Nasty rubber setup, another great ERT video

[TensorBackhand]

Here, Idesawa is using short pips on FH and long pips on BH. This setup would give me nightmares to play against. Take any 1200 player, give them this setup, and they would instantly become a 1400 player. Any 1600 player would instantly become 1800 and would probably beat me with this.

I personally think pips rubbers should just be banned. Of course its a big tradeoff. It would be sad to see the chopper style disappear, but at the same time, I think its unfare to throw such a curveball into the game. It's like we practice basketball with a regulation net, but only in Utah, games are played with a higher rim. This phenomenon does not occur in Tennis or Badminton. Only in TT is there the possibility to throw a big wrench into the system. It's like how baseball pitchers try to cheat by putting oil onto the ball before they throw it.

 

[NextLevel]

Here, Idesawa is using short pips on FH and long pips on BH. This setup would give me nightmares to play against. Take any 1200 player, give them this setup, and they would instantly become a 1400 player. Any 1600 player would instantly become 1800 and would probably beat me with this.

I personally think pips rubbers should just be banned. Of course its a big tradeoff. It would be sad to see the chopper style disappear, but at the same time, I think its unfare to throw such a curveball into the game. It's like we practice basketball with a regulation net, but only in Utah, games are played with a higher rim. This phenomenon does not occur in Tennis or Badminton. Only in TT is there the possibility to throw a big wrench into the system. It's like how baseball pitchers try to cheat by putting oil onto the ball before they throw it.

It's all relative. Idesawa is struggling to make the national team in Japan, so obviously the pips didn't take her from 2600 to 2800 or 2800 to 3000.

The issue is how often you play those opponents and your mental approach. The ratings don't change, the problem is that players who hate pips are too stubborn to develop the skills and patience to adapt to the timing the equipment changes bring on. If you do, they actually are easier to play against, the ball kicks less, the return options are limited, and their ability to handle spin tops out. It's why Ito has a ceiling, no matter how good she gets, they know that her return and spin options on the backhand are limited. It's the same with Idesawa, she just hits the ball well enough that you have very limited time to figure her out in one match. But this is the principle with pips players in general.

I remember one time when Brian Pace said, "When you are playing pips, you are not playing the player, you are playing the technology." I was like, there he goes again. But over time, I found that if someone used a specific pips brand that I practiced regularly against in the club, I was often comfortable playing against it. Something similar happens with inverted so maybe he was still overstating the point. But I get his main point better now.

 

[TensorBackhand]

You can see the match is really ugly, with both players making a ton of unforced errors.

It's all relative. Idesawa is struggling to make the national team in Japan, so obviously the pips didn't take her from 2600 to 2800 or 2800 to 3000.

The issue is how often you play those opponents and your mental approach. The ratings don't change, the problem is that players who hate pips are too stubborn to develop the skills and patience to adapt to the timing the equipment changes bring on. If you do, they actually are easier to play against, the ball kicks less, the return options are limited, and their ability to handle spin tops out. It's why Ito has a ceiling, no matter how good she gets, they know that her return and spin options on the backhand are limited. It's the same with Idesawa, she just hits the ball well enough that you have very limited time to figure her out in one match. But this is the principle with pips players in general.

I remember one time when Brian Pace said, "When you are playing pips, you are not playing the player, you are playing the technology." I was like, there he goes again. But over time, I found that if someone used a specific pips brand that I practiced regularly against in the club, I was often comfortable playing against it. Something similar happens with inverted so maybe he was still overstating the point. But I get his main point better now.

Yeah, I think there is a huge jump by using pips under 2000. Above 2400 level, then there is diminishing or negative returns. Obviously on the nationally team, you have tons of practice and resources, and you wouldn't be surprised by any type of pips. But as a recreational player, I don't get enough practice against pips and it is very difficult to deal with.

Recently I ask my friend to play with pips against me so I can practice, but its not the same. He doens't know how to use pips.

But you can see even Qian struggled badly against this style. She's recently beat #1 Sun Yinsha, but she barely scrapes by with a victory against this unknown player.

 

[NextLevel]

You can see the match is really ugly, with both players making a ton of unforced errors.

Yeah, I think there is a huge jump by using pips under 2000. Above 2400 level, then there is diminishing or negative returns. Obviously on the nationally team, you have tons of practice and resources, and you wouldn't be surprised by any type of pips. But as a recreational player, I don't get enough practice against pips and it is very difficult to deal with.

Recently I ask my friend to play with pips against me so I can practice, but its not the same. He doens't know how to use pips.

But you can see even Qian struggled badly against this style. She's recently beat #1 Sun Yinsha, but she barely scrapes by with a victory against this unknown player.

Table tennis is really ugly in general when it comes to spin variation causing unforced errors. At that level, the speed of the game close to the table leads to lots of errors as well. If they played you or me using either equipment, they would not miss because the game is slower. The ugliness is subjective, probably uglier than regular dual inverted TT, but dual inverted, tensioned sponge TT is ugly to many people as well.

Idesawa is only unknown in the same sense that Sun Mingyang or He Zhuoja is unknown - she was fielded ahead of Haruna Ojio and behind Kihara/Nagasaki regularly on the junior national team in Japan at the WJTTC, she just didn't have the same success against Kuai Man and Xunyao Shi (though I might be misremembering the exact opponents and teammates).

You know how to hit a no-spin ball and a backspin ball, so you know how to hit a pips ball. You also know how to change your shot when the ball has more or less backspin. In a real match, your problem isn't hitting the ball, it is that you don't want to read the ball before hitting.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Table tennis is really ugly in general when it comes to spin variation causing unforced errors. At that level, the speed of the game close to the table leads to lots of errors as well. If they played you or me using either equipment, they would not miss because the game is slower. The ugliness is subjective, probably uglier than regular dual inverted TT, but dual inverted, tensioned sponge TT is ugly to many people as well.

Idesawa is only unknown in the same sense that Sun Mingyang or He Zhuoja is unknown - she was fielded ahead of Haruna Ojio and behind Kihara/Nagasaki regularly on the junior national team in Japan at the WJTTC, she just didn't have the same success against Kuai Man and Xunyao Shi (though I might be misremembering the exact opponents and teammates).

You know how to hit a no-spin ball and a backspin ball, so you know how to hit a pips ball. You also know how to change your shot when the ball has more or less backspin. In a real match, your problem isn't hitting the ball, it is that you don't want to read the ball before hitting.

Well its not just 1 variable - no spin, as you say. It's about 15 different variables all at once that make it harder. With the pips, the spin direction is different, the spin amount is different, the pace is different, the length is different, the arc is different, the rhythm is different, the timing is different, all of these forces conflate to make playing against pips like a completely different sport that I haven't practiced.

 

[NextLevel]

Well its not just 1 variable - no spin, as you say. It's about 15 different variables all at once that make it harder. With the pips, the spin direction is different, the spin amount is different, the pace is different, the length is different, the arc is different, the rhythm is different, the timing is different, all of these forces conflate to make playing against pips like a completely different sport that I haven't practiced.

Nah, not really, many of those things are driven by the amount of spin on the ball. Given how you frame the problem though, it becomes barely solvable, and that probably affects your mindset playing those players more than their actual skill level.

I usually give myself at least one game to learn what the pips do. Unless the player is far better than me and it wouldn't matter anyways, that is enough to learn what kinds of balls they produce and for me to see whether my spin level troubles them or not.

 

[superbackhand]

pips should be banned? why? because you can’t handle it?
short pips on FH is the shortest way to have a powerful FH when you switch to smooth after

 

[TensorBackhand]

pips should be banned? why? because you can’t handle it?
short pips on FH is the shortest way to have a powerful FH when you switch to smooth after

Because it creates inconsistent playing field.

 

[NextLevel]

I personally think pips rubbers should just be banned. Of course its a big tradeoff. It would be sad to see the chopper style disappear, but at the same time, I think its unfare to throw such a curveball into the game. It's like we practice basketball with a regulation net, but only in Utah, games are played with a higher rim. This phenomenon does not occur in Tennis or Badminton. Only in TT is there the possibility to throw a big wrench into the system. It's like how baseball pitchers try to cheat by putting oil onto the ball before they throw it.

I can only speak to tennis but in tennis, this is just false at the tour level. There are different surfaces and different bounces/nuances even within surfaces. And there are also different balls selected for the tournaments depending on the effect that the tournament is looking for based on environmental factors. And finally, customization of equipment while regulated allows for different kinds of string technology. In fact, the levels of spin in tennis recently are a new thing and a result of innovations similar to what happened with sponged inverted and speed glue in table tennis. They are a part of what led to a homogenization of the game and killed the serve and volley style (too much speed and spin made volleying too risky - sound familiar?).

 

[zeio]

Here, Idesawa is using short pips on FH and long pips on BH. This setup would give me nightmares to play against. Take any 1200 player, give them this setup, and they would instantly become a 1400 player. Any 1600 player would instantly become 1800 and would probably beat me with this.

I personally think pips rubbers should just be banned. Of course its a big tradeoff. It would be sad to see the chopper style disappear, but at the same time, I think its unfare to throw such a curveball into the game. It's like we practice basketball with a regulation net, but only in Utah, games are played with a higher rim. This phenomenon does not occur in Tennis or Badminton. Only in TT is there the possibility to throw a big wrench into the system. It's like how baseball pitchers try to cheat by putting oil onto the ball before they throw it.

You've picked the wrong sport. It is actually the most iconic element that makes table tennis unique, even among racket sports.

You sound exactly like a long time friend who can't play against combination players. I can't remember the number of times I have been trashed by them.

I've played a Div A female player a few times, ranked in the top 30s and has been for a decade now. The closest I came was 2 games in a bo5. It was fun. I could overwhelm her with power but then I risk missing more than I land. Timing is the biggest problem and patience goes a long way when playing these styles. You can't just treat them like double-inverted players. It's a reminder that table tennis remains a delicate sport at its core despite all the changes over the years.

 

[NextLevel]

You've picked the wrong sport. It is actually the most iconic element that makes table tennis unique, even among racket sports.

You sound exactly like a long time friend who can't play against combination players. I can't remember the number of times I have been trashed by them.

I've played a Div A female player a few times, ranked in the top 30s and has been for a decade now. The closest I came was 2 games in a bo5. It was fun. I could overwhelm her with power but then I risk missing more than I land. Timing is the biggest problem and patience goes a long way when playing these styles. You can't just treat them like double-inverted players. It's a reminder that table tennis remains a delicate sport at its core despite all the changes over the years.

As a lady (junior national team, dual inverted close to the table topspin) told a guy who liked to go all-out forehand and had no backhand so he couldn't play close to the table, "You run around too much, go play tennis!"

 

[superbackhand]

Because it creates inconsistent playing field.

ever heard of the term “timing”? changing the timing is actually one of the most difficult skills to master in table tennis.

i would suggest everyone to try to play with pips yourself to “add” more to your skillset. It only helps your game for the better side.

 

[Metaxa]

Well its not just 1 variable - no spin, as you say. It's about 15 different variables all at once that make it harder. With the pips, the spin direction is different, the spin amount is different, the pace is different, the length is different, the arc is different, the rhythm is different, the timing is different, all of these forces conflate to make playing against pips like a completely different sport that I haven't practiced.

Truth! And that doesn't make sense according to the science of table tennis logic.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Imagine if somebody created a new rubber that was different from pips, but turned all topspin shots into sidespin. Would that be allowed?

I think there should be separate tournaments for LP, because it is essentially a different sport. It requires its own preparation and training.

 

[TensorBackhand]

What if the top half of my blade was inerted and bottom half was LP. Should that be allowed? Why not? You need to learn to read the spin

 

[TensorBackhand]

Another video came up on my Youtube feed. Apparently other Chinese TT fans also took note of the difficulty of Idesawa's unusual racket setup.

ERT himself also noted how QTY defeated Sun Yinsha but struggled against a non-world class player.

 

[TensorBackhand]

A few more videos popped up. Apparently everybody is taking notice of Idesawa and her unusual style.

These were all Chinese, but can anybody give a brief summary of their main idea?

 

[allencorn]

Why must the "standard" always be spinny inverted? Why not go back to hardhat, or everyone play with pips? It's not like all the inverted rubbers are the same, either.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Why must the "standard" always be spinny inverted? Why not go back to hardhat, or everyone play with pips? It's not like all the inverted rubbers are the same, either.

exactly my point. Inverted should be its own separate tournament. Hardbat or pips should be its own category.

How silly would it be if Roger Federer played with strings and Nadal played with rubber on his racket that produces a different type of effect?

 

[igorponger]

Using long pips is OK as long as the material keeps up with the friction limits of 0.5. Yes, abrasive degradation of rubber may be some pain-in-the-ass on the pimpsters, seeing that friction detector is underway.
Be happy.

Using long pips is OK as long as the material keeps in line with the friction limits of 0.5. Yes, abrasive degradation of rubber may be some pain in the ass with the longpimpsters, seeing that friction detector is now underway.
Be happy.