Technique discussion fh topspin

[Zezima]

So basically I am doing my c-license here in germany. We are told how to teach kids the specific strokes.

Fh-topspin:

He told us:
-against backspin your shoulder must not drop. It has to stay even.
-don't hide your elbow behind your back (what malong fzd and even some europeans do I think)
- not lifting the elbow. I thought I do it because I am quite tall and see omar assar doing it all the time. Yes his elbow goes forwards and the angle is 90° to his upperbody.
Then I watched ma longs video and he was doing it in almost every fh topspin. Basically his technique would be called wrong as hell if he was here. He does
All these 3 "big mistakes" that we should avoid doing.

Also we did multiball later ourselves.

I could achieve the same quality with a more open racket instead of closed like in this video. Which one should I stick with? My subconscious has the more closed racket programmed currently.
I do feel like I finally do the weight transfer right. My topspins are also very dangerous spinny and fast. People who watch my matches know me doing more slow arm only openers with the focus on slow spinny balls.

 

[lightspin]

1) Do not drop your shoulder against underspin? WHAT?!?!? This is insane advice. If you have great touch and plan on hitting the ball so hard it approaches the speed of light, then fine don't drop the shoulder. Good luck following this bad advice if you play someone who is a chopper or knows how to push even at an intermediate level.

2) Do not hide your elbow behind your back? Hmm, Waldner, FZD, ML and a whole host of other people do this. I would say do not go too far behind your back. One new theory on how to play is keep the elbow position fairly static for both forehand and backhand and use your waist to rotate to pull the racket back on the forehand. It is probably best for the student to do what is natural and only correct things if they are extreme. My guess is players who adapt this new style are going to have serious back issues and not be able to hit the ball as hard as playing the old way.

3) Do not lift the elbow? Again, WHAT!?!?!? What professional player doesn't lift the elbow when they loop, especially off of underspin. You know what happens when you don't lift the elbow and go forward? Your shoulder rises and you get cramped and look tight. You obviously don't want to lift your elbow to the ceiling. Lift it to what seems appropriate which generically is the racket to head height.

I watched your video and your loop looks pretty good. I think the new coach is trolling his students or wants to get fired and look for a new line of work. Which style should you stick with? Whatever you are more consistent with. Personally I would avoid whatever this "coach" was telling you. Go watch videos of a pro you like and then try to imitate them and figure out why they do what they do. Maybe find another coach and ask them questions when you have them.

 

[Zezima]

1) Do not drop your shoulder against underspin? WHAT?!?!? This is insane advice. If you have great touch and plan on hitting the ball so hard it approaches the speed of light, then fine don't drop the shoulder. Good luck following this bad advice if you play someone who is a chopper or knows how to push even at an intermediate level.

2) Do not hide your elbow behind your back? Hmm, Waldner, FZD, ML and a whole host of other people do this. I would say do not go too far behind your back. One new theory on how to play is keep the elbow position fairly static for both forehand and backhand and use your waist to rotate to pull the racket back on the forehand. It is probably best for the student to do what is natural and only correct things if they are extreme. My guess is players who adapt this new style are going to have serious back issues and not be able to hit the ball as hard as playing the old way.

3) Do not lift the elbow? Again, WHAT!?!?!? What professional player doesn't lift the elbow when they loop, especially off of underspin. You know what happens when you don't lift the elbow and go forward? Your shoulder rises and you get cramped and look tight. You obviously don't want to lift your elbow to the ceiling. Lift it to what seems appropriate which generically is the racket to head height.

I watched your video and your loop looks pretty good. I think the new coach is trolling his students or wants to get fired and look for a new line of work. Which style should you stick with? Whatever you are more consistent with. Personally I would avoid whatever this "coach" was telling you. Go watch videos of a pro you like and then try to imitate them and figure out why they do what they do. Maybe find another coach and ask them questions when you have them.

He is the certified coach. We will need to take the exam with those principles. They want us to teach the kids their way.

He didn't say anything about my loop. But I am not following his principles...

We still have 2 more days to go but I don't want to be that guy who questions him all the time. There is already a women who plays for 2 years has 0 technique and talks so much you would think she is an olympian. The other dude with a clean technique like me doesn't question him either. But he seems to be an introvert and very young.

Idk I never loop like this in a match. I always prefer the safe slow spinny loop. This loop in the video seems so risky still. But I got told by some people that I need to open up faster like this. So I will keep working at this. For some reason my w968 h3n setup feels much easier to control than the t19 korbel setup. I will prob get fucked when season starts and I can't get the new h3n sheet to have the same feeling as mine now. But that's not the topic of this thread.

About the elbow lifting. It doesn't really happen in this MB drills. But when I look at my matches it does seem to happen a lot. I can't pinpoint the exact reason why I do it. Same when I watch pro players and when they lift their elbow at shoulder height.

 

[jk1980]

tbh the multiball feeding seemed to have quite little backspin in it (seeing the slow motion of the feeder) which let you have an easy time blasting through the ball which is fine for this kind of low backspin ball. If you are able to to multiball feed with proper backspin, you might ask the teacher to demonstratehis looping technique and then you feed heavy backspin to him. I bet he will fail to consistently loop it without breaking his idea of technique.

Of course your w968 h3n setup feels easier to control, especially if you tend to go with too much power rather then too few power.
With the same amount of power and acceleration you use with the w968/h3n you would probably drill holes into the wall behind the table if you used your korbel with bouncy t19.

especially with your h3n you should be able to feed heavy backspin and ridicule the "trainer/teacher". In germany getting that trainer license actually does not require you to be of a certain level yourself, so basically somebody with below 1000 TTR could be trainer and even if he could not lift heavy backspin if their life depended on it they still would be able to get that basic license.

 

[lightspin]

Good luck on your exam! I would just repeat whatever the teacher says on the exam so that you can pass it. Also I wouldn't even bother asking question to that teacher. It will just annoy him and you might as well just answer the questions the way he wants answered.

Maybe amongst your friends you can discuss what the person said and if it is correct or not.

 

[dingyibvs]

First point sounds wrong, unless what he means is don't bend your waist, but FH loops usually requires loading the right leg, particularly against backspins, which results in the right shoulder dipping a bit lower.

Second point is correct in a sense. ML and FZD all have the elbow beside their body during the backswing, but when combined with the hip rotation the elbow can become obscured to the practice partner. Part of the reason I keep saying that your FH loop is still too arm based is because your elbow always goes behind your body. See below videos for example to see FZD vs. ML's FH backswing:

Third point is something coaches like to say, even though it's not entirely physically accurate. I think what they usually mean is to keep the elbow below the racket. Your elbow obviously needs to adjust up and down depending on the ball.

 

[jonol]

Is the video that you linked the technique you typically use or the one the coach wanted you to use?

 

[Zezima]

tbh the multiball feeding seemed to have quite little backspin in it (seeing the slow motion of the feeder) which let you have an easy time blasting through the ball which is fine for this kind of low backspin ball. If you are able to to multiball feed with proper backspin, you might ask the teacher to demonstratehis looping technique and then you feed heavy backspin to him. I bet he will fail to consistently loop it without breaking his idea of technique.

Of course your w968 h3n setup feels easier to control, especially if you tend to go with too much power rather then too few power.
With the same amount of power and acceleration you use with the w968/h3n you would probably drill holes into the wall behind the table if you used your korbel with bouncy t19.

especially with your h3n you should be able to feed heavy backspin and ridicule the "trainer/teacher". In germany getting that trainer license actually does not require you to be of a certain level yourself, so basically somebody with below 1000 TTR could be trainer and even if he could not lift heavy backspin if their life depended on it they still would be able to get that basic license.

Yeah the t19 was too catapulty flying out mostly. Speed was around the same but the quota went down a lot.

But again close table loops were never my strength. Thats why I default to a slow safer loop usually.

Yeah thats my biggest issue with this setup. Against slower balls on my fh I can even do a really good fh flip. Which I will aim to use more in matches now. I don't even mind if the ball has backspin. The real struggle is to judge the length so I don't use the flip on a long drifting ball for example and maybe the timing.

The worst ones are which also happened in this video a few times are the ones where I am just trying to scoop the ball back. That is just not working with this rubber and setup. It does work much better with t19 setup. So I need to be very decisive with the h3n.

I asked the coach how can someone who can't do the fht coach kids to a good fht.
Man was that a big deal. They all got offended especially the older 900rated soon to become coaches. One even asking me: are you saying there should be a lowe limit in terms of point to become a coach?
I wanted to say that its not about the points per se but the ability to do it yourself and understanding each chain. But to not further make it a big deal I backed out. It's very uncomfortable being alone vs rest. Even winning the argument felt like a losing situation.

Like that women for example the only thing she does right 40% of the time is brushing the ball. Everything else is just so wrong. She brushes with a stop sign and pushing the elbow into the ball. Good luck to the kids getting taught by these soon to become coaches.

The coach itself didn't show us his technique. Only as a shadowstroke. We are the ones having to show it as an example all the time. He himself peaked 1600TTR. So I expect him to be slightly under my level. He stopped training for himself very early in his career to focus on coaching others himself. Since he found that more fulfilling.

 

[Zezima]

First point sounds wrong, unless what he means is don't bend your waist, but FH loops usually requires loading the right leg, particularly against backspins, which results in the right shoulder dipping a bit lower.

Second point is correct in a sense. ML and FZD all have the elbow beside their body during the backswing, but when combined with the hip rotation the elbow can become obscured to the practice partner. Part of the reason I keep saying that your FH loop is still too arm based is because your elbow always goes behind your body. See below videos for example to see FZD vs. ML's FH backswing:

Third point is something coaches like to say, even though it's not entirely physically accurate. I think what they usually mean is to keep the elbow below the racket. Your elbow obviously needs to adjust up and down depending on the ball.

No he said and showes the loop without dropping his shoulder. Only waist rotation and weight in the front.

You mean my elbow goes behind my body during backswing? But you also said ML and FZD does it. Are theirs arm based too you say? Your conclusion confuses me.
Maybe you can screenshot mine and compare to theirs to explain your point?

Yeah they want the elbow to be lower. And maybe in matches where my elbow goes high up are the ones where I am late or the ball is too high or too low idk need to figure it out first.

 

[Zezima]

Is the video that you linked the technique you typically use or the one the coach wanted you to use?

Thats how I would use right now. But I had to think actively about using legs aswell. In matchplay I use only arm. And thats probably the first time I use my legs in a way that it actively gives me the power to the stroke. Because when I did it in the past I did it too late so it looked as if I was using legs but in reality I didn't transfer the energy into the ball.

I did experiment with the more open racket angle right after this video but without filming this time. But I had a different feeder who put more backspin into the balls thats maybe why it worked with the more open racket angle...

But yeah I would have accomplished a big thing if I could transfer this stroke in matchplay next

 

[Lula]

I think the consensus is that with the plastic ball you do not have to drop the arm as much since it is much less spin. As long as you have power and can move the arm fast. I believe in bending the legs instead ang go up a bit ther, then try to go forward in the stroke. If you learn to go up and down to much and get good power in the ball it will go out all the time. But i do think you need to drop somewhat otherwise it will be hard to play slower, the ball will bite down.

Do not understand what you mean with lifting the elbow. As long as you go forward in the stroke?

Regarding your forehand loop i notice most that you have your elbow bent and racket facing forward a lot, so get pretty stiff in the forearm. I think Dan play like this to much aswell. I believe you will have a harder time to get good quality in half long, almost short pushes, need to get use of the foreharm snap on those balls to get spin and since it is little space.
Since you seem pretty good at moving the body i think you will get more power if you can relax a bit more in the arm and try to get it a bit more straight, then the power from the body also transfer better to the arm. If the arm is to much bent in albow the arm get more stiff.

Then technique is very very relative. I have been coaching part time for 15 years. Met a lot of coaches, several national coaches. There is always different ideas and focus.

I believe in trying to do multiball, then if the quality is good and it works for match play then the technique is good. So if you can get good quality in half long balls with current technique then obiously it works.

Also believe that better players that have playey for a while, like you, that it is important to always try to play some footwork and irregular exercises and try to start with serve. Have some players that i feel that they almost develop backwards becuase they want to do a lot olf warm up and just play block agaionst forehand loop. Then they learn to turn up the body to early and stand still.

Keep up the good work

 

[jonol]

Thats how I would use right now. But I had to think actively about using legs aswell. In matchplay I use only arm. And thats probably the first time I use my legs in a way that it actively gives me the power to the stroke. Because when I did it in the past I did it too late so it looked as if I was using legs but in reality I didn't transfer the energy into the ball.

I did experiment with the more open racket angle right after this video but without filming this time. But I had a different feeder who put more backspin into the balls thats maybe why it worked with the more open racket angle...

But yeah I would have accomplished a big thing if I could transfer this stroke in matchplay next

I see. I asked because these shots seem closer to a drive than a loop against backspin. Though others pointed out that the feeder is not putting a lot of backspin on the ball and is giving very floaty pushes, so that makes sense.

I have no idea why anyone would give the advice of "not lifting the elbow" or "don't drop your shoulder". If you are loading your weight on your dominant leg (as you should be) your shoulder will naturally drop. It's impossible to bend your leg and load weight on it without allowing your shoulder to drop (unless you awkwardly lean back).

I also can't really comprehend how you would get any upward momentum on your loop if you don't allow your arm to rise. You should be brushing the back+top of the ball when looping against a backspin push, which means that you should always have a diagonal arm trajectory (exactly how vertical vs horizontal will vary by player and the quality of the incoming ball) I can't think of a single advanced player that loops a backspin push with a completely horizontal motion.

I second what others have said - if you need to agree with this guy to get your coaching certification, then do that. Then disregard his advice.

I would love to see him put his own advice to use in a multiball session, because his advice sounds extremely strange and not at all what I've heard any other coach say, and is the complete opposite of what basically every professional player does.

 

[vossi39]

The things are all related.

Position of elbow vs blade during backswing:

FH block -> blade head higher than elbow
FH drive -> blade head same hight as elbow
FH loop -> blade head lower than elbow

For FH loop (or loop in general) the racket head needs to start lower than the ball hitting point.
If you now combine this, you'll understand why your elbow is moving way back, if your elbow and upper arm are already to much bent and why you then need to also lower your shoulder (especially if you are hitting the ball in falling phase). With a more straighten arm it is much easier to start lower than the ball and keep your elbow next to your body.

You can do a simple experiment to understand this. Imagine you want to hit the ball at table high. You are in ready position. There is a 90° angle between your forearm and upper arm at the elbow. No try to keep your elbow at the angle and move it until the racket head is below table height. You will notice how far you need to pull the elbow back in order to reach this point and that (depending on your starting height during ready position) you might not be able to reach that point, without dropping the shoulder.
Now do that same experiment with a 120° between upper and forearm. See that the elbow needs a lot less traveling to reach that same point and that dropping the shoulder might also no longer necessary. Even less if you open the angle even more to maximum of 175° (never 180° because the momentum for the explosive snap will be lost).

With respect to the "not drop your shoulder" rule, I can only imagine that he meant not using your upper body to lower your shoulder (which is what you often see in beginners training). In order to get lower to the ball people bent their upper body to the side (which is also dropping their shoulder) instead of weight transfer to right leg (in case of a right handed person). And this bending is clearly wrong. This could be clarified with the coach without offending him.

But to be honest. The basic coach license is to teach the basics. And using weight transfer to achieve a FH power loop is already a very advanced technique and not something you start learning with a C license coach.
With kids it is far more important that they get the basics (see above elbow vs racket head position) right and learn to move to the ball instead of reaching for it, learn to brush the ball not only hitting it. This is what C coaches need to be able to teach and correct. If kids are so talented that they already do this right, than they get into special training groups there higher level coaches take over. I'm doing this now for more than 30 years and know what I'm talking about.

And believe it or not. TTR value and coach quality have no relationship at all. You can be a perfect coach with TTR1000 if you are able to understand the principles and stroke mechanics, if you are able to see and know how to correct if people deviate from the basics and yet you might not have talent to do this yourself. And for match play someone with knowlege of tactics is way better than some that does what he does without really understanding this. But this goes beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[sebi]

I would ask your coach over lunch or something when he can explain with time and others don't ask questions.

First of all your weight transfer looks very good now, in the video you nailed it.

So for me there are two trains of thought. First of all drop shoulder drop elbow very low and play an slow safe open up. It's easier for beginners and easier to perform under pressure.

Second is what your coach wants to see.
All the upward momentum you need to lift the backspin, has to comes out of your legs. So your shoulder stay even and everything rotates foreward.
If you are fast enough and use legs and hip you dont need to "lift" the ball.
For me I think thats a technique when the ball has little backspin otherwise lifitig is a lot more safe

Third try to get good pertners when doing the exercises some people can't feed good quality.

Lastly for weight transfer im generall it's not necessary to drop the shoulder to get the weight on the right foot for rightis. Just shift your upper body to the right leg and stay even. So bellybutton goes over to the right foot.
Not saying that dropping shoulder is wrong.

For the exam sake agree with your coach but find the technique that works for you and you feel safe with

 

[dingyibvs]

No he said and showes the loop without dropping his shoulder. Only waist rotation and weight in the front.

You mean my elbow goes behind my body during backswing? But you also said ML and FZD does it. Are theirs arm based too you say? Your conclusion confuses me.
Maybe you can screenshot mine and compare to theirs to explain your point?

Yeah they want the elbow to be lower. And maybe in matches where my elbow goes high up are the ones where I am late or the ball is too high or too low idk need to figure it out first.

Here is a picture of your FH loop (9:49 in your latest vid), which is pretty typical of your FH loops. The idea here is that the arm shouldn't go past the body during a standard backswing. If you draw a line between your shoulder and the elbow, and then draw another between the shoulder and your hip, those 2 lines should be roughly parallel. Obviously in real game situations you'll have to do whatever needed to get the ball on the table, but for this particular shot, it's a mild topspin, fairly slow, and should be a very standard FH loop.



Compared to say FZD in his match against Yu Heyi.


To those who're used to seeing the difference, your problem is quite obvious, which is why many people have persistently pointed this out to you. It's obvious not just because of where your arm goes during the swing, but the timing of it as well. This can't really be shown with pictures, but when you actively backswing with your arm it would move backward at a different speed than if you just relax it and let the body/gravity take it back.

You can also see it in the forward swing. When you're forward swinging with your body, your arm is simply a passenger until right before contact, at which point the body rotation decelarates and the arm is sent slinging forward, then the upper arm decelerates and the forearm is sent forward. Look at where your arm is at contact compared to FZD's at contact. Your arm has moved so much more forward relative to your body compared to your backswing, while his has moved far less forward. Obviously there are many other differences between your technique and his, but that's what showcases a body-driven FH loop.

 

[NetProphet]

So basically I am doing my c-license here in germany. We are told how to teach kids the specific strokes.

Fh-topspin:

He told us:
-against backspin your shoulder must not drop. It has to stay even.
-don't hide your elbow behind your back (what malong fzd and even some europeans do I think)
- not lifting the elbow. I thought I do it because I am quite tall and see omar assar doing it all the time. Yes his elbow goes forwards and the angle is 90° to his upperbody.
Then I watched ma longs video and he was doing it in almost every fh topspin. Basically his technique would be called wrong as hell if he was here. He does
All these 3 "big mistakes" that we should avoid doing.

Also we did multiball later ourselves.

I could achieve the same quality with a more open racket instead of closed like in this video. Which one should I stick with? My subconscious has the more closed racket programmed currently.
I do feel like I finally do the weight transfer right. My topspins are also very dangerous spinny and fast. People who watch my matches know me doing more slow arm only openers with the focus on slow spinny balls.

I would imagine that teaching kids will be very different than teaching adults. Maybe it's about teaching them body control and efficient movement, to not 'overmove' or exaggerate, as it were.
Comparing what someone would teach a kid V what Ma Long does is completely nonsensical.
I teach football to kids and before they can do all the crazy skill stuff that the teenagers can do you have to first try teaching them the entry level basics. Comparing that to what Messi does is going to make it look pretty stupid for many reasons, not least of which is none of these kids can do what Messi could do with a football when he was 6 and 7 years of age!
I'd imagine Ma Long was prodigious at 7-8 yrs of age also and was probably outside the coaching of regular children due to his aptitude and talent. 🤷

 

[NetProphet]

1) Do not drop your shoulder against underspin? WHAT?!?!? This is insane advice. If you have great touch and plan on hitting the ball so hard it approaches the speed of light, then fine don't drop the shoulder. Good luck following this bad advice if you play someone who is a chopper or knows how to push even at an intermediate level.

2) Do not hide your elbow behind your back? Hmm, Waldner, FZD, ML and a whole host of other people do this. I would say do not go too far behind your back. One new theory on how to play is keep the elbow position fairly static for both forehand and backhand and use your waist to rotate to pull the racket back on the forehand. It is probably best for the student to do what is natural and only correct things if they are extreme. My guess is players who adapt this new style are going to have serious back issues and not be able to hit the ball as hard as playing the old way.

3) Do not lift the elbow? Again, WHAT!?!?!? What professional player doesn't lift the elbow when they loop, especially off of underspin. You know what happens when you don't lift the elbow and go forward? Your shoulder rises and you get cramped and look tight. You obviously don't want to lift your elbow to the ceiling. Lift it to what seems appropriate which generically is the racket to head height.

I watched your video and your loop looks pretty good. I think the new coach is trolling his students or wants to get fired and look for a new line of work. Which style should you stick with? Whatever you are more consistent with. Personally I would avoid whatever this "coach" was telling you. Go watch videos of a pro you like and then try to imitate them and figure out why they do what they do. Maybe find another coach and ask them questions when you have them.

But he was referring to what the C license advised in teaching children, not how he himself should play.

 

[Zezima]

Here is a picture of your FH loop (9:49 in your latest vid), which is pretty typical of your FH loops. The idea here is that the arm shouldn't go past the body during a standard backswing. If you draw a line between your shoulder and the elbow, and then draw another between the shoulder and your hip, those 2 lines should be roughly parallel. Obviously in real game situations you'll have to do whatever needed to get the ball on the table, but for this particular shot, it's a mild topspin, fairly slow, and should be a very standard FH loop.

View attachment 41883

Compared to say FZD in his match against Yu Heyi.
View attachment 41884

To those who're used to seeing the difference, your problem is quite obvious, which is why many people have persistently pointed this out to you. It's obvious not just because of where your arm goes during the swing, but the timing of it as well. This can't really be shown with pictures, but when you actively backswing with your arm it would move backward at a different speed than if you just relax it and let the body/gravity take it back.

You can also see it in the forward swing. When you're forward swinging with your body, your arm is simply a passenger until right before contact, at which point the body rotation decelarates and the arm is sent slinging forward, then the upper arm decelerates and the forearm is sent forward. Look at where your arm is at contact compared to FZD's at contact. Your arm has moved so much more forward relative to your body compared to your backswing, while his has moved far less forward. Obviously there are many other differences between your technique and his, but that's what showcases a body-driven FH loop.

View attachment 41885

View attachment 41887

Ok i roughly start to understand now.

What I seem to be doing with my arm is that I do realize it's a loopable ball and that it's slow aswell because how far I am preparing my stroke (long backstroke)

It's like I try to rotate and take my arm as much back as possible to use it on the forwards swing.

Once I have rotated with my hips to max amount I start to take more backswing with the arm. It's as if I do a right arm seated rowing motion with the elbow. Basically pulling the elbow back.

And I have to stop pulling the elbow back even though it happens subconsiously atm. Again this seems to happen if I have too much prep time for the loop.

In the first post where I open up against backspin it happens almost never? Maybe it's the angle.

I have to upload shadow stroke fhtopspin in the next few days. This is one of the things that is taught here to have the elbow visible at all times (in front of the body?) Which I seem to do wrong if I understand you right.

Some others criticized my loop vs backspin but I if I hit it right it was super high quality imo.


How can I fix this ? Multiball and I need someone else standing behind me because the feeder won't see it I would assume

Edit1: in the same video during warmup(first minute where I start to loop) I do it the best or is it still too much?

 

[dingyibvs]

Ok i roughly start to understand now.

What I seem to be doing with my arm is that I do realize it's a loopable ball and that it's slow aswell because how far I am preparing my stroke (long backstroke)

It's like I try to rotate and take my arm as much back as possible to use it on the forwards swing.

Once I have rotated with my hips to max amount I start to take more backswing with the arm. It's as if I do a right arm seated rowing motion with the elbow. Basically pulling the elbow back.

And I have to stop pulling the elbow back even though it happens subconsiously atm. Again this seems to happen if I have too much prep time for the loop.

In the first post where I open up against backspin it happens almost never? Maybe it's the angle.

I have to upload shadow stroke fhtopspin in the next few days. This is one of the things that is taught here to have the elbow visible at all times (in front of the body?) Which I seem to do wrong if I understand you right.

Some others criticized my loop vs backspin but I if I hit it right it was super high quality imo.


How can I fix this ? Multiball and I need someone else standing behind me because the feeder won't see it I would assume

Edit1: in the same video during warmup(first minute where I start to loop) I do it the best or is it still too much?

What you're doing theoretically doesn't really affect quality because you do have good weight transfer and body movement as others have noted, so the power is there. The issue is that the extra arm movement does not add any power but instead increase your stroke length (in terms of time). So you're right that time is the issue here. It may not look like much, maybe just 10-15 degrees more rotation in the backswing and similarly for the forward swing, but that adds up to 20-30 degrees of useless movement within a fraction of a second, with a change of direction in the middle of it. Subtracting that extraneous movement from your motion, and all of a sudden you have so, so much more time to loop the ball.

Your multiball vs backspin looks fine because there is no time pressure. You didn't need to move, you know where the ball will be, and it's a bit floaty. But when it's got irregular pace, placement, and you need to move first before you strike it, that extra time becomes invaluable. You've already experienced it, how on many occasions despite the ball not being particularly fast and you don't have to move particularly much yet you still feel like you're late on your swing. So while theoretically your stroke doesn't affect quality, in practice it does because you often end up missing the optimal timing for hitting the ball in match situations.

Going back to your previous thread where you posted a video of you finishing a match with a vicious counterloop, look at what you did there. You didn't do a purposeful backswing, you just relaxed your arm a bit and then went straight forward when the ball came at you, with your body pressing maximally forward. You don't need to press maximally forward every shot, but the rest is what you always need to do. The backswing should not be purposeful when it comes to the arm, it should just be a relaxation of the upper arm (i.e. at the shoulder joint).

You can probably relax your forearm (i.e. at the elbow joint) a bit more as well, that helps with the forearm snap, but it's generally not recommended to fully relax it like FZD either (he has a really straight arm with his backswing) because that does increase the length of your stroke. You can see in the videos I posted that even ML doesn't fully relax his elbow, and all the top young players world wide do even less.

 

[NextLevel]

This video might help inform the discussion. But maybe not.

What you're doing theoretically doesn't really affect quality because you do have good weight transfer and body movement as others have noted, so the power is there. The issue is that the extra arm movement does not add any power but instead increase your stroke length (in terms of time). So you're right that time is the issue here. It may not look like much, maybe just 10-15 degrees more rotation in the backswing and similarly for the forward swing, but that adds up to 20-30 degrees of useless movement within a fraction of a second, with a change of direction in the middle of it. Subtracting that extraneous movement from your motion, and all of a sudden you have so, so much more time to loop the ball.

Your multiball vs backspin looks fine because there is no time pressure. You didn't need to move, you know where the ball will be, and it's a bit floaty. But when it's got irregular pace, placement, and you need to move first before you strike it, that extra time becomes invaluable. You've already experienced it, how on many occasions despite the ball not being particularly fast and you don't have to move particularly much yet you still feel like you're late on your swing. So while theoretically your stroke doesn't affect quality, in practice it does because you often end up missing the optimal timing for hitting the ball in match situations.

Going back to your previous thread where you posted a video of you finishing a match with a vicious counterloop, look at what you did there. You didn't do a purposeful backswing, you just relaxed your arm a bit and then went straight forward when the ball came at you, with your body pressing maximally forward. You don't need to press maximally forward every shot, but the rest is what you always need to do. The backswing should not be purposeful when it comes to the arm, it should just be a relaxation of the upper arm (i.e. at the shoulder joint).

You can probably relax your forearm (i.e. at the elbow joint) a bit more as well, that helps with the forearm snap, but it's generally not recommended to fully relax it like FZD either (he has a really straight arm with his backswing) because that does increase the length of your stroke. You can see in the videos I posted that even ML doesn't fully relax his elbow, and all the top young players world wide do even less.