Technique discussion fh topspin

[Zezima]

It is fairly difficult to feed very heavy backspin during multiball. Maybe out of a serve and push, sure but just from the hand, you won't get the build up unless you chop.

I could generate easily heavy backspin during multiball. But my peers struggled alot with feeding balls.

I personally didn't even feed a lot of multiballs to others (prior to this choaching week) since I generally train with players who don't even know what multiball is. But I am generally good at creating backspin from my wrist motion only. And it shows in my capability when serving since it's the same wrist motion.

 

[NextLevel]

but I got told if you give them heavy backspin push and they open up that ball, that means they had to overwrite the backspin that you gave them. Let's assume you gave them a lot of backspin so if they open up they have slightly more as a topspin now that you will struggle to block.

Like that information changed my game in a way that I sometimes give them light backspin so if they loop I can block it easier since I struggle more against slow spinny loops more.

Then I tried spinsight a year ago or so. And they said you generate the most topspin on a block ball and not vs underspin because against backspin you have to overwrite the backspin that is on the ball so achieving max spin is not possible.

So I got confused even more. Like what should I do then?

Most of the confusion is between spinny (ratio of spin to speed) and absolute spin (revs/second etc.)

What most people mean by spinny is that the ball has more spin than its speed would convey, so the ball is relatively slow vs the amount of rotation. What you mean by most spin is that the ball has high revs per second. They are related but different.

 

[Zezima]

I think it's down to recognising heavy and light backspin balls and choosing the most effective way of dealing with them.
I have found that there is an evolution after first learning to loop backspin that teaches different ways of looping each type of spin.
For example I know a player (a better player than me) who, against heavy or light backspin balls, can slow loop with extreme rotation OR power through it with more speed, against almost anything.
He chooses different approaches for different players depending on what the can deal with because some people can deal with spin and some are better at blocking faster loops.
I speak quite a bit with him and occasionally we train together and his usual approach is, the heavier the backspin the more comfortable he is to snack through it.
Anyway my main point is that there are options available depending on ability but the consensus we've arrived at (me, him & coach) is that powering through more gives more consistent results V the heavy backspin.
Only felt the inclination to mention it as it was the opposite of what you'd said above.
Not being condescending here at all, I know my level doesn't place me where I can advise most peo but it may be something to experiment with on your end? Or not 🤷

if I understand you right the more backspin there is on the ball the easier it is to loop with power?
In matches it's definetly the opposite for me. In multiball I can't tell yet since I need to do more often first.

 

[NextLevel]

I could generate easily heavy backspin during multiball. But my peers struggled alot with feeding balls.

I personally didn't even feed a lot of multiballs to others (prior to this choaching week) since I generally train with players who don't even know what multiball is. But I am generally good at creating backspin from my wrist motion only. And it shows in my capability when serving since it's the same wrist motion.

Yes, but that is not necessarily a realistic feed and it usually isn't that hard to attack powerfully regardless. One of the things about multiball feeding is that unless the server is actively trying to make you misread the spin, it is easy to lock on to the quality and start killing the ball even when the ball is reasonably good quality. You might agree that the service is good or bad but I can lock in and drive it regardless once it comes long as long as I know the spin level is reliable.

 

[Zezima]

Most of the confusion is between spinny (ratio of spin to speed) and absolute spin (revs/second etc.)

What most people mean by spinny is that the ball has more spin than its speed would convey, so the ball is relatively slow vs the amount of rotation. What you mean by most spin is that the ball has high revs per second. They are related but different.

yes so right now I am trying to apply to use more countertopspin so if I see my opponent doesn't struggle with looping heavy backspin and loops the backspin with a slow very spinny topspin I give him more empty/light backspin pushes (still try to do it fast unless I go for halflong pushes) and then try to attack that ball with a fast block or countertopspin. But it's still a long way to counter more frequently I am at the beginning still.

 

[Zezima]

Yes, but that is not necessarily a realistic feed and it usually isn't that hard to attack powerfully regardless. One of the things about multiball feeding is that unless the server is actively trying to make you misread the spin, it is easy to lock on to the quality and start killing the ball even when the ball is reasonably good quality. You might agree that the service is good or bad but I can lock in and drive it regardless once it comes long as long as I know the spin level is reliable.

The goal here was not to hide the spin. But to feed how you would give it to kids. No kid will loop so hard like I do in that video. So they don't need the skill to feed heavy backspin as of yet atleast. I do think they would require it for the B-License though.

 

[Lula]

I am going through the comments again and wanted to add here that I liked the quality of my balls which I mentioned earlier. And I do agree I can't hit like this on half long balls and usually what happens is I step forwards with my right leg have my racket angle horizontal unless I know I can pressure more and it has almost no backspin then I close it just a little and go more forwards.

Right now I am experimenting with getting my legs into the shot (very exhausting after just 50sec of Multiball) it's burning a lot. Also risking a lot with the speed. Since I can open up slowly very "safely" already this is what I got told and am working on aswell. I slowly start to face players who can smash my slower open ups so I agree with this next step that I should learn to open up more aggressively. And then I have more options and can vary more in my matches depending on what they struggle more.

In the book that they give us there are 9 pictures of the fh topspin against backspin and you can clearly see how patrick franziska drops his right shoulder. You can find the video on the internet from the official germany table tennis account where he demonstrates all of the shots that are in the book.
So why on earth was he so "adamant"? not sure if thats the right word to teach the kids with parallel shoulders? He only said dropping the right shoulder is oldschool and should not be taught anymore and you will lose points in technical aspect if you do it that way.

I am going through the comments again and wanted to add here that I liked the quality of my balls which I mentioned earlier. And I do agree I can't hit like this on half long balls and usually what happens is I step forwards with my right leg have my racket angle horizontal unless I know I can pressure more and it has almost no backspin then I close it just a little and go more forwards.

Right now I am experimenting with getting my legs into the shot (very exhausting after just 50sec of Multiball) it's burning a lot. Also risking a lot with the speed. Since I can open up slowly very "safely" already this is what I got told and am working on aswell. I slowly start to face players who can smash my slower open ups so I agree with this next step that I should learn to open up more aggressively. And then I have more options and can vary more in my matches depending on what they struggle more.

In the book that they give us there are 9 pictures of the fh topspin against backspin and you can clearly see how patrick franziska drops his right shoulder. You can find the video on the internet from the official germany table tennis account where he demonstrates all of the shots that are in the book.
So why on earth was he so "adamant"? not sure if thats the right word to teach the kids with parallel shoulders? He only said dropping the right shoulder is oldschool and should not be taught anymore and you will lose points in technical aspect if you do it that way.

Okey, good that you have found something that works. I still think the quality will improve even more if you are able to relax the arm more in the beginning
I believe in soft loop with a lot of spin or a hard loop. Between is not as good, but if the placement is good and low i think you have to play at a high level for them to counterloop everything.

You are looking at this to much black and white. Im pretty certain that a lot of coaches today teach that you do not have to drop arm as much and go as much upwards as before. Can go more forward in the stroke with the plastic ball, so can have shoulders more pararell and go more back and forth instead of up and down. But i still think you need to have some motion up and down with the racker under the ball, otherwise is it way to unsafe. And surely need to relax the arm, so it will naturally go down which probably lower the shoulder. Also think that you always want to put weight on righ leg and push from it which also lower the shoulder.

What i mean is that nowdays you can play much more forward with the plastic ball so i think the coach is correct in that is more old fashion to go more down and up which was more required before with heaver spin on the smaller ball. But do not have to be so black and white, both of you are probably correct

Edit: i also think the coach can mean that if you drop the shoulder to much so racket get to low and the ball is above the racket then you are forced to play only upward to hit the ball. If you then make good energy in to the balla and can only hit upward it will go out. If bend the legs instead and have racket higher you can hit the ball forward and get more power. Once again probably works better with plastic ball. Same way why everyone can banan flip much harder today and push more long, much easier to counter the less spin with the plastic ball.

 

[lightspin]

But here I got told to always use forearm snap no matter what ball I get. Same with the shoulder drop even though in the fuckin book they give us the example shows that he is dropping his shoulder. I just hate how many information there is out and everyone saying something different. Is this sport really so hard that you can't have a standardized teaching?

Yes unfortunately this sport is that hard. I forget if it was Dima or Timo but they were talking about how their dad would serve short to them nonstop as kids and practice the backhand banana flip. A German national coach told them they are wasting their time practicing that move. The dad ignored the coach's advice and kept practicing it. Who was right? The dad of course as everyone and their cousin is flicking everything these days.

One of my old practice partners hit with Truls when he was a kid. Truls technique and grip are a bit odd. But my friend told me when they practiced Truls basically never missed. Even compared to other pro players. If some coach insisted Truls change his grip or change the way he does things, who knows if he would be as good as he is now.

There are some basic principles. Some things are obviously wrong. However with tools like spinsight where you can accurately measure speed and spin of the ball, hopefully technique can be a bit more standardized than it is now. Everyone's body is different so things won't be 100% standard, but unfortunately right now I can find videos and coaches who disagree with even basic things. That needs to change.

 

[Lula]

Yes unfortunately this sport is that hard. I forget if it was Dima or Timo but they were talking about how their dad would serve short to them nonstop as kids and practice the backhand banana flip. A German national coach told them they are wasting their time practicing that move. The dad ignored the coach's advice and kept practicing it. Who was right? The dad of course as everyone and their cousin is flicking everything these days.

One of my old practice partners hit with Truls when he was a kid. Truls technique and grip are a bit odd. But my friend told me when they practiced Truls basically never missed. Even compared to other pro players. If some coach insisted Truls change his grip or change the way he does things, who knows if he would be as good as he is now.

There are some basic principles. Some things are obviously wrong. However with tools like spinsight where you can accurately measure speed and spin of the ball, hopefully technique can be a bit more standardized than it is now. Everyone's body is different so things won't be 100% standard, but unfortunately right now I can find videos and coaches who disagree with even basic things. That needs to change.

I coached Truls as a kid. I agree the grip looks really nasty and the overall playing style do not look so schooled. But also not such a good example. He had really good conditions as a player, good coaches and almost always played against better players.
But I do think there is a lot of evident in the pro tabletennis world that there really is not a "correct" techniquie. There is small different and ways of playing. I learned not to change grip when growing up, then i look at Boll and Dima, aswell as Truls haha

 

[Zezima]

Also it might be "standard" for some users or young people here but we did many different exercises with a purpose behind for kids learning. For example putting some plastic cups on each corner and then if you hit them both you get one point and so on. And hitting both cups on first 2 balls (from multiball backspin) gives a different kind of dopamine. In the end I hit 5,5 from like 20-30?balls I guess.

I feel like we adults get to the table and play some random drills if any and try to get through with it "painfully" for the sake of training instead of thinking more about what is my goal this session and how can I make it more fun to achieve my goal.

We had different tasks either learning the stroke for the first time or making a stroke better and having to plan an entire 90min session just with that goal in mind with progressive drills from warmup to the end..

I will also try to slow down and focus on fixing one mistake at a time now and force my practise partners more to do multiball with me.
Right now I realized I am actively pulling my elbow back once I have too much time for my backstroke. I basically rotate my hip and once I am done rotating and cant rotate anymore I try to have a larger backswing and pull my elbow back. Which means my arm is even further away from the incoming ball so by the time I accelerate forwards I find myself slowing down or I realize my swingpath is wrong so I open my racket more and then I realize I can't swing full power so I am not using my forearm snap and then realize at the same time I do have to lift the ball a bit and then raise my elbow above my shoulder level instead.
I can see that if I fix this "main problem" that some other random mistakes that seem to happen (elbow raised above shoulder level) be fixed by itself.
So far my guess is that it happens more often against light high arc topspin balls from my opponent. So I will include more topspin vs topspin drilltime in my training session and experiment hitting the ball at different timings and observe if I can reproduce that elbow raising above shoulder level problem.

 

[jk1980]

but I got told if you give them heavy backspin push and they open up that ball, that means they had to overwrite the backspin that you gave them. Let's assume you gave them a lot of backspin so if they open up they have slightly more as a topspin now that you will struggle to block.

But is that really the equation here ? You push heavy because you expect the opponent either struggle to loop the ball at all (because he might not be in a good position to do so and might respond with a passive push rather than looping) or to stop him from looping powerfully (which you can do with a good spinny push). So you rather have a slow and spinny loop that you have more time to react to than somebody basically blasting through your easy push past you.
The common wisdom is that the speed of a powerful loop (due to a low spin push) is harder to cope with than a spinny loop. The later you have more time with because you can NOT hit that spinny push that fast (in direct contradiction to what NetProphet implied). There are many seasoned players that would be able to smash a spinny open up if it is just a little too high.

Like that information changed my game in a way that I sometimes give them light backspin so if they loop I can block it easier since I struggle more against slow spinny loops more.

But did that every really work out for you ? if they dont need to worry about applying maximum spin and can put everything into the forward movement given proper placement you will have it harder to reach their shot (if you dont back off meters away from the table already expecting it)

Then I tried spinsight a year ago or so. And they said you generate the most topspin on a block ball and not vs underspin because against backspin you have to overwrite the backspin that is on the ball so achieving max spin is not possible.

The observation that you create more topspin against topspin vs. against backspin is correct. It probably has to do with the rubbers/topsheets elasticity assisting you in working against the incoming topspin by catapulting it back in addition to your own spin creation.

 

[Zezima]

But is that really the equation here ? You push heavy because you expect the opponent either struggle to loop the ball at all (because he might not be in a good position to do so and might respond with a passive push rather than looping) or to stop him from looping powerfully (which you can do with a good spinny push). So you rather have a slow and spinny loop that you have more time to react to than somebody basically blasting through your easy push past you.
The common wisdom is that the speed of a powerful loop (due to a low spin push) is harder to cope with than a spinny loop. The later you have more time with because you can NOT hit that spinny push that fast (in direct contradiction to what NetProphet implied). There are many seasoned players that would be able to smash a spinny open up if it is just a little too high.


But did that every really work out for you ? if they dont need to worry about applying maximum spin and can put everything into the forward movement given proper placement you will have it harder to reach their shot (if you dont back off meters away from the table already expecting it)

The observation that you create more topspin against topspin vs. against backspin is correct. It probably has to do with the rubbers/topsheets elasticity assisting you in working against the incoming topspin by catapulting it back in addition to your own spin creation.

Yes it works for me. This is gonna sound weird but against the 1900TTR player I prefered when he was looping. Ofc sometimes he hit a straight winner but I brought back so many balls and even won the rallies more often than not (the long ones where he attacked with speed instead of slow spinny openers)

So yeah I much prefer that over slow spinny openers. I just get fucked even if I block because I can't block those with high quality meaning low over the net so they get to attack better with the next ball.

And no I am not contradicting myself here because the first one where I push long light backspin they have to loop from mid distance atleast. But my block vs slow spinny ones if I can land it on the table is 90% short on their side or it lands over the table. And they are really good to put the ball away close to the table. I also have much less time to react.

 

[NetProphet]

I didn't read the entire discussion but I can lift a heavy backspin ball with just the wrist maybe slightly forearm with a horizontal racket angle.

I presume you mean the exact opposite here and instead of horizontal racket you meant to say vertical racket.
This changes things completely.
Lifting heavy backspin with a loopy, slow, high arc ball from a vertical racket is where most of us start when looping V backspin.
But if you want to do it with more speed and quality, then more contact is what you are looking for.

So I would need to test it again what you said

That's why I wrote it.
It's there to be tested and tried.
Personally I have found that it works.

but I don't buy it (yet) that you need a thicker contact and that otherwise it will go into the net.

With a more closed racket angle you need the more firm contact V heavy backspin.
I don't remember the exact wording in my original post and maybe I didn't even mention racket angle but I have also found that if the contract with a more open/vertical racket face is too thin, then the ball is net bound.
Anyway, no point in me tieing myself in knots trying to explain it, we are all playing several times a week so I only shared it to jk80 in this technique discussion as something to be tried.
I originally found it a bit counterintuitive. My rational brain was telling me that if I closed the racket and made more firm contact with this heavy backspin, then the huge spin and angle of my rubber would throw the ball into the table but low and behold, with the right racket head speed the ball shot over the net like a rocket.
Difficult to time? Good footwork needed if the push is quick and heavy? Yes, absolutely.
I'm not saying to anyone that I found it easy.
I was just surprised when I found that it worked and I didn't need the mostly vertical racket and vertical swing to lift it!

 

[NetProphet]

if I understand you right the more backspin there is on the ball the easier it is to loop with power?
In matches it's definetly the opposite for me. In multiball I can't tell yet since I need to do more often first.

I don't know if it's easier. It's definitely not easier at first.
Look, you were dealing very well with those low/med backspin balls in the video.
Someone said that low backspin allowed you to blast through the ball.
I was just saying that this can also be done v heavy backspin if you don't always want to play a high arc, slow loopy shot.
I find that its a timing issue to get it to work, and that's part of what makes it difficult.
Has to be taken at peak of the bounce and in a match good footwork is essential but in drills it's obviously easier.
It's the stroke that you see pros play all the time V heavy backspin, they can loop kill it, smacking it with a fast arc, and deep!
It's because they are smashing into the ball with enough speed to let the rubber (by rubber I mean topsheet & sponge) really do it's job.
It's what a rubber like Dignics was made to do when it's used properly.
I'm not wanting to come across as a know it all here, all of these shots are still work in progress for me.
But I have had my eyes opened to some new things through some decent coaching.

The female Chinese coach with the great YouTube channel also did a video on it at one point.
If I find it I'll share it here.

 

[jk1980]

I presume you mean the exact opposite here and instead of horizontal racket you meant to say vertical racket.
This changes things completely.
Lifting heavy backspin with a loopy, slow, high arc ball from a vertical racket is where most of us start when looping V backspin.
But if you want to do it with more speed and quality, then more contact is what you are looking for.

This we can agree on, for me it's basically nearly the same upwards acceleration, but going into the ball with my whole body which provides the additional power, but still for me that shot is not more safe or easy (at least for me).
So yes, you can get more speed and quality only with a thicker contact and not by exaggerating the spinny loop/just using even more brushing/vertical movement.

 

[NetProphet]

This we can agree on, for me it's basically nearly the same upwards acceleration, but going into the ball with my whole body which provides the additional power, but still for me that shot is not more safe or easy (at least for me).
So yes, you can get more speed and quality only with a thicker contact and not by exaggerating the spinny loop/just using even more brushing/vertical movement.

I didn't expect my comment to lead to so much discussion, it was more a suck it and see suggestion.
But just to clarify where I was coming from.
I believe you initially said he had an easy time blasting through the ball and that was fine for a low backspin ball.
This suggests that it is not possible to take the same approach to a heavy backspin ball, as though the high slow loopy arc would be the only option then.

I am saying to try the same approach v heavy backspin also.
With the right racket speed, timing and a relatively closed racket angle it is possible to take heavy backspin in the same way.

I'm not saying that it's safer or easier, I'm only saying that it's possible.
I find this hugely important and even beginners should know it even if they can't do it yet.
As I said, your initial post seemed (to my reading of it) to be ruling this out.

 

[sebi]

I am going through the comments again and wanted to add here that I liked the quality of my balls which I mentioned earlier. And I do agree I can't hit like this on half long balls and usually what happens is I step forwards with my right leg have my racket angle horizontal unless I know I can pressure more and it has almost no backspin then I close it just a little and go more forwards.

Right now I am experimenting with getting my legs into the shot (very exhausting after just 50sec of Multiball) it's burning a lot. Also risking a lot with the speed. Since I can open up slowly very "safely" already this is what I got told and am working on aswell. I slowly start to face players who can smash my slower open ups so I agree with this next step that I should learn to open up more aggressively. And then I have more options and can vary more in my matches depending on what they struggle more.

In the book that they give us there are 9 pictures of the fh topspin against backspin and you can clearly see how patrick franziska drops his right shoulder. You can find the video on the internet from the official germany table tennis account where he demonstrates all of the shots that are in the book.
So why on earth was he so "adamant"? not sure if thats the right word to teach the kids with parallel shoulders? He only said dropping the right shoulder is oldschool and should not be taught anymore and you will lose points in technical aspect if you do it that way.

Who is your coach?
If you want to see modern technique you always have to look at younger players. I don't know how felix loops but look at him or Lin Shidong. But even those techniques are "old". When they learned it was probably 5-10 Years ago.
So even more modern would maybe be Benjamin Farayi. I hope i wrote his name correct.

To dropping the shoulder it can be done, but you can also just go way lower with your legs then you can also go more forward.

 

[Yurifi]

everybody talking about arm, shoulder, elbow, but no one touches the footwork!?

good footwork is foundation. no footwork no table tennis. you can have perfect stroke technique but without the legs support, it’s not worth much.

and I see this all over the junior categories - great arm technique, but really bad footwork. or even non existent. so … FOOTWORK!

 

[lightspin]

I coached Truls as a kid.

Congrats! You did a great job!

 

[Lula]

Congrats! You did a great job!

haha it was in his first club so can not get take so much credit. I did learn thought that getting good at tabletennis really have a lot with conditions and many times som advantages i think. Really hard probably just to work very hard, need the correct conditions and help.