Shuki Development and Questions

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@ ttmonster

do You think if dima had his body facing toward the table instead of sideways he'd still use his left foot to stomp?



Imagine a right handed player

For forehands you transfer weight from the right side to the left for power. You're telling me on backhand's I also want to transfer from the right to the left?
 
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Shuki,
The weight transfer is always "into" the ball. When you are serving forehand pendulum you are facing 90 degrees to the table with your left foot in front .

So the transfer is from right foot to left foot into the ball , which should be in front of you. now the motion is not complete with the mandatory movement of the left foot to the side and then the reset hop.


When you are serving backhand your motions should start with your right foot in front if you and you should be getting into the ball and end up with your left foot in front.

I am not sure if you are visualizing the motion correctly, when you start doing it , it will become much more obvious....


I think you have been studying other aspects of table tennis till now , focus on serving as NL/Carl suggested and things will become clear.
@ ttmonster

do You think if dima had his body facing toward the table instead of sideways he'd still use his left foot to stomp?



Imagine a right handed player

For forehands you transfer weight from the right side to the left for power. You're telling me on backhand's I also want to transfer from the right to the left?
 
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Shuki,
The weight transfer is always "into" the ball. When you are serving forehand pendulum you are facing 90 degrees to the table with your left foot in front .

So the transfer is from right foot to left foot into the ball , which should be in front of you. now the motion is not complete with the mandatory movement of the left foot to the side and then the reset hop.


When you are serving backhand your motions should start with your right foot in front if you and you should be getting into the ball and end up with your left foot in front.

I am not sure if you are visualizing the motion correctly, when you start doing it , it will become much more obvious....


I think you have been studying other aspects of table tennis till now , focus on serving as NL/Carl suggested and things will become clear.

I toss the ball a bit up to my right, so moving from left to right WOULD be going into the ball. Secondly I've already talked about how service isn't something I'll be having a chance of practicing any time soon. All my serves are learned from in game situations. I don't believe there's a right or wrong foot to stomp with on service. It depends on the motion of the player. Like some pendulum players stomp with their left foot and don't turn the way I do.
 
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Good to know ... :)
I toss the ball a bit up to my right, so moving from left to right WOULD be going into the ball. Secondly I've already talked about how service isn't something I'll be having a chance of practicing any time soon. All my serves are learned from in game situations. I don't believe there's a right or wrong foot to stomp with on service. It depends on the motion of the player. Like some pendulum players stomp with their left foot and don't turn the way I do.
 
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I toss the ball a bit up to my right, so moving from left to right WOULD be going into the ball. Secondly I've already talked about how service isn't something I'll be having a chance of practicing any time soon. All my serves are learned from in game situations. I don't believe there's a right or wrong foot to stomp with on service. It depends on the motion of the player. Like some pendulum players stomp with their left foot and don't turn the way I do.

Good point... But i think as a rigth hander you almost need to stomp with your left foot, so you can then move with your right foot into position. and be ready to play a forehand.
 
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I toss the ball a bit up to my right, so moving from left to right WOULD be going into the ball. Secondly I've already talked about how service isn't something I'll be having a chance of practicing any time soon. All my serves are learned from in game situations. I don't believe there's a right or wrong foot to stomp with on service. It depends on the motion of the player. Like some pendulum players stomp with their left foot and don't turn the way I do.

Come on buddy... someone is telling you something that if you understand it can improve your game. You just need to figure out what he is really saying and what you really need to get out of it.
 
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Shuki, if I understand why your serve recovery is no good, then you should as well. I don't see the point in defending it: the drawbacks outweigh the theoretical benefits IMO.

I implemented a pivot-step into my serve because I needed the shorter recovery time, at MY level. I cannot understand why people don't exploit your recovery. Perhaps because their recovery is 10x worse and they don't notice.
It's possible that our situation is different, because I serve very conventional forehand pendulum most of the time and my game is entirely based around my serve and serve return, so I have paid more attention to it and I setup balls differently. I am still in the belief that a faster serve recovery is better.
 
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Shuki, if I understand why your serve recovery is no good, then you should as well. I don't see the point in defending it: the drawbacks outweigh the theoretical benefits IMO.

I implemented a pivot-step into my serve because I needed the shorter recovery time, at MY level. I cannot understand why people don't exploit your recovery. Perhaps because their recovery is 10x worse and they don't notice.
It's possible that our situation is different, because I serve very conventional forehand pendulum most of the time and my game is entirely based around my serve and serve return, so I have paid more attention to it and I setup balls differently. I am still in the belief that a faster serve recovery is better.


Here we go again, archo. Shuki's recovery vs. who is playing with is largely excellent. What are you talking about?
 
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Good point... But i think as a rigth hander you almost need to stomp with your left foot, so you can then move with your right foot into position. and be ready to play a forehand.

The principle is to be ready by the time the ball bounces on the opponent's side to play the shots you intend to play against most of his responses. How exactly you achieve that is up to you. In the videos, Shuki is almost always square to the table ready to play a backhand or a forehand. MAny times, Shuki covered returns to both sides well, but maybe the misses are in the edited clips we can't see. Moreover, Shuki rarely serves a forehand serve short, so if he had a recovery issue, it would have shown up pretty badly as the returner's ball would be on him before he was ready to return the ball.

Are there technical things Shuki can improve? Sure. But is this a big deal? We can only tell if Shuki is playing someone of his level or slightly above and is being caught out repeatedly.
 
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I agree with what NextLevel is saying. It looks like Shuki gets ready well after his serves. NL has also pointed out that there are plenty of players who are a decently high level whose serves are pretty basic. It is true. Right now I am thinking of a guy who mostly serves BH no spin serves. Very simple. But the placement is what makes them very effective. They are short and low. And this guy is 2250.

But from a mechanical standpoint, if Shuki wanted to improve something simply and quickly, learning an FH serve that had his hip timed with his contact, it might be useful. But maybe he doesn't need that.

As far as BH serve, I think here NL has the left leg right leg issue correctly. What am I talking about? Here:

In baseball if I was batting lefty, the weight transfer goes from left foot to right foot. In tennis, on a BH topspin stroke the weight transfer goes from left foot to right foot. On a BH chop stroke, same thing. And in table tennis also, the weight transfer on a BH topspin or chop stroke goes from left foot to right foot.

So why do Dima, Ma Long and a host of others stomp with the left foot on a BH serve instead of the right? My assumption, and I think that NextLevel implied this too, has been that the step and stomp with the left foot is about recovering faster.

When you serve with BH, for some people, it can be a little harder to recover to a neutral position after the serve than it is with many other serves.

The step with the left foot looks like it adds some body into the stroke while making the recovery faster. Sort of like how Yan An was serving, in ttmonster' video, with the right foot (read "wrong" foot) forward to be set faster vs Wang Hao.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Here we go again, archo. Shuki's recovery vs. who is playing with is largely excellent. What are you talking about?
True, his recovery is very good compared to the people we've seen him play.

That's the point. I think Shuki has never had to consider his recovery, because his partners might not even be aware how slow their is, and don't see to exploit his. His coach probably doesn't see it as a big concern right now, because he can get by with it. Shuki said he hasn't practiced a lot of serves lately, after all.


But as you said NL, if he can recover fast enough when he is playing someone a bit higher level, then I suppose his method does have it's merits. That we can't tell, from the footage provided.

He is also not serving a traditional forehand pendulum, so I'm personally going to refrain completely from commenting on how effective the motion is with the serve: I don't know how effective it is or if it can be improved greatly. I just know from personal experience that people who are attentive will exploit a slow recovery, and it will cost you.
 
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NL, let me just put it out there, even though Shuki might not like it .

I saw Shuki's video when he posted it and did not make any comments ? Why ? Because, if somebody is really interested in asking people for suggestions why would they edit out the points where there were misses ? Secondly, the recurring pattern in this thread , not withstanding its title, is that Shuki posts a video , people make comments , Shuki will keep arguing about how they are wrong and he is right . He also takes another route, where he only responds to people who he thinks is qualified enough to comment on his video.

Anyways, by this time I was really pushing myself to even answer, because the voice inside my head was telling me not to, so forget about trying to break it down for him :)

Come on buddy... make a distinction between the serve motion and the recovery.
 
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True, his recovery is very good compared to the people we've seen him play.

That's the point. I think Shuki has never had to consider his recovery, because his partners might not even be aware how slow their is, and don't see to exploit his. His coach probably doesn't see it as a big concern right now, because he can get by with it. Shuki said he hasn't practiced a lot of serves lately, after all.


But as you said NL, if he can recover fast enough when he is playing someone a bit higher level, then I suppose his method does have it's merits. That we can't tell, from the footage provided.

He is also not serving a traditional forehand pendulum, so I'm personally going to refrain completely from commenting on how effective the motion is with the serve: I don't know how effective it is or if it can be improved greatly. I just know from personal experience that people who are attentive will exploit a slow recovery, and it will cost you.

Come on ArcMan. Stop commenting based on theory and other people's comments. Go watch the video. Pause it frame by frame. The reset, the readiness after the serve IS NEVER the problem for him.

On the FH serve, Shuki's feet are basically placed by the time the ball bounced on HIS SIDE. That would be the benefit of leading with the "wrong" foot. His racket is usually set in the neutral position ready for either FH or BH as the serve bounces on the other side. There are a few times where the racket isn't in the ready position till the opponent's contact. But EVERYTHING ELSE is already in the ready position so it does not matter that his arm was a little slow resetting.

On the BH serve, guys like Dima start with their hips facing left which makes that step with the left foot more important. Shuki starts square to the table. So he is not going to get much hips into the serve. But he is not putting much of anything else into those serves either. They are slow dead balls. And when he finishes his motion, he is pretty close to the ready position in the first place.

On the BH serve he is always in a ready position by the time his serve bounces on the other side.

So the issue with his serves is not his readiness. The issue with his serves is, what would happen vs a player 2 levels higher than him rather than 2 levels lower than him. It is not his readiness. You can't be much better at being ready than being ready when your serve bounces on the other side. That is actually ideal timing for the ready position after the serve.

The actual issue is, would Shuki's serves stay the same against someone who can pick them apart, place them anywhere and do whatever he wants to them; would Shuki be able to adapt and give serves that had better variation, depth, speed, spin, placement vs a better player; or would he simply get blasted out of the water.

My friend SmashFan (NextLevel can tell you about him) would actually grab one of those serves out of the air and say: "come on, what the hell do you think you are doing? That's a bad serve and this match is going to be boring if you keep giving me beginner serves like that." I am sure someone like NL and Der_ would make someone pay for serves like that as well unless they were being very nice.

So the reset isn't the issue. And we can't tell how Shuki would serve vs a real 2000 level player without seeing him actually do it.
 
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As far as ttmonster's comment about the thread, it does seem like some weird pseudo psychology self help thing going on here rather than the real, straight, desire to improve stuff.

You know, issues like: Why don't I have fun when I beat players better than me while playing seriously? Usually I feel out better players in the first game and lose, but then win the match even though they are better, what do you think about that? Here's me playing a match vs someone I could beat in my sleep, how do I look? Not too different from that thread about "how do I still play with all the guys way lower than me and not hurt their feelings but only play with them when I want to?"

Interesting psychological dynamics to observe. A bit strange and manipulative. But interesting. It actually reminds me of some of the social dynamics of my 13 year old daughter and her terrifying teen monsters, I mean, friends.


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NL, let me just put it out there, even though Shuki might not like it .

I saw Shuki's video when he posted it and did not make any comments ? Why ? Because, if somebody is really interested in asking people for suggestions why would they edit out the points where there were misses ? Secondly, the recurring pattern in this thread , not withstanding its title, is that Shuki posts a video , people make comments , Shuki will keep arguing about how they are wrong and he is right . He also takes another route, where he only responds to people who he thinks is qualified enough to comment on his video.

Anyways, by this time I was really pushing myself to even answer, because the voice inside my head was telling me not to, so forget about trying to break it down for him :)


ttmonster, I am pretty defensive about how I play as well. The right kind of critic/coach hasn't pushed my buttons here for you to see it, that's all. I know most of the people criticizing me so I can put their comments in perspective. But even then, if someone gets to me about something I am sensitive about, then it can be really tough and I can sound like a 10 year old trying to be Jesus. You are a model of receptive play, and it is not easy for others to be like you. I give people like Shuki lots of credit for putting themselves out there and you double credit for accepting criticism that may or may not even apply to how you play.

Someone like Shuki/me, when he pushes back, you just give him a couple of days to marinate because he probably knows that what you are saying has truth but he hasn't understood it yet or is just tired of hearing it because he can't fix it. That said, I think that your comment about the right to left rotation on the backhand serve really threw him off. But I have had that kind of confusion from people on other things before (should you close or open your paddle more to serve pendulum topspin - it all depends on what you think is closed and open, so video helps).

In general, Carl is telling Shuki to get a higher level serve game and Carl might be in part influenced by having drilled with Shuki in person. And it is true - if you serve medium fast long serves with light spin to me repeatedly, you had better have fantastic anticipation and blocking.

That said, what we really need from Shuki now is a video of him playing someone close to his level, ideally for some kind of competitive status. Maybe even a loss to someone he is usually more competitive with.
 
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ttmonster, I am pretty defensive about how I play as well. The right kind of critic/coach hasn't pushed my buttons here for you to see it, that's all. I know most of the people criticizing me so I can put their comments in perspective. But even then, if someone gets to me about something I am sensitive about, then it can be really tough and I can sound like a 10 year old trying to be Jesus. You are a model of receptive play, and it is not easy for others to be like you. I give people like Shuki lots of credit for putting themselves out there and you double credit for accepting criticism that may or may not even apply to how you play.

Someone like Shuki/me, when he pushes back, you just give him a couple of days to marinate because he probably knows that what you are saying has truth but he hasn't understood it yet or is just tired of hearing it because he can't fix it. That said, I think that your comment about the right to left rotation on the backhand serve really threw him off. But I have had that kind of confusion from people on other things before (should you close or open your paddle more to serve pendulum topspin - it all depends on what you think is closed and open, so video helps).

In general, Carl is telling Shuki to get a higher level serve game and Carl might be in part influenced by having drilled with Shuki in person. And it is true - if you serve medium fast long serves with light spin to me repeatedly, you had better have fantastic anticipation and blocking.

That said, what we really need from Shuki now is a video of him playing someone close to his level, ideally for some kind of competitive status. Maybe even a loss to someone he is usually more competitive with.

Why can't I hit LIKE more than once!!! Another great post.
 
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NL, a sense of ownership and pride is necessary to improve any skill. Call it defensive or taking pride, as long as one is aware of one's limitations and knows that there is a lot left to learn , pride will not come in the way of accepting criticism, especially of the constructive kind.

Serving motion is so ingrained in a players comfort level , initially it seems very difficult to change it . In fact, when I started out I used stomp with wrong foot and my first coach made me change it , irrespective of how uncomfortable it was to do that. Its almost asking somebody to put the parking brake before putting the stick in Parking because it would affect the transmission . I get that NL and thats why I posted a video of Dima for him to see.

Now, if I am in doubt and I have access to internet, why can't I watch any of the pro players like Kreanga/Persson/Mattias Karlsson who tend to serve with backhand and watch their motion to get clues ? There is a weight transfer and hip rotation along with the forearm-wrist combo snap that is involved in most serving motions. The degree of these components vary between serves but the weight transfer and hip rotation is a common theme for most serves, unless you are somehow challenged and have to limit yourself to certain movements. That is the reason why I initially asked him to consult his coach, and then when he insisted, to look at Dima's video.

The point is learning life skills is much more important than improving table tennis and this sport gives a wonderful opportunity to learn life skills. Challenged as we are in terms of quality training, coaching etc due to various reasons, and seeing how most of the discussions in this forum is constructive and well intended , I find it baffling that people like Shuki who frequent this forum so much , still can't open up enough to accept constructive criticism. He has seen me interacting with a variety of people, including our resident evil and creating threads asking for feedback. He is old enough to take that into account and react rationally. In the long term , in any field attitude makes the difference, you give a person a few chances , or a lot of chances like Carl did for Archo , but you have to also evaluate the resources one has access to before taking a judgment call on how much slack you can cut for that person ... :)
 
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