Match tactics

[NextLevel]

This is a little neurotic, it could be more digestible by dumbing it down to being conscious that your opponent likes to use a heavy push on their forehand but bumps it more on their backhand.

Some opponents do both variations on one or both sides, so you have to read their variations. None of that really detracts from the general point that you need to read spin and you need to use your understand of spin and your understanding of your technique to figure out what must have been on a ball when you missed it with the hope that you can figure it out and apply it to your game should the situation repeat it self. Especially important playing new opponents but critical for opponents who have changed as well and IMHO, the only way you truly get used to playing against long pips etc.. IF the opponent pushes and you push back and your ball flies way off the table, he either chopped the ball with incredible spin (very unlikely) or the ball has far less backspin than you think it did, which is more likely what happened.

 

[Zezima]

You don't memorize the loop.
You memorize the push.

///////////

If I see a push and I think that is 40 rps and I loop it out:
I remember what the push looked like and say "that was probably 20 rps".

The next time I see that push, I will recognize it: "hey there's the 20 rps push he did like last time".
Now I know I need to loop the ball lower.

I am too dumb for this. In a drill yes I can do this. But in a match not anymore. But kudos to you if you play like this in a match.

 

[NextLevel]

I am too dumb for this. In a drill yes I can do this. But in a match not anymore. But kudos to you if you play like this in a match.

Forget about improving then, this is table tennis 101 and needs to be done in training and matches to get to a good level. You have to recognize the play faster to prepare faster and take advantage of the opponent faster. The alternative is to find ways to handcuff the opponent so that they are forced to give you balls you can read and that can work but usually depends on you being better than the opponent significantly at doing something.

 

[Zezima]

Forget about improving then, this is table tennis 101 and needs to be done in training and matches to get to a good level. You have to recognize the play faster to prepare faster and take advantage of the opponent faster. The alternative is to find ways to handcuff the opponent so that they are forced to give you balls they can read and that can work but usually depends on you being better than the opponent significantly at doing something.

well maybe in this lifetime I will be able to improve on this aspect. But right now it feels like too many things to think about.

I do think we all agree on the main points in this thread. So no need to repeat what was said earlier and what I recognized to be the case aswell. I wrote it down. I will work on this in the next training sessions. Try to be more aware in training even if a stroke works and not only when it doesn't work.

I feel like the main points has been said and noted down by me. Most helpful comments where the ones from the point by point analysis by @NextLevel . And also from others who encouraged me about the mental/mindset aspect.


Ill report back after my next game. It's gonna be a disaster but I will accept the short term failure to grow out of this bad mentality. I don't know how long it will take but I already feel the pump that I will loop more often in my next games.

 

[NextLevel]

well maybe in this lifetime I will be able to improve on this aspect. But right now it feels like too many things to think about.

I do think we all agree on the main points in this thread. So no need to repeat what was said earlier and what I recognized to be the case aswell. I wrote it down. I will work on this in the next training sessions. Try to be more aware in training even if a stroke works and not only when it doesn't work.

I feel like the main points has been said and noted down by me. Most helpful comments where the ones from the point by point analysis by @NextLevel . And also from others who encouraged me about the mental/mindset aspect.


Ill report back after my next game. It's gonna be a disaster but I will accept the short term failure to grow out of this bad mentality. I don't know how long it will take but I already feel the pump that I will loop more often in my next games.

Nothing is built in a day, it is clear you want to beat good players which is the most important thing, you compete and have a rating which will keep you honest (it shouldn't be the only focus, but it will give you something to work with over the years). Good players (@songdavid98 would be TTR 1800-1950 in Germany) are telling you what to do, it is not your job to really argue, it is your job to just take what you can, do what you can, and see how far you can go.

If you didn't compete, I wouldn't waste any time. People who don't compete are rarely motivated to break through, they will do what they enjoy but not what it takes to win. Everyone can argue until they have to produce results.

 

[MORTtheORT]

I agree with you but then the rubber is not right if I have to go 1,9mm I think I read that somewhere and had people talk about this with me too. I like the feeling of the ball sinking into the rubber so why go for a thinner rubber?

The problem with harder rubbers are that I don't feel the ball sinking into the rubber unless I go really hard which I mostly don't. I want that nice feeling when opening up softly aswell.

Also T19 is the more tame version of T05 for example so I can go T19 in max instead of thinner t05 who seems to be also very spin sensitiv which I don't need atm against these players who I struggle reading their serves correctly.

In training I have that confidence only because I seem to see their quality is bad and it is also enough to put the ball just back I am not forced to loop. Thats also maybe why my defensive abilities are better developed. I am not that relentless looper. I am more of a get some good blocks in challenge their topspins and once they bring a bad ball back attack. In my games there is a lot of tempo variation.

But I agree I need confidence

Yep, a T19 with more Sponge works. I was more referring to if you go for something like a T05 which is more spin sensitive.

At the moment your gear mindset should be all about accessible performance, not peak rubber performance as this is just not achievable in a match situation and against the level of players you are playing.

The T19 is basically a T05 that is easier to use with better dwell time. Sounds like a good option that will help you open up and third ball attack.

 

[NetProphet]

Wrong, your goal should be to read how much backspin every push has.

Absolutely.
Thats the best reason to do push rallys in practice. If you don't read it correctly you pop it up.
You begin to recognise things and that recognition applies when you come to loop those pushes, you just know which ones need that additional racket speed.
This is just me thinking out loud really but it's interesting that some people don't immediately and always do this. I had kinda assumed that everyone did this but I guess we all have different habits and holes in our game....

 

[MORTtheORT]

No. I don't know from whom but I got this idea that it's a useless drill since that scenario happens maybe once or twice in a real match at our level. I did that drill maybe once in 4months or so. My practise partners were also not good enough to do this. But in the trainingscamp we did this drill twice or so within the span of 4 days. It was fun with the equal skilled player. I even did countertopspin after letting them open up with a very high successrate. But it feels like I lost that skill right now

Unfortunately it sounds like people avoiding what they are not good at. They don't like getting outside of their comfort zone which is limiting to their development. It is an unfortunate mind set of the people around you and why they have a very limited game.

Just ask them to spend 10 minutes with you as you need to develop it as part of your game, then return the favour to help them with a part of their game. And in this situation you will have to work with them to improve them to help improve you..so at the start just focus on spin, placement and technique while they get better over just blasting them off the table. Doing this will at least develop a degree of comfort in this style of game and your feel will improve.

I think with some confidence these players around you will start to like this drill and get into it.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

As my club aunties always says; one left, one right, then one more to the middle, make em’move! Simple.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Yo

this is plain wrong. This would be only true if I can make those same shots only consciously which is not the case to me. In Training I do them subconsciously as well. And its not necessary that I can't do it in matches from what I have analyzed. It's that I don't do it consistently or revert back to passive play. There is a huge mental blockage that has nothing to do with the technique. Maybe you framed it bad.

Yes, technique and effort is not what is holding you back. Confidence is and the difficult part of this is words won't fix it for you. You need to "See", "Do" and "Feel". That T19 is looking better and better IMO.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

watched a bit the 3 matches.
not a lot to comment on tactics on match 2 or 3 with easy wins against lower opponents.

1st opponent was clearly better. his ball spin quality was high on opening loops and consistent.
i think you didn't play bad. Actually you managed to raise your level compared to the other more two easier opponents.
Your blocking was good. Serve/Receive was rather ok. I don't think there's particularly anything wrong with tactics. It's just an ability gap. IMO you won G2 because your served very well in this game.

Things i noticed:
- your first loop / topspin has good quality when its on the table, but after the BH opening you are not able to follow and are quickly going away from the table. After first FH attack you can follow more often. I've seen your training videos and IMO you're not BH oriented player. Your BH not enough quality and consistent and form is too big. So my advice is after BH loop get prepared to play immediately an agressive FH.

- I think your best serve is reverse pendulum to FH because you are following well after with your FH.
- I think you should work on making same serve but more variations. for example if your reverse pendulum to short FH is good so now you need to develop fast reverse pendulum serves to BH. Its almost like you're using a bit too many serves and don't know what to do.
- Don't go back !!!
- you make too many mistakes in counters because you want to (flat) hit hard the ball and hit a winner immediately while the opponent ball is difficult. if you are closer to the table then use opponent speed and just a short stroke to brush the ball FROM ABOVE (bat angle almost closed). Away from the table, don't compromise and use always spin. Don't be afraid to play safer and just be ready to play another ball.

====
Tactics is simple. Try to find out what the opponent doesn't like. When you find something he doesn't like and works stick to it until he adapts, especially for important points. If something doesn't work, change. Don't change for changing. Ideally you find 3 things he doesn't like on your serve and 2 on your receive and you do only that and mix between them.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

1. Step in
2. Chiquita to BH
3. Oppo blocks
4. Step out
5. FH counter-drive to oppo elbow
6. CHO-LEH like Tomo
7. Savour the moment

 

[songdavid98]

I am too dumb for this. In a drill yes I can do this. But in a match not anymore. But kudos to you if you play like this in a match.

You think you're too dumb to memorize what pushes are how much spin.
But you and the rest of everybody here already do this for serves...

And if you aren't doing it for serves already,
or if you think this is too neurotic,
you probably aren't too good at table tennis.

 

[NextLevel]

You think you're too dumb to memorize what pushes are how much spin.
But you and the rest of everybody here already do this for serves...

And if you aren't doing it for serves already,
or if you think this is too neurotic,
you probably aren't too good at table tennis.

He can play his club mates who use pips so he is fine, he is just intimidated by your description and overwhelmed by the volume of discussion - it makes him want to defend himself...

 

[Zezima]

Okay. At a certain point you will have to figure it out yourself if it works for you. I have told you how better players think, you are free to disagree with them. This is not an unusual debate by the way, some people talk about Lin Gaoyuan's unreliable game, but some people say it is because his technique is not stable enough with spin to handle pressure moments. So you are not unique in having your own disagreements.

No I just think we talk about different topics and you two try to combine two different issues. I mean we can just agree to disagree at this point. I don't want to put more energy into that discussion. So let's leave it at that.

Your technique is suboptimal. As @songdavid98 said, you are doing something wrong, you don't understand it is wrong, and you continue doing it. And then under pressure it fails you, but you think it is you, not realizing that what you are doing is wrong even if you think it is correct.

We all have suboptimal techniques even pros. I mean you watched the entire match if you forgot how it went a quick

tldr: I am scooping instead of not being afraid to loop when the block lands short for example.
I am too afraid too loop long backspin balls to my bh (only did like ~4 times in the entire match about 50% hitrate)
Afraid to collect data by topspinning even from suboptimal positions with the fh.
Some tactical mistakes like looping to the fh or blocking to the fh when I could have gone hard on his backhand especially after he left the table.

Like it's hard to talk about technical mistakes if I am too scared to make them. The few I missed were basically in the beginning (looping out collecting data) then stopped collecting data and tried really hard many many times. Even backspin balls I wanted to loop hard forwards. Just stiffening up so much when trying so hard to penetrate the rubber to "get spin" but it only works when I am relaxing.

I think I will go with T19 max. For the Bh I will decide after Mondays training session. But I think I will listen to the people here that tell me that t05 fx is too soft for me. So I will look for a more lively rubber than R7 but softer than d09c still but not as catapulty as a D80. No clue what that one could be.

Also I would like to ask what kind of drills I can practise for the match to get more balls to the middle/fh side without me giving them a ball on to their fh (most people loop diagonal) Because if I keep them at their bh I am thinking too much about covering my own bh with my bh so it gets harder for me to use the fh.

Also I will keep in mind to use my reverse pendulum serve to their short fh. Also long in to their bh (fast) -> But I need to rpactise this ball more if they don't miss the receive because that ball is very difficult to deal for me since it drifts far to my bh so I have to learn hitting that with my bh first. And if they chop it downwards it is even more difficult to loop with my bh and even to push I guess I need to do it more and practise attacking that ball more.

Also I will keep in mind to serve more short balls but varying the spin with backspin no spin pure side and sidetop to keep em guessing and making some pop up.

 

[NetProphet]

No I just think we talk about different topics and you two try to combine two different issues. I mean we can just agree to disagree at this point. I don't want to put more energy into that discussion. So let's leave it at that.


We all have suboptimal techniques even pros. I mean you watched the entire match if you forgot how it went a quick

tldr: I am scooping instead of not being afraid to loop when the block lands short for example.
I am too afraid too loop long backspin balls to my bh (only did like ~4 times in the entire match about 50% hitrate)
Afraid to collect data by topspinning even from suboptimal positions with the fh.
Some tactical mistakes like looping to the fh or blocking to the fh when I could have gone hard on his backhand especially after he left the table.

Like it's hard to talk about technical mistakes if I am too scared to make them. The few I missed were basically in the beginning (looping out collecting data) then stopped collecting data and tried really hard many many times. Even backspin balls I wanted to loop hard forwards. Just stiffening up so much when trying so hard to penetrate the rubber to "get spin" but it only works when I am relaxing.

I think I will go with T19 max. For the Bh I will decide after Mondays training session. But I think I will listen to the people here that tell me that t05 fx is too soft for me. So I will look for a more lively rubber than R7 but softer than d09c still but not as catapulty as a D80. No clue what that one could be.

Have you tried your G1 on BH?

 

[banbekas]

I have watched the first video and well, the only tactic you need to do is to slow loop the ball to your friend's forehand. Even if your friend somehow counterloops it, you just need to put your block on your forehand side. He keeps attacking the forehand side everytime he puts power behind his shot. Matter of facts, he keeps looping to your FH.

Basic strategy I can tell you is to notice the pattern of your opponent. Like your friend in the first video, when you push to his FH, your friend loops it to your middle or FH, make a plan around killing that loop.

 

[Zezima]

Have you tried your G1 on BH?

Yes I was doing more mistakes looping more out while looping with d09c was closer to the end line. I assume it was because of the base speed of d09c being slower than g1.

With the G1 I also worsened my technique on the fh. Being scared of looping more out so I was looping with a very thin contact very closed racket angle and unconsciously aiming at the top of the ball. But that was about 2 years ago. As you know I am in process of looping with a more open racket angle and with more sponge so it changed a bit.
That's one of the reasons I don't want to go back to g1 since it unconsciously makes me fix that problem (with looping out) with a worse very very slim margin of error technique.

That's why Id like to try out something else.
D80 I didn't like both for bh and for fh. Hard and fast I assume it's for kids or generally players who like to attack but need more help with the equipment. Since I have enough strength I don't need it. For me the most important aspect is the feeling and feedback. I need the rubber to give me good feedback when I hit the ball just right.

By feedback I can only explain it with d09c and h3n when I tried them out on fh. When I hit it right and fast with d09c I got rewarded and it felt effortless. When I hit right with h3n I didn't get rewarded there was not a good feeling in my hand in comparison it felt dull, dead a feeling closer to Rakza 7 I would say with R7 maybe even "livelier"

Absolutely.
Thats the best reason to do push rallys in practice. If you don't read it correctly you pop it up.
You begin to recognise things and that recognition applies when you come to loop those pushes, you just know which ones need that additional racket speed.
This is just me thinking out loud really but it's interesting that some people don't immediately and always do this. I had kinda assumed that everyone did this but I guess we all have different habits and holes in our game....

You reminded me of Stefan who said he is so bad at pushing that it makes him take more risks and loop almost everything he somehow gets to the fh. Because my bh push is so good I default to that stroke instead of looping. Because looping with the bh means they can start jamming me or I will be late to see which side I have to loop with again. My emotions and brain puts me so much under pressure to not play a loop.
But I do like practising pushes. It's also something I can do with worse players. I don't know if its unconscious but I don't struggle pushing backspin/no spin ball back. I should be using the long push more often in matches aswell. Because people tell me I have a really good long push in training. But the play safe mindset in matches don't allow me to push that hard and aggressive. But that will change hopefully in the future games.

Also a quick update in this thread aswell I bought another korbel with T19 max both sides. So we can focus on mental/tactics aspect in this thread again

 

[Zezima]

I have watched the first video and well, the only tactic you need to do is to slow loop the ball to your friend's forehand. Even if your friend somehow counterloops it, you just need to put your block on your forehand side. He keeps attacking the forehand side everytime he puts power behind his shot. Matter of facts, he keeps looping to your FH.

Basic strategy I can tell you is to notice the pattern of your opponent. Like your friend in the first video, when you push to his FH, your friend loops it to your middle or FH, make a plan around killing that loop.

His loop is very spinny I think I only dared to counter it once when he was behind and I was behind aswell. When I was close to the table I defaulted to blocking because it felt too dangerous to counter that. He takes it very late but puts a lot of spin. There is one point where the ball sinks so fast on my side that I even missed trying to block it.

Even though I am practising counterloops it's not the same as countering 1200 rated players loops compared to a player like him to me. But thats still a good point to keep in mind I also tell my lil brother when he is there that he should keep track on where they loop the balls on my side. Trying to take the mental load of remembering everything.

 

[banbekas]

His loop is very spinny I think I only dared to counter it once when he was behind and I was behind aswell. When I was close to the table I defaulted to blocking because it felt too dangerous to counter that. He takes it very late but puts a lot of spin. There is one point where the ball sinks so fast on my side that I even missed trying to block it.

Even though I am practising counterloops it's not the same as countering 1200 rated players loops compared to a player like him to me. But thats still a good point to keep in mind I also tell my lil brother when he is there that he should keep track on where they loop the balls on my side. Trying to take the mental load of remembering everything.

If it’s a sparring match, just try to counterloop. Winning or losing doesn’t matter in sparring. Improving your game and building confidence should be your main objectives. Start slowly. There’s no need to counterloop hard like the pros. Just guide the ball with control.

In my opinion, we often exaggerate the strategic side of the game. It is strategic, but at a certain point, especially when we feel tense, we fall back into set patterns. Noticing those patterns is important if you want to take the initiative in this sport.