Question about H3Neo

[DukeGaGa]

Yeah I have been debating whether or not to get into the whole boosting experience. For sending a bottle, its kinda bulky right? it might cost more for shipping?

Well, it really depends on how much time you want to spend every so often to take your rubbers off and re-boost them. Right now I re-boost my rubbers roughly once every month, I put the booster on Wednesday night, two layers with a few hours in between, then I glue the rubbers Thursday night, or Friday night depending on how much curl the rubber has (newer rubbers tends to curl up more in my experience). This way I can make sure I can use it to play at the club on weekends.

As for shipping I use usps flat rate, so it'll be the same $10.

 

[DukeGaGa]

without going into details, but it has been known that some rubbers lend themselves better for boosting than others.
Of course you will not likely find a list of " boostable" rubbers , because boosting in any way is of course illegal, unless it has been done by the manufacturer AND has therefore been ITTF approved..............................................hang on a minute, that sounds all wrong, that would mean ITTF says yes to boosting 🤣

I thought ITTF doesn't care if it's boosted as long as the VOC detector says it's ok.

 

[brokenball]

And you're just ignorant. You're saying that DHS got a complete new production line to put on that layer of glue, and a new packaging line in their factory, just to sell us the same rubber?

It is called "marketing". I see in on boxes in the store all the time. New and improved!

Also, logic is not on your side:
Let's assume your comment on the "gas filling pores" is correct. How does it fill in the pores? There has to be a way for the booster to go into the pores, but a way in also means a way out, there a reason rubber balls or tires don't bounce as good if there's a hole in them.

There are open and closed cell foam rubbers. i have posted a link to it before. Closed cell foam rubbers are water proof. Open cell rubbers will let fluids sink in.

Not to mention that, sponge doesn't get all its bounciness from gas being compressed, the more pronounced effect is the structure of the sponge, it's the elasticity of the material itself, not the gas in the miniscule pores. Or maybe you don't believe rubber bands exist?

The foam rubber will return some energy but the gas returns more. Again, you don't fill your tires with foam rubber/sponge.

[/quote]
The booster is stretching out the structures of the sponge and rubber, like stretching out a spring.
[/quote]
What is stretching the rubber? The fluid or the gas?

If it's stretched out a little, it gets a little more springy, but if it's stretched out too much or too frequent, it loses its structure integrity and either breaks or doesn't go back to its original shape.

What part of the sponge becomes more springy? The amount of sponge material isn't changing.

Also, it is easy to do a bounce test, so why not do it yourself? Or is it not agreeing with your belief so you don't want to try it?

I have posted before that the bounce test can be used to compute the coefficient of restitution. This would provide true speed and spin rating instead of the snake oil the TT manufacturers are selling us.

I have done bounce tests. I do it all the time to see when my rubbers are degrading. One of my most recent was for a sheet of H3NEO which was dead. I just don't measure that accurately. When it doubt, throw it out.

P.S. there's a reason why you need to take the film off the top sheet when boosting H3. It limits the top sheet from stretching out, making it virtually impossible to glue the rubber because it curls up too bad since the sponge side has expanded so much.

Tell us. What is expanding?

In hydraulics there are often accumulators that store water or oil in a container that is has a pressurized bladder that is usually filled with nitrogen. Accumulators are found in water systems. Even my RV has a small accumulator. In industry there are oil accumulators. Accumulators store energy in the gas/ nitrogen, not in the fluid itself.
Why don't you fill your tires up with foam and boost it?

I wonder how much weight that would add to the tire? I wonder how much weight the booster adds the to sponge.
When the rubber decompresses it must now accelerate not only the ball but also the top sheet, sponge AND the booster. That doesn't sound as fast as only accelerating the ball, top sheet and the sponge.

What is the density of the sponge? Assume the ball makes contact with 1 sq cm of the rubber and the sponge is 2mm thick. How much does the booster add to the mass of the sponge? I know.

 

[lodro]

I thought ITTF doesn't care if it's boosted as long as the VOC detector says it's ok.

you might be correct but of course somewhere in the rules it says that we are not allowed to do ANYTHING to the rubbers.
They have to be used the way they come from the factory.
I think it also says that we are not allowed to use cleaning products other than water

 

[lodro]

Booster fluid is applied to the sponge It gets soaked up by the sponge The chemical reaction over the next (roughly ) 8 hours expands the sponge. after this time nothing remains of the booster inside the sponge, the chemical reaction is completed and the sponge is boosted. Time for another layer of booster 😎

 

[Michael Zhuang]

This guy is pretty good player. He seems to believe the baby oil is effective on H3. But there isnt a comparison with unboosted H3 to know for sure the benefit of baby oil.

 

[lodro]

This guy is pretty good player. He seems to believe the baby oil is effective on H3. But there isnt a comparison with unboosted H3 to know for sure the benefit of baby oil.

there is no need to take my word for it , however, I have done the test many times, there is a huuuuuge difference between
a unboosted rubber and a rubber boosted with the baby oil

 

[Michael Zhuang]

there is no need to take my word for it , however, I have done the test many times, there is a huuuuuge difference between
a unboosted rubber and a rubber boosted with the baby oil

Yes, what are the effects in your opinion? Speed? Speed?

Which rubbers have you tested it on? Which rubbers react well to baby oil and which rubbers dont work well?

 

[DukeGaGa]

......

Too much to quote, and took you long enough to type that messy post, I'm not even going to try to clean it up.

You only responded to the part you have a "reason", but fails to respond to the parts you don't have one. For example you say "open cell rubbers will let fluids sink in", but fails to mention that what happens after it sinks in. Or are you not aware of that gas is also a fluid? You also failed to respond to the more important part of my comment "if there's a way in there's a way out", and if the booster goes in as a liquid form but turns into gas later, it'll be easier for it to get out, meaning your statement is completely without logic.

As to your question "What is stretching the rubber? The fluid or the gas?" The answer is neither. It's the molecules binding to the sponge and rubber. Again with the spring analogy, it's like putting an soft wedge in between the spacing of spring, it stretches the spring out. But eventually after a period of time, the wedge gets compressed forced out of the spacing.

And to your "What is expanding?"
Do you not read? Sponge, rubber.

Also, why are you talking about hydraulics? And what are you talking about "When the rubber decompresses it must now accelerate not only the ball but also the top sheet, sponge AND the booster. That doesn't sound as fast as only accelerating the ball, top sheet and the sponge."

That's not how elasticity it works, or have you not learnt physics? Oh and btw, when liquid turns to a gas, the mass doesn't change... so what happened to F=ma?

And... you say "no evidence" to other people's comments, but where's yours?

 

[Der_Echte]

Wow. Just 3 hours and already 20+ comments on a thread about a rubber that already has 295 threads about the same thing in the last 5 years.

If only the Tsos would register and talk on TTD, then answers would be there early in the thread without the need for TTD members to display utter fanboy behavior with zero to negative incisiveness. If the H3 fanboys would actually learn how to play the sport, they would gain skill and likely a higher level of satisfaction in the sport. Being a fanboy might very well be why they are not married...

... and if the Fanboy is married and does TT fanboy stuff, then it usually gets like this pic pretty quick...

 

[DukeGaGa]

Wow. Just 3 hours and already 20+ comments on a thread about a rubber that already has 295 threads about the same thing in the last 5 years.

If only the Tsos would register and talk on TTD, then answers would be there early in the thread without the need for TTD members to display utter fanboy behavior with zero to negative incisiveness. If the H3 fanboys would actually learn how to play the sport, they would gain skill and likely a higher level of satisfaction in the sport. Being a fanboy might very well be why they are not married...

... and if the Fanboy is married and does TT fanboy stuff, then it usually gets like this pic pretty quick...

Actually it has turned into a thread about how booster works, or maybe even wtf is physics and chemistry lol

 

[DukeGaGa]

you might be correct but of course somewhere in the rules it says that we are not allowed to do ANYTHING to the rubbers.
They have to be used the way they come from the factory.
I think it also says that we are not allowed to use cleaning products other than water

Yeah, I remember reading that part. It's kind of vague since "glueing" is technically using chemicals to "treat" the rubber, i.e. making it has enough stickiness to be able to stay on the blade 🤣 So if boosting is part of the glueing process, and does not emit VOC's that's over the limit, it should be legal.

Also, Haifu booster actually says "solubility bond" on the bottle, booster is just what we call it lol

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Come to think of it, Im surprised there isnt a tackiness booster to apply on the front of the rubber. Restore the tackiness of H3 to original level, or turn Dignics 05 into 09c.

 

[BlackCat510]

In my opinion, the lack of appeal of unboosted NEO Hurricane 3 can be explained by gears.

Imagine 3 gears:
1st gear — low impact shots (serve, short game, brushy Timo Boll style open ups, drop shots etc)
2nd gear — medium impact shots (strong flicking, normal looping, blocking etc)
3rd gear — high impact shots (full max, pro level power looping)

The great strength of unboosted Hurricane 3 NEO is in the 1st and 3rd gears — the 1st gear can be played very short and with much spin (because of the stickiness and hard sponge) and the 3rd gear can be played with enourmous power and spin, if you are hitting with massive power (because of deforming the hard sponge).

This isn’t a property desirable for most amateurs or most pros. Amateurs don’t regularly hit hard enough to reach the third gear (in which the power of a 53° Chinese sponge overcomes that of a 47.5° tensor sponge). Pros can reach this gear, but clearly have their own reasons for not using it unboosted (I imagine it is because they can either boost it or use a tacky tensor of a similar sponge hardness, but with greater ease of use).

Also, pros probably can’t play perfect shots all the time, so benefit from the ease of use of tensors.

One difference between the Euro and Chinese players is that Chinese players are never forced to play the uncomfortable scooping, loopy shots that European players play when out of position, because of their superior footwork. Unboosted H3neo is notoriously difficult to use when playing out of position and is not desirable for players who can’t always play a perfect shot, including most pros.

Mid hard Tensors are too bouncy for the first gear and are too soft for the third gear, but have the perfect balance of speed and spin for the 2nd gear: flicking, blocking and most of all, looping. This is what makes them attractive for amateurs, I believe, even if amateurs like me would benefit far more from the great 1st gear of a tacky rubber and the confidence to hit hard in the second gear, without overshooting the table. Boosting rubbers can help tacky rubbers overcome some of this 2nd gear disadvantage, which is presumably why most people boost them.

In conclusion, H3neo is too difficult or uninspiring for amateurs and too inferior to boosting or the hard/semi tacky tensors (such as Dignics 09C or Tenergy 05 Hard) for the pros.

Under rated rubber IMO.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

In my opinion, the lack of appeal of unboosted NEO Hurricane 3 can be explained by gears.

Imagine 3 gears:
1st gear — low impact shots (serve, short game, brushy Timo Boll style open ups, drop shots etc)
2nd gear — medium impact shots (strong flicking, normal looping, blocking etc)
3rd gear — high impact shots (full max, pro level power looping)

The great strength of unboosted Hurricane 3 NEO is in the 1st and 3rd gears — the 1st gear can be played very short and with much spin (because of the stickiness and hard sponge) and the 3rd gear can be played with enourmous power and spin, if you are hitting with massive power (because of deforming the hard sponge).

This isn’t a property desirable for most amateurs or most pros. Amateurs don’t regularly hit hard enough to reach the third gear (in which the power of a 53° Chinese sponge overcomes that of a 47.5° tensor sponge). Pros can reach this gear, but clearly have their own reasons for not using it unboosted (I imagine it is because they can either boost it or use a tacky tensor of a similar sponge hardness, but with greater ease of use).

Also, pros probably can’t play perfect shots all the time, so benefit from the ease of use of tensors.

One difference between the Euro and Chinese players is that Chinese players are never forced to play the uncomfortable scooping, loopy shots that European players play when out of position, because of their superior footwork. Unboosted H3neo is notoriously difficult to use when playing out of position and is not desirable for players who can’t always play a perfect shot, including most pros.

Mid hard Tensors are too bouncy for the first gear and are too soft for the third gear, but have the perfect balance of speed and spin for the 2nd gear: flicking, blocking and most of all, looping. This is what makes them attractive for amateurs, I believe, even if amateurs like me would benefit far more from the great 1st gear of a tacky rubber and the confidence to hit hard in the second gear, without overshooting the table. Boosting rubbers can help tacky rubbers overcome some of this 2nd gear disadvantage, which is presumably why most people boost them.

In conclusion, H3neo is too difficult or uninspiring for amateurs and too inferior to boosting or the hard/semi tacky tensors (such as Dignics 09C or Tenergy 05 Hard) for the pros.

Under rated rubber IMO.

Yeah makes sense. I have found my favorite rubbers are tacky but lively Chinese rubbers, such as Bloom Power, Battle 2, Reactor Tornado/Thunder, Big Dipper.

How would those rubbers fair in your 1, 2, 3rd gear framework?

 

[lodro]

Being a fanboy might very well be why they are not married...

You therefore propose that the best and ideal way is ""to be married"" this qualifies probably for the most idiotic statement of
the year,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and it is only february 🤣

The best way to live is on your own in a remote place with plenty of time for meditation. This will allow you to
reach enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings. (The ungrateful bastards 😁 )

 

[lodro]

Come to think of it, Im surprised there isnt a tackiness booster to apply on the front of the rubber. Restore the tackiness of H3 to original level, or turn Dignics 05 into 09c.

actually baby oil works quite well on the rubber surface to make it sticky again, so iis WD40

 

[BlackCat510]

Yeah makes sense. I have found my favorite rubbers are tacky but lively Chinese rubbers, such as Bloom Power, Battle 2, Reactor Tornado/Thunder, Big Dipper.

How would those rubbers fair in your 1, 2, 3rd gear framework?

The only rubber out of those I have played is 729 Battle 2. I found it had a lower arc than H3neo and was bouncy enough to make playing with brute force too difficult (I just overshot or hit the net all the time), so I preferred H3neo.

In the gear 1, 2, 3 framework, I think that the differences they have will depend on their sponge hardness. The issue I was pointing out was that different sponge hardnesses make the three different gears play very differently— if one lively Chinese rubber has a 47.5° sponge, comparisons with a Chinese rubber with a 53° sponge cannot be made, because the whole issue is based around sponge hardness.

Personally, I found that the lower arc and slight increase in bounciness of battle 2 really messed up my game — I couldn’t feel a significant change in sponge hardness, but the throw angle change meant that my stroke angle became really uncomfortable. But I understand the appeal of sticky rubbers that aren’t completely rock hard — I now play with a non-bouncy tensor (Fastarc G1)!

I honestly think that the whole ‘Tacky rubber vs Tensor’ argument is over now that basically all Butterfly pros play with a 55° semi tacky rubber on forehand and the Chinese pros nearly all play with semi-tacky rubbers on backhand. The whole ‘tacky rubber fh/tensor bh’ for Chinese players, ‘tensor fh/tensor bh’ for Eurojap players has become so outdated and the actual way players from different countries play have blurred so much. The ‘sticky’ tensors and ‘lively’ Chinese rubbers have made it even more difficult to make generalisations.

But I am an amateur and someone with more experience can give you much better advice.

 

[brokenball]

And you're just ignorant.

Do have even a clue as to whom you are calling ignorant? That shows ignorance.
And WTFRU? What have you achieved?

You're saying that DHS got a complete new production line to put on that layer of glue, and a new packaging line in their factory, just to sell us the same rubber?

Yes, it is called marketing. The rubber is new and improved! I see this on boxes in the stores all the time.
So? What does that prove? Why doesn't DHS actually test their rubber and publish tangential and normal COR.

Also, logic is not on your side:

Here we go. Should I bite your head off at the ankles?

Let's assume your comment on the "gas filling pores" is correct. How does it fill in the pores? There has to be a way for the booster to go into the pores, but a way in also means a way out, there a reason rubber balls or tires don't bounce as good if there's a hole in them.

This has been discussed a few times. This is a topic that zeio and I agree on. There are closed and open cell foam rubbers. The closed cell rubbers are used to make dry suits for diving. Rubbers that have closed cells will not let the booster soak in. The open cell foam rubbers will let the booster soak in but it will also let the gases escape rather quickly.

Not to mention that, sponge doesn't get all its bounciness from gas being compressed, the more pronounced effect is the structure of the sponge, it's the elasticity of the material itself, not the gas in the miniscule pores.

Define bounciness.
Again, do you fill your tires with sponge?
Think about it.

Or maybe you don't believe rubber bands exist?

What does that have to do with anything? Sponge doesn't stretch like rubber bands.

The booster is stretching out the structures of the sponge and rubber, like stretching out a spring. If it's stretched out a little, it gets a little more springy, but if it's stretched out too much or too frequent, it loses its structure integrity and either breaks or doesn't go back to its original shape.

The rubber isn't permeable over a short time with the big molecules of the booster. The sponge may be. So what expands? Explain this to the forum.

Also, it is easy to do a bounce test, so why not do it yourself? Or is it not agreeing with your belief so you don't want to try it?

I do and i have. In fact one of the last rubbers I tested was H3Neo and it was dead so I trashed it.

 

[DukeGaGa]

Do have even a clue as to whom you are calling ignorant? That shows ignorance.
And WTFRU? What have you achieved?


Yes, it is called marketing. The rubber is new and improved! I see this on boxes in the stores all the time.
So? What does that prove? Why doesn't DHS actually test their rubber and publish tangential and normal COR.


Here we go. Should I bite your head off at the ankles?


This has been discussed a few times. This is a topic that zeio and I agree on. There are closed and open cell foam rubbers. The closed cell rubbers are used to make dry suits for diving. Rubbers that have closed cells will not let the booster soak in. The open cell foam rubbers will let the booster soak in but it will also let the gases escape rather quickly.


Define bounciness.
Again, do you fill your tires with sponge?
Think about it.


What does that have to do with anything? Sponge doesn't stretch like rubber bands.


The rubber isn't permeable over a short time with the big molecules of the booster. The sponge may be. So what expands? Explain this to the forum.


I do and i have. In fact one of the last rubbers I tested was H3Neo and it was dead so I trashed it.

Well, good for you then. I'm done trying to explain science to people like you, so believe whatever you want.