Spinny serves

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Sep 2022
100
13
147
Read 3 reviews
Hi, I was thinking about changing my rubbers. I would like to have a rubber that's very spinny on serves. These are the rubbers I am interested in:
-Donic Bluefire M1 turbo (3)-Donic Bluegrip C2 (2)-Donic Bluegrip C1 (4)-Donic Bluefire M1 (1)
(I ranked them from most interested in to least interested in using the numbers next to them)
Can I please know which one of them lets me put the most spin on my serves?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Sep 2022
100
13
147
Read 3 reviews
Hi, I was thinking about changing my rubbers. I would like to have a rubber that's very spinny on serves. These are the rubbers I am interested in:
-Donic Bluefire M1 turbo (3)-Donic Bluegrip C2 (2)-Donic Bluegrip C1 (4)-Donic Bluefire M1 (1)
(I ranked them from most interested in to least interested in using the numbers next to them)
Can I please know which one of them lets me put the most spin on my serves?
 
says Looking for the BH killer shot
says Looking for the BH killer shot
Member
Sep 2015
151
98
314
Read 8 reviews
So lets assume, the thread owner is not having the time to spent on changing his current service. From own experience I can say that my service has gained more spin and became much shorter with the new hybrid rubbers. I changed from Omega 7 Asia on my backhand to a Joola Rhyzen ZGR and the services have more spin and get much shorter without me changing anything on the technique side. So from the rubbers mentioned I would rule out (for me) the M1s (both) because they would be to fast. So I would give the C1 a shot and if (like in my case) you serve with the back hand, even the C2.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
May 2011
1,133
1,179
2,942
Some rubbers do make services much easier, like the H3. It's not so much that its topsheet is gripper/tackier, I think just about all the popular rubbers have enough friction these days to not slip on low speed shots like a service, it's that it's really, really not bouncy. You can make a big, quick swings with your body, arm, and wrist and even if you don't get the best thin contact your service can still be relatively tight.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jul 2017
1,763
836
2,919
Some rubbers do make services much easier, like the H3. It's not so much that its topsheet is gripper/tackier, I think just about all the popular rubbers have enough friction these days to not slip on low speed shots like a service, it's that it's really, really not bouncy. You can make a big, quick swings with your body, arm, and wrist and even if you don't get the best thin contact your service can still be relatively tight.
The contact is not thin if the blade is horizontal and the stroke is horizontal, the ball will land normal, perpendicular, to the paddle.

I agree that bouncy rubbers may make the ball bounce too high over the net while trying to spin the heck out of the ball. Making a spinny serve is difficult. It takes practice. The height of the toss, the elevation of the paddle relative to the table, the angle of the paddle, how fast the paddle is moving and where the ball makes contact on the paddle are all important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lodro
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
Some rubbers do make services much easier, like the H3. It's not so much that its topsheet is gripper/tackier, I think just about all the popular rubbers have enough friction these days to not slip on low speed shots like a service, it's that it's really, really not bouncy. You can make a big, quick swings with your body, arm, and wrist and even if you don't get the best thin contact your service can still be relatively tight.

it still goes back to technique
proper skilled players can spin the hell out of a non tacky rubber and not "bounce" the ball too far and wide.
for someone who can't really control the rubbers, a hard / fast serving action will shoot the ball out with no real strong spin.

in amateur space, using tacky rubbers does make it easier because the acceleration of the ball is reduced compared to a cake sponge rubber.
I think over the decade, that is why more and more people like to use it (the short game touches are just easier for the same reason).
However, for a rubber like H3, it is more known for it gears and accuracy at the fast/high spin level, and not just short game.
However, it still requires changing your entire technique. Some T05 players can't save their lives with H3 and move back to it. This included a couple of German and Japanese professionals.

 
  • Like
Reactions: lodro
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,395
Read 27 reviews
Hi Dingyibvs,

I would be inclined to so disagree with your assessment. (and agree with brokenball, except he glaringly omitted GRIP PRESSURE out of his concise analysis) (and agree with Tony who was more general in his comments)

Serve is not a low speed thing. To get spin, you really need bat speed, acceleration, and the control of grip pressure at the right moment. Sure, a good, short tight serve has a resultant ball speed that is very low, but the swing and bat speed are high and it takes good technique and execution.
Players fail to get good spin on short serve mostly because they slow their bat down. (to ensure they actually contact the ball, because a fast bat takes a lot of control to impact the ball at the impact moment in the effective strike zone.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: lodro
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
May 2011
1,133
1,179
2,942
Hi Dingyibvs,

I would be inclined to so disagree with your assessment. (and agree with brokenball, except he glaringly omitted GRIP PRESSURE out of his concise analysis) (and agree with Tony who was more general in his comments)

Serve is not a low speed thing. To get spin, you really need bat speed, acceleration, and the control of grip pressure at the right moment. Sure, a good, short tight serve has a resultant ball speed that is very low, but the swing and bat speed are high and it takes good technique and execution.
Players fail to get good spin on short serve mostly because they slow their bat down. (to ensure they actually contact the ball, because a fast bat takes a lot of control to impact the ball at the impact moment in the effective strike zone.)

Oh I agree with that, but if you don't have good technique doing so tends to make the ball go unexpectedly long or high. With a less bouncy rubber that's less likely to happen. That's what I meant by some rubbers can help with services.

 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,395
Read 27 reviews
To answer the OP's question in a typical Der_Echte insolent way, I would say purchase the rubber that is called Matt Hetherington MHTabletennis.com Serve Lessons.

Or if you want an even higher level Trouble maker, check out brett clarke youtube channel. Dude is washed up, he only coaches the India national team.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,395
Read 27 reviews

Oh I agree with that, but if you don't have good technique doing so tends to make the ball go unexpectedly long or high. With a less bouncy rubber that's less likely to happen. That's what I meant by some rubbers can help with services.

Still, just one shot situation (the serve) should not dictate what rubber to use for FH just because it is easier to do a serve, one ought to select that FH rubber based on what is easier to perform the majority of shots. (much better criteria for equipment selection)

 
says Table tennis clown
says Table tennis clown
Well-Known Member
Apr 2020
3,318
1,763
7,142
I think neither blade nor rubber is what makes the great spinny serve. Just about any combo can be made to work.
At present I am working on a serve involving both side-spin and back spin and training up to keep the ball actually on the oppositions table-half and come back towards the net.
I started my training using an ultra slow blade , TSP Blockman II and a heavily boosted Neo 37 on FH. Once I got a high percentage of balls doing what I set out to do I decided that It is best to continue the exercise with my usual setup. The adjustment did take less time than I thought and it proves to me
that it is the technique that is relevant and not the blade rubber combo.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jul 2017
1,763
836
2,919
[
However, for a rubber like H3, it is more known for it gears and accuracy at the fast/high spin level, and not just short game.
What is a gear?
How many does H3 have vs T05?
How does one shift gears?
Does the Tieffenbacher pdf mention gears?
Maybe the rubbers back in 1999 didn't have any gears.
How is one rubber more accurate than another?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
What is a gear?
How many does H3 have vs T05?
How does one shift gears?
Does the Tieffenbacher pdf mention gears?
Maybe the rubbers back in 1999 didn't have any gears.
How is one rubber more accurate than another?

goes forward and reverse mode
a button for turbo too
a secret button for nos

I'm not here to give a science class, so hope you like my non science answer.

You get chefs that have been cooking hours a day for decades.
They can tell you what works and what not.

or you can get a PHD in food, who can tell you all the science behind food and how things "work", but maybe has never cooked before.

well, not here to argue, just here to share.
take it or leave it is my motto for 2023

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: VictorMoraga
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2022
187
82
340
What is a gear?
How many does H3 have vs T05?
How does one shift gears?
Does the Tieffenbacher pdf mention gears?
Maybe the rubbers back in 1999 didn't have any gears.
How is one rubber more accurate than another?


-------------------------------------------------------

goes forward and reverse mode
a button for turbo too
a secret button for nos

I'm not here to give a science class, so hope you like my non science answer.

You get chefs that have been cooking hours a day for decades.
They can tell you what works and what not.

or you can get a PHD in food, who can tell you all the science behind food and how things "work", but maybe has never cooked before.

well, not here to argue, just here to share.
take it or leave it is my motto for 2023


first of all I think that "more known for it gears and accuracy at the fast/high spin level" could use some more detailed discussion.

lets try to discuss in good faith. To answer your questions broken ball:

1. what is a gears?
a "gear" is terminology for the range of speed a paddle, rubber, or blade has. You can specify the type of stroke tested, but most people assume a loop I think. "high gears" means the equipment has the ability to produce slow and fast loop; you have the ability to control the parameters of the loop. "low gears" means only slow or only fast, with less control over the range.

For blades, a carbon blade like Primorac would have less gears as it has a higher minimum speed. Beginner allwood blades also have low gears as there is a limit to top speed. Innercarbon blades generally has wider range, allowing slow and fast depending on how hard you hit the ball.

For rubbers, less to no sponge have the least gears. For standard max sponge inverted rubbers, soft sponge has low gears as they have a max cap on speed. Harder sponges allow higher max speed, thus having higher gears. Rubbers with more reactive sponges or like Tenergy or most "euro" sponges with tensioned non tacky topsheet have higher base speed, thus having lower gears. Tacky rubbers, even boosted, generally have less gears with more control over low or high speed shots.

I don't know the history of the term, but I suppose it is derived from the rear cassette ("gears") on a bike? or maybe gears in a car.

How many does H3 have vs T05?
2. "gears" is a relative term (rubber A vs rubber B) and subjective. There may be a measurable value to directly describe gears, perhaps... As having tested both on a specific blade with my specific technique, T05 seems to have less a higher minimum speed. Boosted H3 has a lower minimum speed, but can have a very high topspeed. (I don't remember topspeed of both compared to each other). So yes, it seems H3 to have more gears than T05.

Now, just saying "H3 has more gears than T05" is not that useful, its more useful to describe the details of how the rubbers work for you, etc.

How does one shift gears?
3. I don't think "shifting gears" is a term used. You just use the term to describe a piece of equipment in discourse. (X has high gears or higher gears than Y.)

4. Does the Tieffenbacher pdf mention gears?
Epar might give an indication toward the gears of a rubber or blade. For example, marble has high Epar at low velocity, suggesting high minimum speed and lower gears. Allround have lower Epar at low velocity. suggesting higher gears than marble. It is also later mentioned that sticky rubbers lower Epar, as expected, and may allow lower minimum speed and thus higher gears. But, there are several other factors in stroke mechanic that might influence a persons perceptions of the "gears" of a piece of equipment, so the relationship is to be explored more (beyond my level of prediction.)

5. How is one rubber more accurate than another?
Maybe Tony is saying that H3 is more comfortable for counterlooping ("fast/high spin level"), or for dealing with more spin in general? I certainly can say I do prefer sticky rubber for countering incoming high spin balls, whether slow or fast.

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Sep 2013
7,259
6,230
15,300
Read 3 reviews
first of all I think that "more known for it gears and accuracy at the fast/high spin level" could use some more detailed discussion.

lets try to discuss in good faith

5. How is one rubber more accurate than another?
Maybe Tony is saying that H3 is more comfortable for counterlooping ("fast/high spin level"), or for dealing with more spin in general? I certainly can say I do prefer sticky rubber for countering incoming high spin balls, whether slow or fast.


I respect your good faith, so I will add my comment for you.

A pool of high level players, say min is 2200, avg is 2400-2500, better ones 2600+ (one of them beat Dima before).
mostly use DHS H3 bluesponge on FH, for a very long time.

When Butterfly introduced 09C, most of them tried it.
feedback is great, but most of them however complained that on very low or awkward positioning (normally FH rallies, away from the table), the consistency away from the table is below the percentage of a H3. Basically the ball will hit the net more than H3.
The same is applied for other hybrids, the reliability is not as high compared to H3.

What I wanted to say, a tacky rubber like H3 is not just for short game play for serving
if levels are weaker, then most will agree that H3 is good for serving, serve receive or what not.

But for higher level players, they will say any rubber is good for serving, but when come to detailed execution of difficult shots. H3 blue sponge is still the best out there.

But then, I also know many players who don't use H3 and use 09C. Like a even stronger player in LYJ.

In summary, to me, physical execution and experience is better than theory.

On that note, these pool of players change butterfly rubbers once every 4 to 6 weeks, and DHS every 2 to 3 weeks.
So data of "execution experience" over 20+ players, I think does warrant my simple input here without requiring to back my comment with "very unnecessary" science.

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2022
209
178
407
I respect your good faith, so I will add my comment for you.

A pool of high level players, say min is 2200, avg is 2400-2500, better ones 2600+ (one of them beat Dima before).
mostly use DHS H3 bluesponge on FH, for a very long time.

When Butterfly introduced 09C, most of them tried it.
feedback is great, but most of them however complained that on very low or awkward positioning (normally FH rallies, away from the table), the consistency away from the table is below the percentage of a H3. Basically the ball will hit the net more than H3.
The same is applied for other hybrids, the reliability is not as high compared to H3.

What I wanted to say, a tacky rubber like H3 is not just for short game play for serving
if levels are weaker, then most will agree that H3 is good for serving, serve receive or what not.

But for higher level players, they will say any rubber is good for serving, but when come to detailed execution of difficult shots. H3 blue sponge is still the best out there.

But then, I also know many players who don't use H3 and use 09C. Like a even stronger player in LYJ.

In summary, to me, physical execution and experience is better than theory.

On that note, these pool of players change butterfly rubbers once every 4 to 6 weeks, and DHS every 2 to 3 weeks.
So data of "execution experience" over 20+ players, I think does warrant my simple input here without requiring to back my comment with "very unnecessary" science.

the strongest attribute of H3 is counter-spin. With the proper technique it can be lethal. It is the rubber for certain styles and players with specific training, stroke, physicality.

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jul 2017
1,763
836
2,919
first of all I think that "more known for it gears and accuracy at the fast/high spin level" could use some more detailed discussion.

lets try to discuss in good faith. To answer your questions broken ball:

1. what is a gears?
a "gear" is terminology for the range of speed a paddle, rubber, or blade has. You can specify the type of stroke tested, but most people assume a loop I think. "high gears" means the equipment has the ability to produce slow and fast loop; you have the ability to control the parameters of the loop. "low gears" means only slow or only fast, with less control over the range.

For blades, a carbon blade like Primorac would have less gears as it has a higher minimum speed. Beginner allwood blades also have low gears as there is a limit to top speed. Innercarbon blades generally has wider range, allowing slow and fast depending on how hard you hit the ball.

For rubbers, less to no sponge have the least gears. For standard max sponge inverted rubbers, soft sponge has low gears as they have a max cap on speed. Harder sponges allow higher max speed, thus having higher gears. Rubbers with more reactive sponges or like Tenergy or most "euro" sponges with tensioned non tacky topsheet have higher base speed, thus having lower gears. Tacky rubbers, even boosted, generally have less gears with more control over low or high speed shots.

I don't know the history of the term, but I suppose it is derived from the rear cassette ("gears") on a bike? or maybe gears in a car.

How many does H3 have vs T05?
2. "gears" is a relative term (rubber A vs rubber B) and subjective. There may be a measurable value to directly describe gears, perhaps... As having tested both on a specific blade with my specific technique, T05 seems to have less a higher minimum speed. Boosted H3 has a lower minimum speed, but can have a very high topspeed. (I don't remember topspeed of both compared to each other). So yes, it seems H3 to have more gears than T05.

Now, just saying "H3 has more gears than T05" is not that useful, its more useful to describe the details of how the rubbers work for you, etc.

How does one shift gears?
3. I don't think "shifting gears" is a term used. You just use the term to describe a piece of equipment in discourse. (X has high gears or higher gears than Y.)

4. Does the Tieffenbacher pdf mention gears?
Epar might give an indication toward the gears of a rubber or blade. For example, marble has high Epar at low velocity, suggesting high minimum speed and lower gears. Allround have lower Epar at low velocity. suggesting higher gears than marble. It is also later mentioned that sticky rubbers lower Epar, as expected, and may allow lower minimum speed and thus higher gears. But, there are several other factors in stroke mechanic that might influence a persons perceptions of the "gears" of a piece of equipment, so the relationship is to be explored more (beyond my level of prediction.)

5. How is one rubber more accurate than another?
Maybe Tony is saying that H3 is more comfortable for counterlooping ("fast/high spin level"), or for dealing with more spin in general? I certainly can say I do prefer sticky rubber for countering incoming high spin balls, whether slow or fast.

So basically, you are equating "gears" to COR?
The problem is that gear shift in distinct ratios.
How can a blade have a higher minimum speed? This baffles me.
The COR is used to compute the spin or speed after impact. Where are gears used?

I see so many posts with no proof, only opinion, many are wrong.


 
Top