TT Myth Busters

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In baseball pitchers can throw a Knuckleball that is a no spin/low spin ball that is known for it's erratic flight path.
So I would not beat my life on your belief that it is an illusion.

i know, i've seen a baseball do it on video. however, i've never in my years of playing table tennis both against and with long pimples seen a table tennis ball wobble.
 
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thicker rubbers up to a certain point are definitely faster than thinner ones end of story.
This conflicts with Debater/PathFinderPro's findings. Why is there a point where adding more rubber doesn't add to the speed. Show me proof.

I once bought about 6 sheets of HRS sponge of different thicknesses and stacked them up to prove this point.

With everything else being equal the ball will embedded itself more with thicker rubber than thinner rubber. Thicker rubber will feel softer. When the ball stops relative to the paddle the thicker rubber will need to push out not only the ball but the mass of the rubber that was compressed. Energy is lost to the sponge in this way.
 
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i agree but i don't think you can call this a myth. the "sink ball effect" is a subjective perception of a ball that carries less speed and topspin than expected and you get a lot of those with SP rubbers.
OK, it isn't a my but it isn't something special to SP and it is just gravity making the ball sink. There can't be a magnus effect with no spin.
 
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Now you are friggin' talkin'... this is the "Gears" we talk about why such and such blade or rubber exhibits in certain situations.... and the reality totally DEFIES what we scientific minded folk want to quantify precisely.
You should read the Tieffenbacher document I posted a link to. The document address this.
 
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OK, it isn't a my but it isn't something special to SP and it is just gravity making the ball sink. There can't be a magnus effect with no spin.
So in other words the only thing affecting the ball is gravity? Fluid dynamics do not affect - in any way - a spherical object in flight, especially one as low weight and low density as a table tennis ball, unless it is spinning? The only thing affecting the movement of that ball is gravity?
Did I get that right?
 
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So in other words the only thing affecting the ball is gravity? Fluid dynamics do not affect - in any way - a spherical object in flight, especially one as low weight and low density as a table tennis ball, unless it is spinning? The only thing affecting the movement of that ball is gravity?
Did I get that right?


Good question. The answer is no of course. There is the drag force also. I didn't made the mathematics because intuitively I think that the table tennis ball doesn't create turbulences, but the maths deserve to be done.

It is quite easy to calculate the Reynolds number for the tt ball...........and I was wrong even for really slow balls ( 1m/s) the Reynolds number is far far above 1 (already around 26000) and the drag force cannot be negigated for the table tennis ball because it creates turbulences.

I didnt do the maths (lazy), but intuitively again I would say that the drag force cannot be negigated compared to gravity. Maths deserve to be done but I'm lazy to evalute the drag force for table tennis ball today/tonight........if someone is motivated to do the maths I'll be gratefull :D
 
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This conflicts with Debater/PathFinderPro's findings. Why is there a point where adding more rubber doesn't add to the speed. Show me proof.

I once bought about 6 sheets of HRS sponge of different thicknesses and stacked them up to prove this point.

With everything else being equal the ball will embedded itself more with thicker rubber than thinner rubber. Thicker rubber will feel softer. When the ball stops relative to the paddle the thicker rubber will need to push out not only the ball but the mass of the rubber that was compressed. Energy is lost to the sponge in this way.



Dude I dont have to prove anything to anyone. I tried many rubbers of the same brand and model and all thicker rubbers are faster. That's enough evidence for me.

You are making conclusions about TT physics without taking all the factors into consideration...so good luck with that :)
 
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So you saying if ever a no-spin ball was produced,it means its in free-fall?


of course not. i wasnt even talking about free fall. spin on a ball can be described by the magnus effect

I was talking on playing TT in a room with absolutely no air and make flat hits on the ball either with pips or no pips and see what happens. I guess we will never know for sure
 
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Oh and talking about faster or slower rubbers.

If a thick rubber is fully compressed then it will restore more energy to the ball than a thinner one fully compressed also. Thats hook's law , I dont care about pathfinders findings cause you are actually defying simple laws here.

The deformation of the blade is minimal and doesnt even count much, when we are talking about speed and not spin.

The same blade with a thicker rubber under the same circumstances will produce more spin and speed than na thinner rubber. More rubber deformation more energy more spin more speed.

The only difference is that the blade with the thinner rubber will deform more supposing the ball has always the same energy, but that extra deformation doesnt result in more speed
 
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and one last thing pathfinders videos experiments are not sufficient enough to prove what you are saying which is actually proved by a few counterhits and blocks. Science is used sometimes to prove what we already feel see and understand.

But in the case of TT in part two the video maker admits that it is very difficult to take all factors into consideration so...there you go


Actually they dont state that thinner rubbers are faster, you have made that conclusion by yourself. Ive watched these videos ages ago and I watched them again to fully understand your criteria.

You have totally misunderstood the concept of speed+spin , the 2mm balls landing a few cm's further than the 2.2 mm balls does not necessarily mean that these rubbers are faster. The incoming ball was a hard speed and spinny topspin not a fast counter hit. Do I really need to say more on that? Did you watch which rubber had the HIGHER rebound height?thus more sensitive to spin ?


Anyway I dont mind new theories and experiments as long as they have sufficiend background, and both pathfinder's and yours dont.

1. they didnt show us if the ball has the same impact point on both occasions

2. they put glass to act like a blade, which is completely false. glass is glass wood is wood

3. they didnt use flat speedy balls to make safe conclusions about SPEED only. they used hard topspins from the robot
 
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Pnachtwey



Both players are preferring 2.2 mm for topspin drives and 2mm for pushes/blocks (because it had more "control" meaning that the rubbers is significantly slower than the 2.2mm cause you had to add an extra motion to give the ball "pace" and place it where you want it"

Now check how these two players have a misconception about the world "control" . They say with the red (2.2) they could "control" the ball better, meaning that they didnt have to do anything themselves. That's not control that is required effort, they would be more accurate if they said "I can land the ball with the 2.2mm more easily"

The video tester @ 4:45 ends up with a "weird" conclusion because in the block testing with the robot, the red rubber had less success ratio which does not necessarily mean that it isnt a good rubber for "Easy blocking". In fact the players prefered it more cause it was easier for them, this again does not mean that the 2.2 is slower, its just EASIER TO PLAY WITH (obviously according to their personal preferences and style of play, easier to play for player A may be harder to play for player B) !

On loops with power both players preferred the 2.2 mm rubber which had more "grip" (black man quote) and "spinwise was better with the red" (white man)

On brush loop same situation 2.2 is better = > restores more energy like I said , and both players found it easier to loop. In both looping situations the white man stated that the yellow (2mm) "had nothing there". Again they find it much easier to spin the ball with the red, which means it restores more energy, thus its spinnier and faster

Now at 10:26 the videomaker states that the first two guys who are league players with some kind of technique both preferd the red rubber for speed. The next two guys preferred the yellow. Now thats misleading because the players who preferred the yellow, the first one is actually learning the game and the 2nd one which is a kid "cannot actually spin the ball"

Again on the spin test, the learner's group (kid chose yellow, while cant actually spin the ball good as the videomaker says and the bald man, didnt notice any difference -> he is actually learning the game). The first two players who have some kind of technique knowledge both preferred the red for spin

Control test : Again the black man states that it was more EASIER to play the ball with the red,misconsepting the term of "control" where the whiteman states that the yellow was much slower.

Now if you want accurate tests, just ask the pros, testing with some random guys when only 2 oout of 4 have technique of amateur to hobby level, isnt gonna give you safe results.

I would be glad to make a video on my own, but it just doesnt worth it to prove the obvious unless someone pays me for it.

Or you could ask Dan of TTD to make a video with thin and thick rubber. I have seen Dan playing and I Know that he has the understanding and proper technique of table tennis needed to reach safe conclusions on testing rubbers

Cheers
 
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i know, i've seen a baseball do it on video. however, i've never in my years of playing table tennis both against and with long pimples seen a table tennis ball wobble.

Actually I seen it before, since I was the one I'm playing against with, the player just pick whatever hardbat we could find in a churh we used to play. I believe it is due to the certain pip's diameter to height ratio, which should be banned long time ago.

So far, only that hardbat (red color as i recalled compare to all other green color) give this kind of ball, but all other regular hardbat, I haven't seen any wobble ball.
 
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So in other words the only thing affecting the ball is gravity? Fluid dynamics do not affect - in any way - a spherical object in flight, especially one as low weight and low density as a table tennis ball, unless it is spinning? The only thing affecting the movement of that ball is gravity?
Did I get that right?

Drag, pressure, friction (yes) had alots of impact on TT ball instead...

Drag and pressure is the results you can see what the TT ball can fly at a curve
Friction as you know, is the most annoying thing since we switch from celluloid to poly ball.
 
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So in other words the only thing affecting the ball is gravity?....
I didn't say that. I said that it is only gravity making the ball drop when there is no spin.
Yes fluid dynamics plays a part. I have a simulation that calculates the trajectory of TT balls given spin, speed and angle. It requires solving 5 differential equations simultaneously.
I think I said above somewhere that that ball will slow down by half ( horizontally ) for every 5 meters of travel. Vertically the terminal velocity is about 8 meters per second.
 
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Pnachtwey

......
My short answer is that people aren't calibrated instruments. There is no way you can say the same player can say he was using the same stroke for the different rubbers and all you are really getting are preferences and opinions.

This video does make my point about control being a function of the player not the rubber.

Testing with pros will not give accurate results either. Many of them believe the myths and they still aren't calibrated instruments.

Dan is very good and can make any rubber look good. He still isn't a calibrated instrument or high speed recording device. He has opinions and preferences.

If you want to test a rubber or blade it must be done without humans holding the paddle.


 
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Base balls will wobble a little because the ball has thread seams that deflect the air around the ball. TT balls don't have threaded seams like base balls do.
 
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My short answer is that people aren't calibrated instruments. There is no way you can say the same player can say he was using the same stroke for the different rubbers and all you are really getting are preferences and opinions.

This video does make my point about control being a function of the player not the rubber.

Testing with pros will not give accurate results either. Many of them believe the myths and they still aren't calibrated instruments.

Dan is very good and can make any rubber look good. He still isn't a calibrated instrument or high speed recording device. He has opinions and preferences.

If you want to test a rubber or blade it must be done without humans holding the paddle.



"Control" is often misunderstood. Saying a rubber has a good control its a matter of perspective, so you didnt invent anything new about saying "people have control not the rubbers". Well no sh** man ! Some players will prefer rubber A because they can play more accurate shots with it and others will prefer rubber B for the same reasons

As for the calibrated instruments, we actually dont need them if we want to reach conclusions about rubbers and equipment. The human hand feeling is far more reliable. The game is played by intuitive (or not) players, who have (or not) feeling for the ball and its impact, not instruments

Believe, me pros have far better understanding of the game than you and me, their lack of scientific knowledge does not mean that they dont know, which rubber and blade is "good" for table tennis and which is not.

There is a reason why the majority of pros semi pro or hobby players prefer the tenergy 05. They are not all sponsored by butterfly, and same reason for most of the players prefering stiga blades
 
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