Turning Tables - Discussion on Table characteristics

[Lord_Berry]

Hey everyone! I am a player currently playing in Italy. At my club we have about 12 Joola tables (I think they are called world cup) and have been training for about a year on these tables. Yesterday, however, I got placed during the training session in an old Butterfly table (have no idea about the exact name) and realized after one or two balls that the bounce was considerably lower and what seemed faster (?). Took some time adjusting of not making any contact, but when I did I realized I felt more comfortable with this table. Somewhat felt more natural. I've seen that in the training halls of the CNT they have tables from all the manufacturers to train on so I was wondering what has been your experiences, or if there is any pro player/coach source talking about the difference between different competition tables.

 

[loerting]

I feel the same for some tables. I play really well on really oily looking, smooth tables (e.g. old Joolas), while it is more difficult for me on new Donic tables that are more grippy. The balls don't slide through nicely and I often hit the edge on my racket.

 

[Trevize84]

When you go Butterfly, you never go back...

 

[IB66]

ITTF are supposedly looking into tables, as well as other equipment.
Manufacturers are not really restricted by loads of rules about tables, other than size and a very basic ball drop test.
The paint finish is generally up to the manufacturers, glossy or matt are all acceptable.

The reason ITTF are looking at the finishes and performance of tables, is because there is such a large difference in how the different tables play. They feel that this needs to be addressed, so that players know what they are going to get!!

loerting has already said he prefers oily smooth tables that the ball skids thru on, rather than Matt that are more ‘grippy’ (for want of a better term!!)

Don’t be surprised if a new set of rules and tests are forthcoming from the ITTF. Along with specification parameters for the finish of paint work. Between X and Y amount of glossiness.
Different bounce tests, at present it’s a basic drop test from a certain height, with rebound height between x and y mm high.
tests firing balls with x speed, y spin, at an angle of z will bounce forward between ‘a‘ high, b‘length of bounce and retain spin

 

[Trevize84]

ITTF are supposedly looking into tables, as well as other equipment.
Manufacturers are not really restricted by loads of rules about tables, other than size and a very basic ball drop test.
The paint finish is generally up to the manufacturers, glossy or matt are all acceptable.

The reason ITTF are looking at the finishes and performance of tables, is because there is such a large difference in how the different tables play. They feel that this needs to be addressed, so that players know what they are going to get!!

loerting has already said he prefers oily smooth tables that the ball skids thru on, rather than Matt that are more ‘grippy’ (for want of a better term!!)

Don’t be surprised if a new set of rules and tests are forthcoming from the ITTF. Along with specification parameters for the finish of paint work. Between X and Y amount of glossiness.
Different bounce tests, at present it’s a basic drop test from a certain height, with rebound height between x and y mm high.
tests firing balls with x speed, y spin, at an angle of z will bounce forward between ‘a‘ high, b‘length of bounce and retain spin

Any idea of when this could be happening? I'm planning to buy a table

 

[IB66]

An ITTF committee was start to look into it around 2 yrs ago, or that’s about the time I read about it. ITTF seems to be more concerned with internal power struggles!!!

 

[igorponger]

Improper materials to coat the playing surface of the table may ruin your game badly. Some plastic coatings are overly skiddy and shinny to cause a weird bounce. DHS Rainbow is shinny like a hell, without enough of surface rotational traction, Ittf goes to exclude the unduly skiddy coating materials from the sport. A Swiss research group working hard to determine on optimal numbers for surface minimum traction. So far, we have maximum limit of 0.6 and no minimum standard.. Some glaring omission in the ITTF T1 technical regulations, , indeed.

 

[JJ Ng]

Growing up, the tournaments were played on Butterfly tables, and those tables, in the 1990's, were slippery with low bounce. I had a hard time at the tournament.

I have a Butterfly Europa at home and the club uses Butterfly Centerfold. Those seem to play fine.

I have also played on Joola 2500 which is NOT ITTF approved (they made it clear on the Megaspin website but for 25mm top and only $750 or $799, I don't care it is not ITTF approved; it plays just fine). but the bounce seems to be fine. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Same brands, might not be the same characteristics
ie, Joola made in Germany tables are very different to made in China.

Table is all difference, as well as balls.
hence, why pros will try and clone the tournament environment as much as possible.
China goes and clone it totally, while some try with table + ball, and the rest, just ball.
Of course, there is those unlikely ones, that don't even clone the ball for pre tournament preparations

 

[IB66]

Same brands, might not be the same characteristics
ie, Joola made in Germany tables are very different to made in China.

Table is all difference, as well as balls.
hence, why pros will try and clone the tournament environment as much as possible.
China goes and clone it totally, while some try with table + ball, and the rest, just ball.
Of course, there is those unlikely ones, that don't even clone the ball for pre tournament preparations

Yeah, I read that some countries, especially China like to restrict the table and ball used in tournaments, but wasn't sure how much truth there was to it!!
Part of me agrees that tables should be standardised more, then another part of me says 'what about Tennis' they play on a variety of surfaces, clay, grass, tarmac etc and generally the best players still perform on whatever surface they play on, with Nadal being the master of clay!!!

It would be interesting to see what would happen if there were 3 different table finishes, real glossy slippery almost frictionless, another with 'middle ground' and the 3rd matt finish, with more grip. I still think that the best players would perform the better, but may have some tighter games on a certain type of surface.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yeah, I read that some countries, especially China like to restrict the table and ball used in tournaments, but wasn't sure how much truth there was to it!!
Part of me agrees that tables should be standardised more, then another part of me says 'what about Tennis' they play on a variety of surfaces, clay, grass, tarmac etc and generally the best players still perform on whatever surface they play on, with Nadal being the master of clay!!!

It would be interesting to see what would happen if there were 3 different table finishes, real glossy slippery almost frictionless, another with 'middle ground' and the 3rd matt finish, with more grip. I still think that the best players would perform the better, but may have some tighter games on a certain type of surface.

finishes on the table is one thing
inferior wood is another

I still remember many players who played at WTT Durban in Jan, said the ball skids way too long.
it was impossible to serve short or long
short end up medium long
long would be off the table fault - i saw quite a few long serve faults those few days.
Stag tables

 

[Lord_Berry]

Yeah, I read that some countries, especially China like to restrict the table and ball used in tournaments, but wasn't sure how much truth there was to it!!
Part of me agrees that tables should be standardised more, then another part of me says 'what about Tennis' they play on a variety of surfaces, clay, grass, tarmac etc and generally the best players still perform on whatever surface they play on, with Nadal being the master of clay!!!

It would be interesting to see what would happen if there were 3 different table finishes, real glossy slippery almost frictionless, another with 'middle ground' and the 3rd matt finish, with more grip. I still think that the best players would perform the better, but may have some tighter games on a certain type of surface.

Yeah that would surely be interesting. The only thing is that in a broadcast it is almost impossibile to tell the difference between tables. On the other hand, the difference between Wimbledon and Roland Garros is obvious. Sadly TT is such a subtle sport that it would not translate well to broadcasts.

 

[brokenball]

I agree with those that say there should be some sort of standards. Some tables provide more friction than others. The friction that occurs on the bounce can have a significant impact on the bounce. I don't like my table at all. I bought it before I knew better. My table has a lot of friction so when the ball hits the table, the ball can change directions, speed up or slow down depending on the speed and spin at impact. I think this should happen to some degree on all tables but it is the the degree of change that needs to be standardized. One of my practice partners said that my table isn't as fast as the tables at the club and this gave him problems at first. Most TT tables are made of compressed wood. Wood chips are spread over an area with glue applied and then compressed. The density of the wood is determined by how the wood chips are spread over the area to be compressed.

Particle Board vs MDF: What Is the Difference?

weekendbuilds.com

Notice there is a range of densities. The bounce will change a bit depending on the density of the table. The surface makes a huge difference too. Some tables are simply painted like mine and that sucks. My table shows the impact of all the balls that have hit it. The white balls have a slight blue coloring from the paint rubbing off the ball.

What would be good is to have some sort of test that uses sound to check if the table density is consistent.

 

[Trevize84]

I agree with those that say there should be some sort of standards. Some tables provide more friction than others. The friction that occurs on the bounce can have a significant impact on the bounce. I don't like my table at all. I bought it before I knew better. My table has a lot of friction so when the ball hits the table, the ball can change directions, speed up or slow down depending on the speed and spin at impact. I think this should happen to some degree on all tables but it is the the degree of change that needs to be standardized. One of my practice partners said that my table isn't as fast as the tables at the club and this gave him problems at first. Most TT tables are made of compressed wood. Wood chips are spread over an area with glue applied and then compressed. The density of the wood is determined by how the wood chips are spread over the area to be compressed.

Particle Board vs MDF: What Is the Difference?

weekendbuilds.com

Notice there is a range of densities. The bounce will change a bit depending on the density of the table. The surface makes a huge difference too. Some tables are simply painted like mine and that sucks. My table shows the impact of all the balls that have hit it. The white balls have a slight blue coloring from the paint rubbing off the ball.

What would be good is to have some sort of test that uses sound to check if the table density is consistent.

I guess consistency check would be difficult as it should certify the production process otherwise you would need to test every single table getting out of the factory. I would avoid that as much as possible. Same solution we have today for blades could be applied. You can have one or more ply, only some materials are allowed and thickness is regulated as well. The finish of the surface should also be same for all tables or one of the few allowed. In the latter case, each finish should have a different color so that players know what kind of characteristics the table has by just looking at its color like green, blue, black, whatever.

 

[IB66]

finishes on the table is one thing
inferior wood is another

I still remember many players who played at WTT Durban in Jan, said the ball skids way too long.
it was impossible to serve short or long
short end up medium long
long would be off the table fault - i saw quite a few long serve faults those few days.
Stag tables

materials vary, MDF, Plywood (of which there are different thicknesses and grades of ply, hardwood plies, softwood plies, combination of both, grade of timber used, glue used etc etc,)
MDF is quite popular, flat, no grain to deal with and solid, man made so quality control can be better to a certain extent.
prices of plywood have really increased (mind you everything has got more expensive!!)
Last time I checked price for a sheet of 25mm Marine ply ( good quality ply ) it was about £110+ for a 8x4ft ( 2.4 x 1.2m) sheet.
So for a table with really good quality 25mm ply as the table top, you could be looking at £200 plus just for the timber!!
thought I’d check!!
softwood ply 24mm £53
hardwood ply 25mm £76
marine ply 25mm £136
25mm moisture resistant MDF £63

 

[brokenball]

I guess consistency check would be difficult as it should certify the production process otherwise you would need to test every single table getting out of the factory. I would avoid that as much as possible.

Why?

Same solution we have today for blades could be applied. You can have one or more ply, only some materials are allowed and thickness is regulated as well.

What regulation is that?

The finish of the surface should also be same for all tables or one of the few allowed. In the latter case, each finish should have a different color so that players know what kind of characteristics the table has by just looking at its color like green, blue, black, whatever.

OK, but that requires testing each table to check how consistent the ball bounce is. I suggest a standardized table top cover and a ultrasound to check the consistency of the table..

 

[Trevize84]

Why?

I assumed producers have to test every cm² of every table they produce. That would come at a price.

What regulation is that?

I used the wrong verb, sorry for my English. I meant "should be regulated as well".

OK, but that requires testing each table to check how consistent the ball bounce is. I suggest a standardized table top cover and a ultrasound to check the consistency of the table..

If ultrasounds give enough information and are cheap enough, then I agree with you on the solution.

 

[loerting]

Another problem is that grippy tables will lose their friction over time. You cannot make a rule that says tables have to be as grippy as X. Should every club have to purchase new tables every few years?

 

[igorponger]

https://sasportssience.blob.core.windows.net/ijtts/IJTTS_8_pdf%20files/MK11_Kamijima%20K_52-55.pdf

This is quiet interesting experimental works to investigate about the ball behavior on three standard tables with different surface tractions. The CoF calculated by means of driving motor and triangular slider of 150 grammes.
CoF found to be 1. 15 -- 1.30 -- 2.10 for different tables.

The most surprising thing is that Japanese researchers opted for clumsy obsolete instrumens for making traction measurements. You can now get a high-precis digital dynamometer for 35 USD on China marketplace. It is a very rewarding investition so as to be able to disclose those trashy tables with skiddy coatings (poor traction < 1.3).
Yes, those skiddy tables is some hellish torture on advanced players. It was specifically intended for recreational play only.

 

[brokenball]

https://sasportssience.blob.core.windows.net/ijtts/IJTTS_8_pdf%20files/MK11_Kamijima%20K_52-55.pdf

This is quiet interesting experimental works to investigate about the ball behavior on three standard tables with different surface tractions. The CoF calculated by means of driving motor and triangular slider of 150 grammes.
CoF found to be 1. 15 -- 1.30 -- 2.10 for different tables.

I would use a triangular "slider" too but I would just pull the "slider" with a small spring scale so the resolution will be higher.

The 150 grams of mass applies a constant force but what is the force of a ball hitting the table? That is still unknown.

I like the metric system but what I don't like is the inconsistent way it is used. 150 grams is a mass, not a force.
Forces should be in Newtons.

If ultrasounds give enough information and are cheap enough, then I agree with you on the solution.​

An ultra sound like is used for medical purposes cost about $3000. That is small compared to guaranteeing the quality of the hundreds of tables the TT manufacturers make.
BTW, one of our customers recently started a project where pipe is being tested for defects. The pipe is rolled and an ultrasonic scanner scans the length of the pipe as the pipe is turn. I am sure the cost of the machinery and controls that are used to spin the pip and move the ultrasonic scanner cost much more than the ultrasonic scanner itself.