TT Myth Busters

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Or OSP blades!!!! :)

hahahaha!!!


hahaha recently I tried a petr korbel with the same tenergies I have on virtuoso, and I was like "damn this stuff is frickin hard compared to my virtuoso". If I could convince every amateur player to try it, especially beginners I would.

The only blade I found which had good feeling and was fast at the same time was clipper (they have almost the same thickness of limba outer ply and I believe thats the main reason), but it had definitely less arc on my topspins.

Im thinking on changing to clipper when my footwork and technique are perfect, but then again that virtuoso feeling is just fantastic, Im addicted somehow. I have tried numerous blades so far, but I dont wanna change
 
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An idea of you thought you needed to change. The Virtuoso + plays a lot like a Clipper. I have had a few Clippers. But the weight balance is better on the OSP blades and the two thin plies of Limba next to each other really give it better feeling.

Also with the V+ I asked for them to make it as heavy as they could with the small head 150x157mm. Mine is a bit over 90 grams which is what they say the high weight is.

At some point I will also try the OSP Martin. It is 7 plies and 6mm thick. I have a feeling that plays like the Clippers from the 1990s when they used to make them 6mm.

When I try it, I will tell you. But the Virtuoso and the Virtuoso+ are definitely amazing blades.


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On the subject of this science stuff, I have to agree with TTFrenzy and not just because of the blade he uses.

And if a piece of information isn't quite accurate but it helps you improve your technique, then it doesn't really matter if it is scientifically accurate. And the scientifically accurate statement may not help you understand what you are trying for.

Like, I know I have had people tell me that they can see the ball stays on my racket for a long time when I do my slow spinny loops.. I don't know or care how long that is. But I know, the feeling of making it slow, high-arc-spinny. And it feels like I am holding it on there and pulling my racket past the ball.

As far as the term control is concerned: Come on! We all know it is the person who has the control. But some rubbers are easier to have more control with. Some rubbers are easier for some people to control and harder for others to control. Some rubbers are easier for many people to control. Some rubbers are harder for most people to control. As your skill improves you have more control and can control some of those rubbers or blades that it takes more skill to control.

But saying "this rubber is a bit easier to control than that rubber" is a few more words than most people want to spend on the idea. And saying "this rubber has good control" gets the same idea across in a simple form.

It isn't accurate. But everyone knows what the statement means. It is a convention of language. Not something scientific to get hung up about.

If I said "my nose is running" would you ask me what kind of running shoes my nose uses? Would you say, "your nose it not running. It doesn't have legs. You have allergies and you have an abundance of thin liquidy mucus dripping from your nose because your sinuses are irritated."

We all know what the term control means in relation to rubbers or blades and because it doesn't mean one specific thing it is just a simple convention of language.

I say, get over it.


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While I agree with Carl, I also believe that there is space for the "science stuff" on this forum. I always find it interesting to learn the science behind, and if I can make the connection with the personal experience, all the better!

What I don't agree with is arguing over terminology. I'm sure even Pnachtwey is saying "this rubber has good control" in everyday talk, but using correct scientific terms for the purposes of this thread (ok, I'm not sure but I guess so! :) ). My point is that playing experience and feeling for the game is great, but some could also benefit from the scientific reason behind it!

I see OSP blades mentioned and I'm tempted to ask for more info, but this is completely off topic, so I might make a new thread about it!
 
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An idea of you thought you needed to change. The Virtuoso + plays a lot like a Clipper. I have had a few Clipper. But the weight balance is better and the two thin plies of Limba next to each other really give it better feeling.

Also with the V+ I asked for them to make it as heavy as they could with the small head 150x157mm. Mine is a bit over 90 grams which is what they say the high weight is.

At some point I will also try the OSP Martin. It is 7 plies and 6mm thick. I have a feeling that plays like the Clippers from the 1990s when they used to make them 6mm.

When I try it, I will tell you. But the Virtuoso and the Virtuoso+ are definitely amazing blades.

Ι was thinking about purchasing the Virtuoso+ but I dont have much money right now and I was thinking of buying a clipper instead, which I can buy for 30 35 euros from my local shop or try a used one from a friend

Is it possible for you to provide me with a mini review in comparison with the Virtuoso-?

I would like to know how much (%) the speed gain is and also the loss (%) in feeling and feedback cause after some reviews I read, including yours, most reviewers say that the limba outer ply feel harder and I want to know the difference. Of course theres nothing better than testing it myself and I suppose even if I dont actually like it, I can sell it through the forums

To give you an idea I would rate V- 10/10 in feeling and spin produced and the speed rate would be around 7.5 perhaps 8 (10 would be a rather fast blade with carbon, like BTY Michael Maze). With these criteria, how much would you rate V+ incomparison with V- ?
 
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I didn't say that. I said that it is only gravity making the ball drop when there is no spin.
Yes fluid dynamics plays a part. I have a simulation that calculates the trajectory of TT balls given spin, speed and angle. It requires solving 5 differential equations simultaneously.
I think I said above somewhere that that ball will slow down by half ( horizontally ) for every 5 meters of travel. Vertically the terminal velocity is about 8 meters per second.
You again say that the only thing making the ball drop is gravity assuming no spin. At the same time you seemingly contradict yourself by saying that fluid dynamics do play a part, but you do not offer any form of info as to how that might occur.
However, I'll adjust my question.

How does fluid dynamics explain how a non-spinning, low weight and low density spherical object - such as a table tennis ball for example - behaves in flight, in this case assuming the absence of wind?

OK, I'll simplify it. Ignoring the effects of gravity, will that non-spinning spherical object maintain a stable trajectory without any deviations or will it become unstable and start to deviate horizontally or vertically or combinations of both?
If it deviates, could that affect the balls downward motion under some circumstances?

 
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Ι was thinking about purchasing the Virtuoso+ but I dont have much money right now and I was thinking of buying a clipper instead, which I can buy for 30 35 euros from my local shop or try a used one from a friend

Is it possible for you to provide me with a mini review in comparison with the Virtuoso-?

I would like to know how much (%) the speed gain is and also the loss (%) in feeling and feedback cause after some reviews I read, including yours, most reviewers say that the limba outer ply feel harder and I want to know the difference. Of course theres nothing better than testing it myself and I suppose even if I dont actually like it, I can sell it through the forums

To give you an idea I would rate V- 10/10 in feeling and spin produced and the speed rate would be around 7.5 perhaps 8 (10 would be a rather fast blade with carbon, like BTY Michael Maze). With these criteria, how much would you rate V+ incomparison with V- ?

My V- is 85 grams and feels light as a feather but it is not very fast. On your scale I would rate my V- as 5.5 or 6 at most. I would say it is more All+ than Off- in truth. But the feeling is amazing. I had a friend who is used to carbon try it and it freaked him out that he could feel exactly where on the blade face the ball was contacting. So mine would be a 10/10 in feeling as well.

For reference. My V- is about the same speed as my Allround Evolution. My V+ Is just over 90 grams. (With both I asked for the weight I wanted.). My V+ is solidly an Off rated blade. It is a hair slower than a ZJK Dragon or a TB ZLF and it is about the same speed as my 91 gram Clipper and an InnerForce ZLF. Perhaps a hair faster than the IF ZLF. I personally would say 1-10 it is an 8. But based on you thinking your V- is a 7.5 or an 8 mine V+ is probably 8.5-9 how you are making your numbers.

But if you are thinking more speed than V+ you should try the Martin. I love my V- and I also love my V+. These blades are made so much better than the blades Stiga mass produces. So much better feeling and so much more durable.

At some point I will get a Martin as well. I like the idea of basically having "the whole set". They also made me a custom blade to try out: Limba-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Limba. It is pretty good but, because of the one ply of Limba, it actually feels more like one of those blades from Stiga where it does not have as much feeling as the V- or V+.

I have V-, V+, V'King and the custom blade. For right now the one I use as my main blade is the V+.


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While I agree with Carl, I also believe that there is space for the "science stuff" on this forum. I always find it interesting to learn the science behind, and if I can make the connection with the personal experience, all the better!

I agree that there is a place for science but it is worth understanding that simple sayings that are just a function of language simplifying things, don't need to be made into a big deal. Other things presented I am not 100% sure about but when things are presented as though something is right and therefore something else is wrong, as though things are cut and dry, without the understanding that something that expresses what you feel when you do something can help a person learn a technique, even if the an idea that is expressed does not actually represent what is really happening...I don't know, I can leave the right/wrong thing out.

I see OSP blades mentioned and I'm tempted to ask for more info, but this is completely off topic, so I might make a new thread about it!

I think you got more information anyway. But, here: http://ospblades.com and http://tabletennis-pingpong.equipment/index.php

You can probably get all the info you need. But from the non-info side of things, the Virtuoso (Off-) and the Virtuoso + have pretty much the best feeling of any blade out there.
 
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Well, Der_Echte, I knew you were moldy; but I never thought you would advertise the secret cache of your mold on a TT forum.

Don't worry, they won't crack the secret, everyone failed, even the entire ensemble of ADM/Monsanto backed DNA scientists...
 
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With this kind of learning discussion it would roughly take around 3 to 4yrs before you start paddling your ball.
I would say start hitting and learn the basics to perfection and along the way discuss the details to your student as to this as to that with a proper application so in a way they will appreciate things more clearly.

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My V- is 85 grams and feels light as a feather but it is not very fast. On your scale I would rate my V- as 5.5 or 6 at most. I would say it is more All+ than Off- in truth. But the feeling is amazing. I had a friend who is used to carbon try it and it freaked him out that he could feel exactly where on the blade face the ball was contacting. So mine would be a 10/10 in feeling as well.

For reference. My V- is about the same speed as my Allround Evolution. My V+ Is just over 90 grams. (With both I asked for the weight I wanted.). My V+ is solidly an Off rated blade. It is a hair slower than a ZJK Dragon or a TB ZLF and it is about the same speed as my 91 gram Clipper and an InnerForce ZLF. Perhaps a hair faster than the IF ZLF. I personally would say 1-10 it is an 8. But based on you thinking your V- is a 7.5 or an 8 mine V+ is probably 8.5-9 how you are making your numbers.

But if you are thinking more speed than V+ you should try the Martin. I love my V- and I also love my V+. These blades are made so much better than the blades Stiga mass produces. So much better feeling and so much more durable.

At some point I will get a Martin as well. I like the idea of basically having "the whole set". They also made me a custom blade to try out: Limba-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Limba. It is pretty good but, because of the one ply of Limba, it actually feels more like one of those blades from Stiga where it does not have as much feeling as the V- or V+.

I have V-, V+, V'King and the custom blade. For right now the one I use as my main blade is the V+.

I find it rather weird that V+ has the same speed with clipper. Unless you mean that V+ is a "notch" slower than the clipper

So the feeling is harder than the V- that is okay but still you state that it has great feeling, thats why I want to try it.

Another test for you Carl and Im done! From the blades I have played so far including clipper and korbel and relating to the reviews I read , I came up with the following "rating scale"

Speed : Korbel < V+ < Clipper

Feeling/Feedback/Vibration : Korbel < Clipper < V+

Now although clipper is 7 ply and korbel is 5 , I think clipper is better on feeling and feedback provided cause the outer limba ply is significantly thinner than the limba ply on the korbel

What do you think, do you agree with this rating?

p.s. I would highly appreciate it if you could post some zoom photos of the plies of your V- and V+ for me to check. thanks a lot carl :)
 
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Well, here is the thing. The Clipper I still have is on the light side for Clippers and on the slow side for Clippers. It is 91 grams. The feeling on it is not great but not bad. The Clipper I sold that was 95 grams was faster and had pretty darn good feeling.

The V+ has better feeling than either. The V- has different feeling than the V+. The V+ is crisper and more snap. The V- is softer and more crunch. I don't know if you know what I mean.

My V+ is a bit over 90 grams so it is heavier. So it may be faster than most V+s. But my V+ is about the same speed as the Clipper I still have even though it is slower than the Clipper I used to have. But the feeling is better than that Clipper's feeling and softer.

The speed of this V+ is just a small amount slower than the ZJK blades I have felt and it is about the same amount slower than my TB ZLF.

What am I saying? These things do vary. My guess is that if I got a V+ that was lighter it would not be as fast. My V- is very light. It is definitely on the slow side. I had expected it to be about the speed of a Stiga Offensive Classic. But it is definitely slower than most OCs. It is still an amazing blade and I am happy with it and it was exactly what I wanted from it. I can put the ball exactly where I want to with it, over and over again.

What was the weight of your V-? It will say it on the card that came with the blade.

I have to confess, I was surprised that a 5 ply all wood blade was performing at a speed that was comparable to ZLF and ALC blades and 7 ply wood blades like the Clipper. But, this one is. And it has more gears than those blades. :)

Hopefully that clears things up.

Oh, last thing. I would say, from the Korbel blades I have used, Korbel would be slower than my V+ and my V+ would be as fast as my current Clipper but not as fast as one I no longer own.

From the standpoint of feeling, V+ definitely the best. My old 95 gram Clipper almost as good but not as much Limba feel (one ply of Limba). My current Clipper, nowhere near as good as either of those two. Korbel not as good as my current Clipper.

I think Butterfly makes wood blades that feel dampened. Perhaps this is to keep them from having vibrations. It is hard to explain. But they seem to have a different, dampened feeling. It is good in it's own way. But not as alive and vibrant. So if you like that, the Korbel has decent feel. But nowhere near as much or as good as the V- or V+.

I did feel a Clipper that was 6mm and made in the 1990s. It was faster than my V+ and had as much feeling but much crisper and louder. Also harder. But that was about as good as it gets in terms of feeling from a blade. (I am told as wood ages, it plays better. Based on feeling that blade, I believe it).
 
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How does fluid dynamics explain how a non-spinning, low weight and low density spherical object - such as a table tennis ball for example - behaves in flight, in this case assuming the absence of wind?

OK, I'll simplify it. Ignoring the effects of gravity, will that non-spinning spherical object maintain a stable trajectory without any deviations or will it become unstable and start to deviate horizontally or vertically or combinations of both?
If it deviates, could that affect the balls downward motion under some circumstances?

There is air resistance and gravity and nothing more. What other force must there be when there is no or little spin? There isn't a special SP sink force. Air resistance is non-linear in that it is proportional and opposite to the velocity square.
 
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What I don't agree with is arguing over terminology. I'm sure even Pnachtwey is saying "this rubber has good control" in everyday talk, but using correct scientific terms for the purposes of this thread (ok, I'm not sure but I guess so! :) ).
No, I use the correct terms always. To do otherwise only spreads the ignorance or makes TT players look ignorant. It would be like mixing up further and farther or screwing up English in some other way in a crowd that knows the difference. If you want TT to look like real sport then the players shouldn't sound like a bunch of ignorant high school kids. ( Sorry high school kids hopefully you will grow out of it ).

My point is that playing experience and feeling for the game is great, but some could also benefit from the scientific reason behind it!
Yes!!!! The key is remembering Newton's laws of motion and what forces are acting on the ball at any one time. The second is that the coefficient of restitution is limited in a range of 0-1 and most rubber and blade combinations will be in the range of 0.5-0.7. I laugh when I see a rating of 10+++. The TT manufacturers are basically taking advantage of your gullibility by saying "but this one goes to 11" like in the video I posted in my first post. Doesn't that video look silly to you? It does to me but that is how I see all the TT ratings.
 
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while i agree it's fun to take some TT myths down, i disagree that the myths themselves make TT players look ignorant to anyone except maybe motion control experts. i'm quite interested not only in taking the myths down but also understanding how and why they came to be in the first place, but i know that is only because i am somewhat of a geek and it serves no other purpose than to discuss it over a beer with other table tennis geek friends.
 
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Ignorant people are just ignorant, whether they play table tennis or any other sport or no sport at all.

Some of the "myths" in this topic actually are not myths but proven facts. Its pointless to argue if a player has control and the rubber doesnt. The game is played with a player carrying a paddle so there you go. Keep it simple, there is no need to overanalyse the game, especially when one misses the big picture.

Sports need science yes, but the arguement of who or what has "the control" over the ball does not matter at all.

A player who is not ignorant of his technique and knows what is good and effective technique at every different ball, does not need science to tell him which rubber is good and which is not, he can test his equipment by playing and trying and evaluate what suits him and what doesnt
 
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There is air resistance and gravity and nothing more. What other force must there be when there is no or little spin? There isn't a special SP sink force. Air resistance is non-linear in that it is proportional and opposite to the velocity square.


And none of that answers my question for you. You're ignoring it and instead answering a question I didn't ask. Nice evasive action, but not really helpful for the discussion.

My question is a straightforward enough question about fluid dynamics. I'll give you another chance to answer it. Here it is again:

Ignoring the effects of gravity, will a lightweight, low density non-spinning spherical object maintain a stable trajectory without any deviations or will it become unstable and start to deviate horizontally or vertically or a combination of both?
 
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1. rubbers or blades have power. They don't. You do. Blades and rubbers are inanimate objects that won't move without some outside force. People generate power.

Sorry but this is a convention of language. Come on tell me that scientifically there is no such thing as a nose that runs. And the rest of what I already said. This is stupid. Sorry. It is. There are blades and rubbers that play faster or slower. Someone saying one has more power is just saying: "that is a blade that my shots feel like they have more power with."

2. rubbers or blades have control. They don't. You do. You control the stroke.

I already talked about this one in an earlier post where I said my nose doesn't have legs or use running shoes but nobody is going to run around saying, "My nose has an abundance of mucus that is thin and drippy." A "running nose" is a convention of language. We all know the phrase is not accurate and we all know what it actually means.

Talking about this as though you are right and everyone who uses the convention of language ("this rubber has good control") is stupid, is sophomoric, pretentious and juvenile. There are better things to waste your time with than what words are used to describe the qualities of a blade or rubber. So many of the terms we use are just not accurate because they are being used to describe something about what you would FEEL!

3. SP have a sink ball effect. Well they do but you can duplicate the same effect with inverted rubbers. There is no force or impulse a SP can generate that an inverted rubber cannot.

I don't know. It seems odd that you mention this at all. What different rubbers do is give you the potential to create more or less spin or to not interfere with the spin already on the ball depending on the amount of grip and surface area of the rubber. Tenergy can create dead balls and short pips can loop. I am not sure that it matters.

4. hard rubbers are faster than soft rubbers or the other way around. It is more complicated than that. People talk about how springy a sponge is and that is a good indications of how fast the rubber is but it is really the internal damping. If there are any mechanical engineers here they know about the mass on a spring with a dashpot for damping. No one mentions the damping and damping is important.

The dampening effect is worth talking about but the first part seems a waste of time to me. Don't we all know of hard rubbers that are slow and others that are fast? And soft rubbers that are slower and other soft rubbers that are faster.

5. Thick rubbers are faster than slower rubbers. Rubber doesn't generated energy. It absorbs energy. Given the same stroke a thinner rubber will be faster.

While this may be accurate, when I watch hardbat the pace of the game is much slower than sponge. Part of the reason is that the sponge allows you to generate more spin and this allows the players to put much more force into their shots without sacrificing accuracy. So what is the point of this statement?

6. LPs generate wobble balls. There is no wobble force generated by a paddle or rubber. LPs do generate a higher percentage of dead balls than inverted but basically there is no force an LP can generate that an inverted rubber cant. Inverted rubbers should be able to generate wobble balls too but there is no wobble force. If a ball appears to wobble it is caused by the ball being moved by air currents or eddies around the opponent. It has nothing to do with the rubber or blade because the paddle has no effect on the ball after it has left the paddle.

I have seen balls wobble before. I have seen it off all kinds of rackets and sponges. Sometimes it is because of a bad ball that isn't round or one that has more weight in one part of the ball. But I think a dead ball could wobble the way a knuckleball in baseball wobbles. Is it the kind of rubber that creates this? No. It is the spin or lack of spin on the ball or a defect in the ball. But who really cares. Any racket can produce a deadball.

7. Dwell time is not long. Dwell time is very short. It is on the order of a millisecond to millisecond and a half. I have high speed videos to prove it.

The thing is, a stroke itself is really fast. So of course dwell time will only be really fast because the ball is probably on the racket for considerably less than 1/100 of the distance the racket moves during the stroke. So making it so the ball is on the racket for a decent percentage of time more is big. The difference between a millisecond and a millisecond and a half is 50%. That would be a huge increase or drop in dwell time. So that does really matter.

8. Accelerate through the ball to increase dwell time or hold the ball ion the paddle. Yes, it does increase dwell time but on the order of a few micro seconds.

Again, a fraction of a millisecond is a huge percentage increase in dwell time. That makes a difference.

I don't feel like posting what I wrote for the rest. My problem with all of this is not whether it is accurate or not. It is more that it is a waste of time. It is a bit juvenile. And it just basically sounds like you are saying: "I am smarter than you because I don't say I have a runny nose. And you are a fool to think your nose runs." You are basically fighting the way language works. And it is a losing battle.

And the pretentiousness of it, seems silly because it is not even eye opening information that is being presented. People don't actually think the rubber has control. They know that a rubber which is easier for a person to control is said "to have" "more control".

Is the moon full or crescent? Oh, it's the shadow of the earth that we see on the moon that makes it appear crescent? Duh! I thought part of the moon had disappeared when it was crescent. I did not know it was still actually a sphere. Are you sure?


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