long. Not my favourite serve but it keeps guessing him instead of autopiloting his receive (then he gets too comfortable)

bad rallys 2 cheap points. Thank god I put a lot of backspin on my bh push atleast.

9. Yeah idk. One of the balls I practised the most lately.
10. Ok this time I have to say it was a smart choice given the game situation. Making him come closer to the table. Giving me a worse ball that I can attack better. I also liked how I positioned myself better and "ran" to the left side after I put the ball to his backhand. Otherwise I wouldnt have continued attacking with my fh.

11. Wow I guess because I am up in score I use my backhand topspin receive and also because it drifts long and slower. The next ball dips in front of me and I jumped too much back.

Here a question on how to deal with this situation. One thing is I opened the rally with my return. But he did a soft block. I guess if the ball comes shorter I have to jump into the ball and loop that way instead of giving it up because I can't loop from the position I jumped back to?



13. Idk why but my backhand confidence seem to have come back. His block dips down shorter again. I don't feel confident looping that ball even though in training I could loop you that ball safe with spin but with slow speed.
This is definetly a big problem that I have to work on in the next practise sessions. This needs to be eliminated. This same problem has occured many many times over the course of the game. Agree that I should have attacked the first block. 2nd Block was faster when i already decided for the stroke. This is also the problem that I tried to fix with a softer rubber is that I thought I need to hit this hard to activate the sponge to give the ball topspin. If I go for a thinner contact I was afraid of looping it too much up. This ball would have cleared the net with a softer rubber in my opinion
14. To my defense this push of his was more active and faster than any pushes he did in this game. I was caught by surprise. And even without the surprise element I am not confident in looping that in this match only in training. I don't have any players pushing like that in training to be able to train that shot properly. I prefer looping slower pushes. Also one of the rare moments where I saw the gap in his fh so that was a good parallel block.

15. I do start my stroke low enough. But I can't tell you what went wrong here. This is my problem with the rubber feedback on balls like that. It doesn't tell me what went wrong here. Because in Slowmo you can clearly see I go up. Maybe because I didn't use my forearm snap. I also don't really want to accelerate more than that. I want to put it on the table safely.
16. Yep very spinny opening

17. Service was so bad that it was good again xD
18. This same scenario occured earlier in the match. I don't know when but earlier in the set I didn't expect the long push and did my "scoop fh" I will call it this way now - Here I have the confidence and just loop without thinking about technique or anything but with confidence. Do a safe recovery shot with the bh and I go longline. My best bh shot in the game. -> So in hindsight this seems to be an anticipation and mental problem. Instead of being a technical problem/unknown scenario problem. I just don't do it...

I am very focused playing the ball very controlled waiting for a good opportunity but he makes a mistake before It gets to that point. Not proud but not too unhappy either.

Again I don't remember serving short topspin. Maybe you meant start serving more short topspin.
Agree with the others. I guess telling me to stand half a step closer after I open up would be a helpful advice in that moment. It would reduce the amount of soft blocks ending up shorter on my fh side that I scoop. Not sure if I would be able to do it in the game immediately.

Thank you it was fun doing this. Doing this in writing style instead of talking also means that I absorbed this discussion better in my head and got more aware of my mistakes and what to watch out for in my future games.

Not sure what the contradiction is. Shot selection depends on your ability to make the shot. But winning points is not everything, you realize this. When someone serves long, the correct thing is to play a topspin. If it is a long serve, most players with good backhand should have practice attacking long serves with the backhand enough that they feel comfortable spinning the ball. What I want to do in that situation is spin the ball heavy (not fast, but heavy) and let the opponent prove they can counterloop it or block it. If they can, then I look for other options or placements. But if they can't, I shut down the long serve and they now have to try to serve shorter and that puts them under pressure for the rest of the match especially if they are struggling to keep the serve short.

When you say you didn't want to snap etc., all of this comes down to reading the ball and picking the right contact point. You almost always need to snap on a loop, the only thing I would change is the size/height of the follow through. But these are all technical details that you can work out when you always swing fast, swinging fast is the key, then the next thing is figuring out how to adapt to the ball. But slow swings to keep the ball on the table are not the way to get better faster. There should always be some acceleration, it all depends on where on the ball you need to touch and how you need to finish the stroke after that.

Your internal dialog is just based on lack of experience. Try to use the same stroke over and over again to adapt to the ball. Stop trying to put the ball on the table, just swing at the ball and see what it does. Then try to understand what changes to the swing and contact point change what the ball does in a way that gives you a framework for always swinging fast. You can swing relatively fast at any ball, it is just about how you swing and where you contact the ball to produce a certain result. And the mistake just gives you information.

 

[Zezima]

Game 4:
1. He serves into the table.
2. He serves short, decent short push even it pops up the ball, he attacks into your forehand, you block and win the point. At this point, your coach would be cheering you on so that the opponent feels the pressure lol.

I wonder if I should get more loud myself. Not harimoto style loud but a simple shout in front of me to keep pushing. I feel like I am too quiet and start to play energysaving mode instead of keep pushing to end the game asap. I tend to play as if I have to spare my energy for the next 5 games aswell.

3. You serve long, he pushes, you open with your forehand, he blocks and you do a forehand block. The most generous explanation for this is that you don't have someone to sustain blocking and attacking practice for you at your club, but what you just did is terrible. The block is slow into the middle of his backhand and he pivots and kills it with his forehand.
4. You serve, he pushes, you push (broken record, I know), He attacks with his forehand but you are lucky on your last block that the ball kicks on hin and he edges the ball,

3. I agree I will play with good blocking players on Monday. Hopefully its gonna be a good session and if so we can do it more frequently.
What shot should I do if I decide to not loop it like in this case? I feel like most people struggle looping from the middle. Some other times I lob it into their backhand to win myself time. I got no other solution "Plan B"

4. Haha I know. Yep I think I hit it with the edge. Not sure why it would make the ball kick still. Honestly at this point it feels like I let him start attack and I default to blocking. So attack vs block. And my blocking abilities could withstand most of his fh topspins. But thats still 60-40% in favor of him.

5. He serves, you push he attacks, you block, he is surprised by your block so you block, but then you attack harder than comfortably do and miss the ball into the net.
6. He serves, you push not quite short but not with much power and he misses the ball because the ball is not coming out the way he would prefer.

5. Yep I am happy with my blocks. Feels really good with d09c very direct. And this is also the next big thing that never happens in training really but in matches only. I don't know why I fuck up myself by going for this fh loop where I am rushing and also very uncontrolled. I understand if I do it against a higher ball like I did in earlier sets. But here I have to to just loop without the goal being to end the rally. I always loop in a way to kill the ball. As if I am super hard under pressure to loop as fast as possible.
6. Yeah it was more like half long barely. I planned to drop it shorter though.

4-2 you're up.

7. The next point you start out somewhat well since he pushed the long serve and you attacked but attacked predictably to the forehand, blocked the next ball to his middle (and he couldn't get into position to attack so he fished up a ball you topspinned with the forehand), he blocked the ball back.

At this point, just about any trained player would have turned side on to the table ready to use a forehand to attack any ball that came back. However you are still in a stance that is goakeeper and when he blocks the ball to your forehand, you play a backhand blook and then he drives the ball to your forehand and wins the point. This is what @RefereeNumber2 means about your footwork and anticipation issues.

7. Ok yeah here I see how bad I am in terms of placement. I am mentally not there yet that I think about placement. I am overwhelmed with just looping no matter where. Diagonal being the safest. But my teammate told me the same. That its too predictable where I loop. Also at 7:34 I randomly see how he deals with that same ball I am struggeling the entire game. Instead of scooping the ball back like I do he makes a little step forwards and loops it with lots of spin.
Yeah if I take that ball with my backhand I have to send that ball to the sides if I am not gonna keep hitting it with topspin. Like I did with my first backhand. But same balls got replayed but this time I thought soft blocking to the fh was better this time. Big tactical mistake(placement) on top of shot selection and also position to the table. As you said I had to take that one with the fh.

8. You serve backspin, he pushes long, you open with your backhand into the net. As a general rule, it is hard to attack long balls pushed back off long serves with the backhand because the backhand has a narrow timing zone. So as much as possible if you serve long and expect a long return, the backhand stroke you need to use is usually bigger than the one you usually train and the forehand stroke is usually easier for most players to attack the ball with because you can adjust the window if the ball isn't perfectly on your stroke path. Think about this as the reason why most players play choppers with their forehands and not their backhands. I am a backhand player and I would have pivoted for that ball most of the time. Long pushes of shorter serves are easier to attack with the backhands because the timing is not as unpredictable and the spins tend to be less heavy.

This I am not so sure if I understood it corrrectly. If you pause at 7:42 the way I stand into the ball and my racket being under the table it all looks good on the preparation. What seems to happen is that I am afraid to loop long and my motion goes sideways. -> not confident into my rubber. In training I can loop long backspin eventually but it's hard to get in rythm in a match setting where I also mainly pushed..

9. Serve, push, push, push, he opens and gets a Double Happiness net edge. Again those are long balls, you can open on them.

10. He serves long, you open great with the backhand, he bblocks, you use the forehand, he blocks and jams you and use hit the backhand long. Good offense but once you use the forehand, try to keep using the forehand.

10. Funny I think this is the only time he forced me to loop with the backhand.

Good offense but once you use the forehand, try to keep using the forehand.

Agree here I valued covering the table more than keep attacking with the fh. I guess it's easier for a more fh oriented player to think that way. Because I know I can loop both sided I care more about covering the table. One of the advantages if you start as a very heavy fh oriented player. If I knew I have no backhand its obviously gonna be easier to think to position myself that way where I can keep using my fh I think.

11. He misreads your topspin serve. Very underused serve.

12. Serve long into the heart of his forehand. He opens, you block. he drives the forehand and wins the point. Serving long like that is just a bad habit and it will get punished more and more as you play better players. You have good defense. but not that good.

11. Yep I know :/ I only used it once per set as a surprise
12. This is a serve I have to admit I didn't practise lately. But I have been working on in the trainingscamp in germany. The goal of this serve is to make the ball land as close as possible to the wite line. But I chickened out and served it too short. As you can see he barely reacted to it. So I am 100% confident if I had served it just a tad longer he would have missed that return since he would be out of balance.

7-5 he is up.

13. He serves long to the forehand, You push, he loops twice to the forehand and you block twice, somehow the second block lands shorter and he waits for it and then decides to do a funky shot. You backhand topspin the shot and then he borrows the pace to continue his attack. Again, you really should have given more of the table to your forehand once you saw him getting ready to do the funky shot and then stepped in. That said, you defend his attack well and get another funky shot with which you correctly decide to use your forehand but again predictably go to the forehand, only this time, it is down the line and there isn't enough table so you miss wide. You get some credit for using for your forehand but not for missing and not for not using your forehand earlier. Even if we are not trained, there are situations where you need to get the forehand in.

13. Ye this was also a very critical point to catch up and also building back confidence. He could safely breath and play confidently with 3 points up

14. He serves, you push short (yay!) he pushes long and again you push long (the story of the match) and then he opens and misses.

14. Yeah you can see me reacting to it. I wanted to pivot instead of pushing back with my bh. I don't blame myself for the 2nd push since I would have needed to bh loop without much time which I am not comfortable doing so.

15. You serve a ball that lacks backspin and he pushes and pops the ball up long with some float, and then you push the ball back (what is the point of getting these opportunities if you won't take them) , then he opens with the forehand, follows with another forehand and wins the point.

16. You serve long to the forehand, he opens, you block and then he misses. You win this point but this is not good enough. He knows that was his point hence his reaction.

15. This should be the same side topspin I served earlier where you said underused serve. Only this time it was worse for me because his sidechop went just to the white line and took me by surprise.
16. Here I did a bit backspin block. I think that caught him offguard. Yeah he received my serve really well. Shouldn't have served with backhand atleast not long.

17. He serves long float, you push the ball off the table.

18. He serves long backspin, you push the ball into the net.

*puke*

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I actually have a different suggestion. I think you should not try to play an active offensive game. Punishing repeated long pushes, sure, that's a must, but I don't see you as a true offensive player. You mentioned you have been playing for 9 years, hard to change after that much time given how rigid you seem to be. You are clearly pretty tall and also very slow on your feet. Get better at high quality pushes and then the first countertopspin or aggressively blocking the first loop so you can turn defense into offense. Get better at playing the angles. You can go far with a style like this, there are even world class players that generally play that way. More realistic for you probably.

 

[NextLevel]

I actually have a different suggestion. I think you should not try to play an active offensive game. Punishing repeated long pushes, sure, that's a must, but I don't see you as a true offensive player. You mentioned you have been playing for 9 years, hard to change after that much time given how rigid you seem to be. You are clearly pretty tall and also very slow on your feet. Get better at high quality pushes and then the first countertopspin or aggressively blocking the first loop so you can turn defense into offense. Get better at playing the angles. You can go far with a style like this, there are even world class players that generally play that way. More realistic for you probably.

This is entirely legitimate as well, and I can see this in @Zezima 's game as well. I think he could get really good at this but of course, he needs the right quality of opponents to develop this style.

 

[piligrim]

I actually have a different suggestion. I think you should not try to play an active offensive game. Punishing repeated long pushes, sure, that's a must, but I don't see you as a true offensive player. You mentioned you have been playing for 9 years, hard to change after that much time given how rigid you seem to be. You are clearly pretty tall and also very slow on your feet. Get better at high quality pushes and then the first countertopspin or aggressively blocking the first loop so you can turn defense into offense. Get better at playing the angles. You can go far with a style like this, there are even world class players that generally play that way. More realistic for you probably.

Maybe short pips on bh?

 

[Zezima]

The whole game has gone backwards. He is taking advantage aggressively of your refusal to take offense on long backspin and is just setting up his forehand as best he can. You need to serve less backspin and be more aggressive on both sides. You will defend when the opportunity comes, but try to open when the opportunity is there. Stop serving long, serve short topspin if you want to get into the rally, at least there is a change he will get you attack if you do that.

Yep I agree noone told me that. And I couldn't memorize and was so much under pressure that I thought ok keep serving more backspin.

Game 5:

1. You serve long, he chops the serve because he realizes if you get a backspin ball you will give him a chance to open. This happens, but he misses the opener.

2. You serve long again, he chops the serve off the table this time.

2. I do the underused side top serve again free point

3. He serves float disguised as backspin, you push and pop up the ball, he attacks hard. You need to loop the long serves.

4. He serves lighter backspin/float, you pop the ball up, he drives through it and you defend the first attack. he follows up, you fish back the second attack, he blocks the ball because he realizes you are so far back you might not get to it, You come in to chop/scoop, he loops the ball and wins the point.

Man I am so pissed. Why did I stop pivoting here. He is taking advantage of my bh push receive clearly. I should have been more aware of this and prepare myself to pivot more.

5. You serve the reverse, he pops it up, you attack(great) to the forehand (predictable), he brings it back and you block to keep the ball in and he fishes it back again, you loop into the backhand(!) but because you pivoted, he is waiting there, he fishes it back, you block it to the forehand, he runs it down and fishes it back, you push the ball, he pushes the ball back and then you open with ypur backhand (probably the riskiest shot one can take in this situation as the backhand has a small window and you can't be sure his ball has backspin so you need to use the forehand so you can watch the ball for as long as possible) and you miss the ball long.

5. There is no way at my skillevel I could have taken that ball with my fh. If I had that skill level I would be clapping him 3-0 by miles. But my bh technique was wrong. I was too afraid of hitting into the net.

6. You serve reverse, he pushes, you push back (sigh) and pop the ball up, he attacks, you defend with a forehand block, he puts the ball back with his backhand, you play a backhand topspin, he blocks, and then you play a forehand that acts like there is a ton of topspin on the ball (there isn't ) so the ball goes into the net. That forehand needed way thicker contact and in general, you need to practice flat hitting/smashing much more. Not because you will use it but you need to understand it.

6. I actually didn't loop into the net because of that. It was just a very cramped fh where I tried to put all the energy and everything but ended up not being able to spin the ball. Idk the term for this but this has happened quite a few times. Basically I can loop at 7/10 lets say and thats my max but I am pushing for a 8/10 and entire form breaks if I want "too much"

4- 2 he is up.

7. He serves backspin long, you push, he attacks, you block, he loops hard and you miss.

change of ends.


8. He serves long backspin, you open(!), he blocks with his backhand and moves off the table, then you loop to his forehand (No, you are not supposed to loop the forehand of a player who is off the table unless his name is Liam Pitchford), he counters with his forehand and you block into the net.

Yep I took a timeout at 2-4. Probably realized it and tried to pivot my backhand.
Yeah exactly this this this!! This is what I meant by tactics. I loop so mindlessly I want to change this for real. Like especially against this type of player where he can only come back to the table with the counter fh attack.
Could have been 3-5 and me still being in the game with that confidence.

9. You serve fast and long off the table.

10. You serve an interesting and good short/half long serve, he pushes early and the ball comes long, you push back (SIGH), he attacks and misses.

9. I try to take more risks with my serves even though my hands shaky. I don't want him to take off and play too comfortable and missed sadly :/
10. It was half long no spin serve. I think I used it only once or twice this entire game. Basically this serve forces my opp to push the ball back. But since he pushed it into my bh and the pus pus I am I didn't take the initiative. Scared of looping/unforced error with the bh. And yes I can do it in training. I am just scared in the match..

11. He serves, you push shortish, he pushes long to your forehand (which is not a good move, but he probably knows his opponent) and you loop the ball into the net. You need more acceleration on your forehand with the fingers and forearm.

12. He serves long to your backhand you try to open but put the ball into the net. Your contact was way too thick for the situation in the match. You should brush that ball to the sky and if it goes off the table so be it. but even better, it should just land short on the table and let him attack it and hope you have put enough spin to mess him up.

11. I know but I am stopping myself on purpose. I am scared of doing that too fast motion that I will overdo it. So I went to the other extreme this time by being too safe and soft. This is not a technical problem but a brain/decision problem.
12. Yeah at this point Idgaf I am like just try you have nothing to lose its lost anyway. It was long and fast I didn't want to brush too much up because I thought there is not much backspin. So I just wanted to spin and use the incoming speed without adding any additional myself. Was more worried that it would fly out honestly.

13. You serve long backspin, he pushes, you open but you don't put enough arc on the ball and it nets out. Honestly, for someone who practiced hitting the ball with power on the forehand you should have spent way more time applying slow heavy topspin to the ball.

14. You serve long, he opens with the forehand (he is play his up 10-3 game), you block, he loops to your forehand, you block again, and then he tries his up 10-3 backhand and the ball goes long.

13. Again I do my fh topspin as if I try to end the rally immediately.. Also scared if I back out again that it will land in the net so i wanted to activate the sponge and hit it fast. I still didn't manage to get the contact right as in training.

15. He serves long backspin into your forehand and you whiff the serve.

====================================

1. On the whole, you need a lot of forehand and footwork drills. They don't even have to be fast. But they need to have you moving and playing forehands and repeating the forehands over at least 2/3s of the table. I have no plyometric push in my legs and I am a backhand player and yet I find the forehand more than you do - that makes no sense. I would recommend that you have someone feed you in multiball, one ball to your wide forehand, one ball to the middle, one ball to the backhand and you practice using your forehand in all three positions, jumping from one spot to the next, preparing to make the shot.

wait didn't you say that you were fh player? Ok noted that drill but won't this drill just help me looping from all positions? I think if I decide to use my fh I can loop from any position on the table. I need some decisionmaking here aswell or as you said make room for my fh more since I seem to cover the middle more with my bh instead of fh.

2. Since you are so reluctant to attack pushes, you need to serve less pure backspin as a tactical adjustment. You got a lot of pushes on your short sidespin serves (I never saw him flick a single one of them) so you are severely underusing them, at least against this opponent.

Ok whats the thought process on this? No he does not really flick unless I serve high and short obviously. Care to elaborate more why I want less backspin on my short serves against someone who pushes? What if they are as comfortable pushing no spin serves lets say?

3. For your self development, you need to practice attacking the long ball as a habit. Your defensive game will never go away, but there are players you will never have a chance to beat if you never put pressure on them.

ok yeah working on this

4. The rubber change, I don't know. It's probably a good idea if the effort of using D09c after moving off the table, especially on a Korbel, is part of what is hurting you. And your arm acceleration is probably not strong enough to consistently use d09c at the moment. But the real problem on the whole is your ability to get into position to set up your body to power your offensive shots. You don't habitually anticipate and prepare to explode into the ball. MAybe a less sticky rubber would at least let you do more with less. I would probably go to Tenergy 80 since that is what Petr Korbel uses. But I personally if I was using what you used would go with Zyre 03 in some form. But I am not sure you have the arm acceleration to use Zyre.

I think if I manage to be more relaxed when I decide to forehand topspin I get more power and spin. The more I force myself to do a hard shot the less power and spin/arc I generate. Thats a brain problem. I do think I am strong enough.
More than being strong is the mental adjustment if I compare myself to him. He just attacks relentlessly even though he did in sum way more unforced errors than I did. He just kept doing what he knows. I need this same mentality as him. Because my defense is much better than his and the fact with barely attacking myself I went into 5set game tells me a lot. Even my serve (except my bh serves) is better than his I think especially sidetopspin serves he struggled with both bh and to his fh.

No clue about tenergy 80 idk which side you mean. On my bh I seem to loop more upwards which is strange since d09c appearently has high throw anyway no? so anything lower throw would not be beenficail and would make me loop even more upwards I think. Something softer and with a high throw so I can focus on looping forwards. But I need to feel the activation of the sponge so I can go confidently forwards and not just in training would be really nice.

5. Your forehand push is awesome and I would develop it much more and add more variation to it. Not sure whether it will still be awesome with T80 but I would definitely try.

I think it's a lot of concentration and getting low and taking it early from what I have learned in online videos. I used to take it much later but recognizing its gonna be short (I try to look on the contact of his side of the table) I think without it I wouldnt have made it this close it was really important. I can also flip but I am scared that my flips are too weak and he will hammer me. Again I NEVER FLIPPED? and was scared of it this entire time...

6. Finally practice a lot of flat hitting. I think that you really need to learn how to smash. if you do, and then learn to spin out of that, it will change how thickly you contact the ball and teach you different ways of getting more pace on the ball. I think the main reason you struggle with D09c is that you try to take the ball too late. That is something that both T80 or T19 will help you with because they work better from mid distance for sure.

why better care to elaborate? I mean I didn't really loop much off the table did I? I only scooped it back. Here rubber choice doesn't matter. Like I can't even analyze right now what went wrong because I never dared to loop them..

7. When someone loops to your forehand, develop the habit if you have time of always playing a counter topspin. You need to stop blocking ten feet off the table.

I am practising this a lot aswell. idk I think in the match I only did it once right.. Maybe too much respect of my opponent and also my brain thinks blocking is a higher chance. I also tried to soft block and change the rythm so he had to move back a lot forwards and back again.

8. Stop being so afraid to miss, it is only table tennis!

Alright, good luck.

This is the most important thing that I still need to learn. I am too afraid to miss

 

[NextLevel]

Your light backspin is main reason for his light backspin.
His timing is late too.
His cutting speed is slow too.

Combine everything together, the ball isn't very spinny.

I like this kind of question.
These questions are very important.
Please ask more of these kinds of questions.

To add to this, @Zezima , it isn't necessarily bad to misread this and make a mistake. Ultimately, what the ball did when you touched it is what should tell you what happened. These kinds of mistakes are made to different degrees by players at all levels depending on the game speed and pressures they are facing. But of course, the swing speed and game reading of the top players makes this happen to them less as their spin tends to control the ball more. For someone like me, who struggles to read spin, I just take it as an opportunity to learn and adjust if I repeat the same serve and get a similar result.

 

[Nash77]

I know these words come from good place but it's not like I like playing defense or having to react to balls. I also much prefer winning my points with a good attacking shot. I am also not defensive here but feel free to give suggestions on HOW TO ACHIEVE. Like how to overcome my fear or in other words how to play more fearless.

I am trying to find that out with you all and how to fix it. It's gonna be a longer process.

I don't wish to offend you, but I do believe what you need to hear is "tough love" approach. Meaning, the harsh truth.

I'll put it boldly - stop playing like a scared *****.
You're playing like you're afraid to lose, not like you're trying to win.

I Also, like a lot of adult developing players, am guilty of that at times. But IMO you're taking it to another level. You're playing WAY too scared, against all your opponents despite of their limited skillsets. You're always looking way too timid, and play with no guts and way way too passive, for no apparent reason. It's just a game. Who care if we lose??? The only way to get better is to lose. IMO you need to sacrifice some wins in order to break that fear.

Tell yourself - I don't care if I lose the next 50 games I'll play in a row. 50 straight loses? I don't care. It doesn't matter.

What you should care about is getting better, playing with confidence, playing aggressive, using your attacking shots arsenal, DARE TO GO FO IT. put the results on the side for a few months.

You're been playing too many years to be playing so timid, IMO it's better to lose "going for it" then win playing scared based on the mistakes your opponent makes. You have a higher playing potential then your showing in your games, and IMO a big part of is bad mentality.

Caring too much, thinking too much, fearing too much - all these don't allow you to play free and aggressive enough. You have to dare to win, focus on improving and not on the result of every each ball. It's not surprising to hear you play better at practice because your mental approach is different at practice. You need to close that gap between practice and matches.

Enjoy yourself, remember it's just a game, it's not your profession, with time i think the care-free approach would help you take your game to another level. (and yes, also switch to easier rubbers, and also like I wrote you on the other thread - you need to practice with better players -it makes a huge difference).

Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it - I'm just trying to call it how I see it without sugarcoating it in hopes it will be beneficial for you to hear.

 

[NextLevel]

5. There is no way at my skillevel I could have taken that ball with my fh. If I had that skill level I would be clapping him 3-0 by miles. But my bh technique was wrong. I was too afraid of hitting into the net.

------------

This is the most important thing that I still need to learn. I am too afraid to miss

Will respond to different parts of your post in a few responses but this part is critical.

First of all, you can be beating these players 3-0. Not today, but it is quite possible. Even though you have played 9 years, some of it depends on whether you have been in the right environments. Hey, I know someone who started serious training is his early 30s broke 2200 in his 30s and beat professional players in his late 30s and very early 40s. I am not saying you are at that athletic level, but I am saying that if you get into a good training environment and learn the right things, some changes are possible if you expose yourself to the right things. But the biggest thing that will stop this is having the wrong attitude to making mistakes in the right environment because the struggles can cause you to quit early rather than continue the process.

You have more than enough skill to take that ball with your forehand. You just haven't tried it enough to think you do. If you spent more time training half long serve receives with the forehand (which I have repeatedly told you to do), you would know how to use the forearm and fingers to generate spin on most slow balls and you would play a decent topspin on that ball. One of the mistakes some players at our level make is that the focus on the speed of the topspin when playing such balls rather than the spin. In fact, spinny topspins that land short create problems for some players. All you had to do was brush the ball, get it on the table and then your forehand and offensive orientation is maintained.

 

[Zezima]

It is important to recognise that you are improving without doubt. Way better body position at the start of every point and when you are closer to the table and the ball bounces, good attacking shots, and IMO is the game you should be playing. I want you dominating the table and forcing your opponent to have to go back and play defensively. IMO, this is your game and is the game and strategy you want to play against every opponent. When you go back, you are beaten by angles and footwork.

I was going to write something long, with parts of your game, but I think it is simple. You lack confidence because you are using hard rubbers that are designed for absolute peak performance returns. Lots of people are going to go on and on about training.....You know this, I know this....everyone knows this.....But you do not have a coach and do not have access to people willing to help you in person. So none of this is going to help you.

You need confidence.

You need a different solution, as saying it doesn't make it happen...What you can control is your rubbers. Go for medium rubbers that help you play, over heavy, hard rubbers designed for peak performance that you can't achieve in a match situation. If you decide to go, for example, a T05... don't get Max because you won't be able to control it, and we will be back at where we started. Go 1.9mm, and you will have the control you want, plus the automatic spin and speed you are trying to generate. You will find that you can play more attacking shots, closer to the table, and open-ups are considerably easier than with a Hard rubber. And when you get on top of this, then you can start to think about a thicker sponge, but given your height, I very much doubt you need it.

Your strategy is very important in a game, but having confidence to play your shots is more important, as the best strategy in the world means nothing if you do not have the confidence to execute.

I agree with you but then the rubber is not right if I have to go 1,9mm I think I read that somewhere and had people talk about this with me too. I like the feeling of the ball sinking into the rubber so why go for a thinner rubber?

The problem with harder rubbers are that I don't feel the ball sinking into the rubber unless I go really hard which I mostly don't. I want that nice feeling when opening up softly aswell.

Also T19 is the more tame version of T05 for example so I can go T19 in max instead of thinner t05 who seems to be also very spin sensitiv which I don't need atm against these players who I struggle reading their serves correctly.

In training I have that confidence only because I seem to see their quality is bad and it is also enough to put the ball just back I am not forced to loop. Thats also maybe why my defensive abilities are better developed. I am not that relentless looper. I am more of a get some good blocks in challenge their topspins and once they bring a bad ball back attack. In my games there is a lot of tempo variation.

But I agree I need confidence

 

[piligrim]

I don't wish to offend you, but I do believe what you need to hear is "tough love" approach. Meaning, the harsh truth.

I'll put it boldly - stop playing like a scared *****.
You're playing like you're afraid to lose, not like you're trying to win.

I actually have same problem. Always feel tight and scared to attack

 

[Zezima]

This is all a bunch of nonsense. Not that he shouldn't change rubber or play with something softer but that the whole idea of thinking in those terms is nonsense. His arm acceleration and stroke paths are clearly lacking and he is blaming the rubber. Guys, the kid that posts his YouTube videos here uses 09c on his forehand (admittedly on Boll ALC). The main difference is that the kid is committed to close to the table and powerful play, OP is really a counterpuncher who wants to take advantage of chance opportunities. Are you telling me that OP cannot accelerate his forearm faster than the kid can?

The biggest decision the OP has to make is that he needs to decide how he wants to win and lose points. It is okay to win or lose points by pushing and defending and looking for chance opportunities. But don't blame that decision on the Li equipment. And don't blame your poor arm acceleration and bad stroke trajectory on the equipment if you cant credit your great short pushes and blocks on the equipment as well. And if you think you will play differently with a softer rubber, why waste time asking people about it, why not just buy or borrow the rubbers and use them for two months?

I started playing tournaments in 2011. When I started, I worked with a coach who drilled me but didn't teach me how to develop a system, I changed in 2012 to another coach. With him, I didn't have the kind of coaching people got. My coach, who got good as an adult, largely skipped deep footwork and stroke training and focused on backhand play, serve and third ball practice with the idea that if I got better at using these things in matches, he would over time refine them and then I would have instincts that I could apply to all kinds of situations. Just about everything was a form of adaptation. But the problem was that it never felt really good doing it because I didn't have a framework for approaching the ball (my fault, not his). Finally I worked remotely with a national team coach who helped me appreciate some things about the biomechanics and point structure of the modern game. He was the one that built into me the attack the long balls mentality. He made me realize that it was perfectly okay to lose playing a certain way and it changed my mental game completely. Practicing a lot of shots also helped me think about how to adapt misses.

Equipment is something that you ultimately adapt to. If you are not getting the right result with it, use it better. If you do not think you are physically capable of using it better, change it, but do realize there are tradeoffs. I played a guy this week with two different setups, one using 09c, the other using Zyre 03. Playing him with 09c, I just attacked the ball exclusively and relentlessly and often overpowered his cop blocks. But with Zyre03, fast swings went long or into the net so I had to slow down and time the ball much better to avoid hitting long. Also had to open the racket more and close it less because the tack of 09c was more forgiving. And these are two rubbers in the same spin class for the most part.

If he wants to continue to back off the table and play topspins from mid distance with easier wings, yes,09c is not designed for that generally. But in the end, you adapt to your equipment. Focus on what you need to do to make it work and stop acting as if a bad workman should be allowed to blame his tools.

He made me realize that it was perfectly okay to lose playing a certain way and it changed my mental game completely. Practicing a lot of shots also helped me think about how to adapt misses.

This part right here. As a solo player who got up to 1500RC in a club where there is only 1-2 1200-1300 and rest below 1000. I had to fight and prove myself a lot. So making mistakes was always hard for me. Don't mix it up with loosing because I lost a lot of games in the beginning. I kept surviving and suviving and got to where I am right now playing in the highest league in an environment where my main club has only an average team 6th/10 in the league below this. Environment plays a big role. Being able to play many many matches in a year aswell. For example vs this player I won't be able to play in a match till october or november. Thats around 8-9 months. So there is a lot of pressure knowing that your next chance to beat him is in almost a year..

now you talked about a good point with the kid. I def have the ability to use the rubber from the strength point of view. And if I am relaxed even better. But the reality is its different in match play. I don't have that mindset in the match I am too scared or break my form by wanting too much. I don't say the rubber is bad or that I cant use it. I say it doesn't help with my nervousnes and is not so unforgiving.

 

[Zezima]

There is no magic answer other than to practice hitting a lot of balls at a lot of distances against a lot of spins and to try to use the whole body to power the shot while reducing the use of the upper arm to retain recovery and stability. No magic answers. But when you hit a lot of balls and connect your stroke path, contact point and arm acceleration and the spin on the incoming ball to the result, you just adapt and become much better at it. It is about adaptation, not logical reasoning. Will you miss a lot, sure. But always remember ‐ a stroke that misses the ball in one situation will put the ball on the table in another!

good point in practise this works for me. In match situation by the time that same scenario occurs I will have forgotten about what I did wrong the last time. You don't want to think about it in the rally eventually I have only this in my mind ok I looped out twice and last time I looped into the net. Cool what do I do now? I don't even remember when I looped it out earlier. etc etc. Its not a drill where you get the exact same spin placement etc. So I play the entire match being super unsure. If atleast the zone of unforgiviness is bigger that would help building my confidence I think and once I keep attacking more I can go back to a hard rubber again. Because I don't have that mindset yet

 

[NextLevel]

Yep I agree noone told me that. And I couldn't memorize and was so much under pressure that I thought ok keep serving more backspin.

2. I do the underused side top serve again free point

Man I am so pissed. Why did I stop pivoting here. He is taking advantage of my bh push receive clearly. I should have been more aware of this and prepare myself to pivot more.

5. There is no way at my skillevel I could have taken that ball with my fh. If I had that skill level I would be clapping him 3-0 by miles. But my bh technique was wrong. I was too afraid of hitting into the net.

6. I actually didn't loop into the net because of that. It was just a very cramped fh where I tried to put all the energy and everything but ended up not being able to spin the ball. Idk the term for this but this has happened quite a few times. Basically I can loop at 7/10 lets say and thats my max but I am pushing for a 8/10 and entire form breaks if I want "too much"

Yep I took a timeout at 2-4. Probably realized it and tried to pivot my backhand.
Yeah exactly this this this!! This is what I meant by tactics. I loop so mindlessly I want to change this for real. Like especially against this type of player where he can only come back to the table with the counter fh attack.
Could have been 3-5 and me still being in the game with that confidence.

9. I try to take more risks with my serves even though my hands shaky. I don't want him to take off and play too comfortable and missed sadly :/
10. It was half long no spin serve. I think I used it only once or twice this entire game. Basically this serve forces my opp to push the ball back. But since he pushed it into my bh and the pus pus I am I didn't take the initiative. Scared of looping/unforced error with the bh. And yes I can do it in training. I am just scared in the match..

11. I know but I am stopping myself on purpose. I am scared of doing that too fast motion that I will overdo it. So I went to the other extreme this time by being too safe and soft. This is not a technical problem but a brain/decision problem.
12. Yeah at this point Idgaf I am like just try you have nothing to lose its lost anyway. It was long and fast I didn't want to brush too much up because I thought there is not much backspin. So I just wanted to spin and use the incoming speed without adding any additional myself. Was more worried that it would fly out honestly.

13. Again I do my fh topspin as if I try to end the rally immediately.. Also scared if I back out again that it will land in the net so i wanted to activate the sponge and hit it fast. I still didn't manage to get the contact right as in training.

wait didn't you say that you were fh player? Ok noted that drill but won't this drill just help me looping from all positions? I think if I decide to use my fh I can loop from any position on the table. I need some decisionmaking here aswell or as you said make room for my fh more since I seem to cover the middle more with my bh instead of fh.

Ok whats the thought process on this? No he does not really flick unless I serve high and short obviously. Care to elaborate more why I want less backspin on my short serves against someone who pushes? What if they are as comfortable pushing no spin serves lets say?

ok yeah working on this

I think if I manage to be more relaxed when I decide to forehand topspin I get more power and spin. The more I force myself to do a hard shot the less power and spin/arc I generate. Thats a brain problem. I do think I am strong enough.
More than being strong is the mental adjustment if I compare myself to him. He just attacks relentlessly even though he did in sum way more unforced errors than I did. He just kept doing what he knows. I need this same mentality as him. Because my defense is much better than his and the fact with barely attacking myself I went into 5set game tells me a lot. Even my serve (except my bh serves) is better than his I think especially sidetopspin serves he struggled with both bh and to his fh.

No clue about tenergy 80 idk which side you mean. On my bh I seem to loop more upwards which is strange since d09c appearently has high throw anyway no? so anything lower throw would not be beenficail and would make me loop even more upwards I think. Something softer and with a high throw so I can focus on looping forwards. But I need to feel the activation of the sponge so I can go confidently forwards and not just in training would be really nice.

I think it's a lot of concentration and getting low and taking it early from what I have learned in online videos. I used to take it much later but recognizing its gonna be short (I try to look on the contact of his side of the table) I think without it I wouldnt have made it this close it was really important. I can also flip but I am scared that my flips are too weak and he will hammer me. Again I NEVER FLIPPED? and was scared of it this entire time...

why better care to elaborate? I mean I didn't really loop much off the table did I? I only scooped it back. Here rubber choice doesn't matter. Like I can't even analyze right now what went wrong because I never dared to loop them..

I am practising this a lot aswell. idk I think in the match I only did it once right.. Maybe too much respect of my opponent and also my brain thinks blocking is a higher chance. I also tried to soft block and change the rythm so he had to move back a lot forwards and back again.

This is the most important thing that I still need to learn. I am too afraid to miss

A few random points: no, I am not a forehand player, I am a two-winged looper, but any player who wants to adjust to a ball that can move suddenly at any time in its travel path is better off using the forehand than the backhand because the forehand has more options for adjusting the swing path than the backhand does. Even the recent controversy about Lin Shidong's game and his ability to use the forehand, it is tied to this. Forehand training is the basis of most footwork training, partly for long balls, it is the far more versatile and powerful shot. Backhand is the basis of most short ball training because of the modern flick, but historically, pushing and flicking was forehand dominated as well and most footwork was built to support this. So even if you are a backhand player or want to use your backhand mostly (think Dima), you need to train your ability to use forehand on more balls because 1. this new ball will force you to play more shots and 2. you will struggle to play many long balls with the backhand unless you play Kreanga size backhands (and even he will tell you that you can't do that with the backhand consistently, though Noshad and Jorgic might argue a little).
==========
On equipment: you are wasting too much time on the properties of the rubber unless your make it a priority that you want it to facilitate *your passive game*, in which case if you look at Butterfly, you need to think seriously about the 80 and 64 rubbers. The main thing is to pick a rubber that a good player uses and then to master it. Every rubber has benefits and negatives. You have to figure out how to make it work for you. I am usually confused when people say they need T05FX or softer rubber on backhand etc. But I have usually tried to accelerate on my backhand like I do on my forehand and vice versa. IF you master arm acceleration, it doesn't matter. But what will matter for you is your play out of the passive game. And the passive game of T80 is somewhat better than the passive game of T05 and T19. T64 has the best passive game by far. Tenergy though is a reactive sponge. No, on your backhand you don't loop upwards, what no one has shown you and what you haven't practiced is how to play and develop a high level backhand topspin. When you do, these statements will matter less.
===============
Most players struggle to push serves that are short with low amount of backspin, especially if they read them as backspin serves. So this makes them pop up the ball and creates attack opportunities. And if you are an offensive player (and sometimes even if you are not), all you want is the opponent to give you an opportunity. That is the goal of most serving from an offensive player. So if you don't like attacking behind backspin and are comfortable being attacked, then serve less backspin so two things happen - either they attack you and you then defend and get the ball to a place they don't like, or they push and pop it up and you get a chance to attack.
===========
Flat hitting shows you what happens when you make solid contact with the ball. Lots of balls that are loose are easier to smash than we realize but if we always brush, then we lose the ability to make solid contact with the ball with a smash. But sometimes you can smash with spin or smash completely flat. But because you are using more racket to contact the ball, you take less risk on the brush. Easier with a softer rubber especially if you play away from the table.
=============

If I had to pick one thing, just practice things that make you accelerate the forearm much more and practice things that make you move and play a forehand repeatedly. Getting better at moving always raises the level.

 

[Zezima]

Congratulations you just described every table tennis player ever - can do things in training but can't necessarily do them in a match. That is a technical problem because your technique isn't good enough that it can happen subconsciously.

this is plain wrong. This would be only true if I can make those same shots only consciously which is not the case to me. In Training I do them subconsciously as well. And its not necessary that I can't do it in matches from what I have analyzed. It's that I don't do it consistently or revert back to passive play. There is a huge mental blockage that has nothing to do with the technique. Maybe you framed it bad.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

this is plain wrong. This would be only true if I can make those same shots only consciously which is not the case to me. In Training I do them subconsciously as well. And its not necessary that I can't do it in matches from what I have analyzed. It's that I don't do it consistently or revert back to passive play. There is a huge mental blockage that has nothing to do with the technique. Maybe you framed it bad.

You just can't help yourself from shooting yourself in the foot. Good luck.

 

[NextLevel]

good point in practise this works for me. In match situation by the time that same scenario occurs I will have forgotten about what I did wrong the last time. You don't want to think about it in the rally eventually I have only this in my mind ok I looped out twice and last time I looped into the net. Cool what do I do now? I don't even remember when I looped it out earlier. etc etc. Its not a drill where you get the exact same spin placement etc. So I play the entire match being super unsure. If atleast the zone of unforgiviness is bigger that would help building my confidence I think and once I keep attacking more I can go back to a hard rubber again. Because I don't have that mindset yet

There is nothing wrong with brushing with fast arm/racket acceleration. Brushing is what creates the spin. The key is to be able to brush and put the ball on the table with spin against all kinds of balls. Once you know you can play a basic offensive shot and not miss, then you can start to adjust the level of risk depending familiarity with the opponent and your read of the ball. You can add more speed to the ball if you want to pressure the opponent for time, but if you are made to move and feel late, just brush the ball back on the table. Just don't do it in a way that doesn't create any problems with quality or placement like you do when you just scoop the ball when it jams you. That shot might work if the opponent is off the table or if they have given up the table with full power or have tripped. But if they are still playing you need to do better.

And no, it is not true that the match is as uncertain as you think it is. Most players play within a range and your job is to find that range. There is nothing wrong with losing to better players either, and even worse players, as long as you feel they played well and you played your game. So the first step is always to define your game (am I an attacker - I put pressure - or defender - I absorb pressure) and then create skills that help you get better at doing what you want to do. For me, even as an offensive player, my first base is *consistency* - I start with putting the ball on the table with heavy brush and raise the risk and reduce the risk based on the opponent. Opponents come with all kinds of styles but the power of topspin is that any long ball can be topspinned if you read it correctly and use the correct stroke trajectory or power level. Weird opponents can use sidespins and stuff to throw you off, but if you can spin properly, you can adjust to them and keep them under pressure. And of course, it is okay to make mistakes and learn or to use other styles if your preferred style is not working. I push a lot when I am tired or when I don't feel pressure from the opponent's attack and can make the block.

 

[NextLevel]

this is plain wrong. This would be only true if I can make those same shots only consciously which is not the case to me. In Training I do them subconsciously as well. And its not necessary that I can't do it in matches from what I have analyzed. It's that I don't do it consistently or revert back to passive play. There is a huge mental blockage that has nothing to do with the technique. Maybe you framed it bad.

@ThePongCommenter is 100% correct and you are plain wrong. There is a saying in TT that if you cannot do it at 10-10 or 10-11 in the 5th game of a match, you really can't do it. Because the body does what it believes it can do. Doesn't mean you will make it, but the confidence to do it must first be there, and that confidence comes from doing it under pressure at many key points. Basically, you can argue the semantics all you want, but if you talk to good coaches and players, they speak like @ThePongCommenter and not like you.

 

[Zezima]

Very experienced amateurs (don't know @ThePongCommenter but I will pretend he is a very experienced amateur with a much higher playing level than OP, likely better than that) are repeating earned wisdom and @Zezima, like the good adult learner he is, will push back with self-defense. You need to find a better balance between knowing who to listen to and what to work on. But the biggest thing that one must accept with any change is that usually, with rare exceptions, there is a period of discomfort and playing worse before playing better.

And when you complain too much about misses rather than figuring out how to use them to adapt, this stagnates the learning process and brings you back to square one.

I shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black because I used to argue with my second coach (now of late memory) *all the time*. But the good thing for someone who at least loves the sport as much as you do, @Zezima, is that if you find the right mentor, and find a better way to express your curiosity without being defensive, you will gain a lot.

So since you have slowed down the blade already, decide whether you want to change during or after the season. Or if you have two Korbels. build a backup blade with what you want to test. Then see how it goes in practice and then go from there. But even with the new rubbers, you still need to practice attacking and accelerating the forearm.

Again you don't know his playing level I don't know either. I don't go defense I challenge what they say. Same with you and the others. As someone said before I have to be careful who to listen to and since I don't know peoples playing rate/expertise I pick only the ones that I understand and sounds solid to me.

@ThePongCommenter maybe means well but he is very aggressive and very passive aggressive without much explaining his thoughtprocess. Obviously I will challenge his stance. If he gets offended he is free to leave this thread. He comes off as someone who is just who just wants to drop his opinion in a toxic way (atleast to me).

And when you complain too much about misses rather than figuring out how to use them to adapt, this stagnates the learning process and brings you back to square one.

I seem to do this at the beginning of the set. First 2 points in the first set great example. Where I am very lose relaxed and don't care if I miss or not. But the longer the game goes the more I "care" and the less I am tempted to try out and find out if that loop would have worked or not. My balance there is definetly on the passive side.

I also don't get defensive to you or people who come across genuinely friendly towards me, as I replied to your big post, where I also took big effort to reply to even though you might not read it, it was still helpful to me to put my thoughts to each point. I feel like I have the entire game memorized in my head now so I call it worth.

you still need to practice attacking and accelerating the forearm.

This is still not the problem. I actually want to prove this by just attacking fully in my next match even though I might lose hard. But you raised a good point with the backup blade. My lil brother wants me to go back to W968 and said I played much better in the last round that was a year ago.

He means these games. He says I don't play really better with the korbel. That's why I am a bit tempted to not buy a backup blade of korbel if thats really my plan. I actually haven't touched the w968 setup for 3months now. I do want to change during the season. I think I will get accustomed to the new rubbers within a week. When I used H3n on my fh I even beat the player I previously lost to after just playing for a week or two. Since I am not hardcore hitting and playing more with "feel" I get used to it faster I guess.

 

[Zezima]

I think why you go back instead of standing your ground and attacking goes back to a lack of confidence attacking with the harder rubbers. And I completely get why this is happening. People won't talk about it much but loosing confidence in your shots is a challenge we all go through at some stage.

Regarding the drill, what you mentioned will help, just do it every session even for a few minutes. I put my water bottle at the side of my vision on the floor as a reference point to force me back forward. Yes I have noticed in your videos, inconsistent ball feeding. But for this drill, no blocking, topspin to topspin rally and say after the 5th ball in the rally you might notice you are back from the table so come forward and try and use it to take the ball early and apply pressure on your rally partner. If you need more balls to settle into the rally then do that, but the aim is to develop the visual understanding that you are back too far plus the footwork, timing and confidence to come back to the table.

Out of interest, do you do aggressive topspin to topspin training rallies?

If you don't, maybe something to add in. Start this with a strong focus on control and generating that high end top spin so the ball rips down. Then add the speed...and finish it off with a ego driven power contest to see who has the edge. It is great fun, forces control and power....and a little bit of footwork training without even having to think about it....you might develop a taste for it and go looking for it in matches instead of blocking

No. I don't know from whom but I got this idea that it's a useless drill since that scenario happens maybe once or twice in a real match at our level. I did that drill maybe once in 4months or so. My practise partners were also not good enough to do this. But in the trainingscamp we did this drill twice or so within the span of 4 days. It was fun with the equal skilled player. I even did countertopspin after letting them open up with a very high successrate. But it feels like I lost that skill right now