Using a Blade designed for table tennis - Why isn't everyone making the switch!?

[NextLevel]

Penhold grip's issue isn't the forehand though, it's the backhand.

I am not sure this addresses the point I am trying to make, and I am not entirely sold it is true either. A lot of stuff in table tennis is acquired with practice and skills are built upon a foundation of other skills. Very little about table tennis is entirely natural (did you hold the racket correctly when you started playing, and do you hold the racket now exactly how you held the racket "correctly" when you started playing?)

Penhold's major issue is the pressure it puts on the wrist and fingers to remain strong while carrying a heavy racket. I know quite a few people who have switched grip because they can't handle the joint issues they experience while trying to play better and better as penholders, and many of them had good strokes on both sides.

Many TPB blockers cause people enough issues (think Yu Fu or Xiona Shan), I agree playing offense with TPB is difficult, but backhand is just a side effect of the finger strength issue.

 

[blahness]

Well, the point is that it is NOT a huge adjustment - I transitioned within a few hours. The only issue was top edging a number of balls in the beginning.

I guess the real problem is that I literally can't even buy one to try, nobody is manufacturing say standard Viscaria like composite blades in such a shape....

But I don't see the huge advantage in off the table strokes, shakehand strokes are not so much wrist based these days, a lot is finger action + supination instead of a pure wrist action. We can already generate huge power topspins with stability from both wings which is shakehand's biggest advantage anyway.

The true advantage I think is in the short game strokes especially the aggressive ones like chiquita and FH flick.

 

[Brs]

I once played with a Tenaly bat a guy brought to the Gunston club in Arlington VA. It was alright, felt nice. But it didn't change anything significant. I still played exactly like me. It was super nice of him to let me play with it though. That's a friendly club.

 

[NextLevel]

I bought a Tenaly once because I am a fan of wrist action and like to grip my blade like a gun but the quality of the blade itself didn't impress me. Whatever it does is not enough for the handle design to be more than one thing amongst other things to consider when choosing a blade. So a lot of the points raised on this thread (getting it in the handle of a blade you really like and whether there are nuances like short game touch that need to be relearned) make sense to me. I mean, even the Wingspan blade design probably has major adherents.

 

[dingyibvs]

I am not sure this addresses the point I am trying to make, and I am not entirely sold it is true either. A lot of stuff in table tennis is acquired with practice and skills are built upon a foundation of other skills. Very little about table tennis is entirely natural (did you hold the racket correctly when you started playing, and do you hold the racket now exactly how you held the racket "correctly" when you started playing?)

Penhold's major issue is the pressure it puts on the wrist and fingers to remain strong while carrying a heavy racket. I know quite a few people who have switched grip because they can't handle the joint issues they experience while trying to play better and better as penholders, and many of them had good strokes on both sides.

Many TPB blockers cause people enough issues (think Yu Fu or Xiona Shan), I agree playing offense with TPB is difficult, but backhand is just a side effect of the finger strength issue.

I was one who switched away from RPB due to joint issues, and the BH was part of it. For RPB the grip cannot be as flexible as for TPB, which leads to constant tension on your index and middle fingers, causing a lot of joint pain. For TPB you'd curl up your fingers when playing the BH, which relieves the joint pain.

My theory on how WH was able to play RPB at such a high level is that he was somehow able to play RPB with fairly curled up fingers, unlike say Xu Xin. I can't maintain a good grip on the racket when I do that, so I don't know how WH manages it.

 

[NextLevel]

I was one who switched away from RPB due to joint issues, and the BH was part of it. For RPB the grip cannot be as flexible as for TPB, which leads to constant tension on your index and middle fingers, causing a lot of joint pain. For TPB you'd curl up your fingers when playing the BH, which relieves the joint pain.

My theory on how WH was able to play RPB at such a high level is that he was somehow able to play RPB with fairly curled up fingers, unlike say Xu Xin. I can't maintain a good grip on the racket when I do that, so I don't know how WH manages it.

I think starting young makes a huge difference to many things, you get used to things that make no sense to people who didn't grow into them. Also, China has struggled mightily to replicate Wang Hao which may speak for itself. But if I tried to play penhold or teach a kid, I would try to get them to use knuckles where fingers are currently used and see whether their knuckles could replace the feeling required from the fingers.

 

[zeio]

Cue hardheaded engineer...

 

[zeio]

I was one who switched away from RPB due to joint issues, and the BH was part of it. For RPB the grip cannot be as flexible as for TPB, which leads to constant tension on your index and middle fingers, causing a lot of joint pain. For TPB you'd curl up your fingers when playing the BH, which relieves the joint pain.

My theory on how WH was able to play RPB at such a high level is that he was somehow able to play RPB with fairly curled up fingers, unlike say Xu Xin. I can't maintain a good grip on the racket when I do that, so I don't know how WH manages it.

The biggest reason is that WH didn't start with TPB. LGL, MLin and XX all started with TPB. MLin even started out with longpips.

https://www.zhihu.com/question/55858598
It's said the coaches tried to add TPB for 2 years between 2001-2004.

https://www.tkww.hk/epaper/view/newsDetail/1353945701150756864.html
WCT and XF also started out with RPB only.

 

[z0uLess]

HAHA - THAT'S A LOT OF WOOD - not sure about doing pushes with that one.

the design could be improved, if rather costly, by having it custom fitted to your hand

 

[Sland]

I usually just lurk on here but since it seems that not many people have real-time exposure to the tenaly, so I'll add my experience with it.

On the spectrum of EJ's I would considered myself high. I've spent well over 15k usd in the last couple of years on table tennis equipment (when I started playing more seriously). I say this not to "embarrass" myself, but mainly for perspective. I've owned 3 different Tenaly's (Carbon, Acoustic Carbon, and Acoustic).

I was excited about the idea of the Tenaly and really tried to make it work (hence, why I bought 3 different ones) but in the end I couldn't really make it "click". I would say that it actually feels great on the FH side- so if you are FH dominate, then I could be a really nice blade to try. For me, it's biggest pitfall was in the BH. While the angle of the bat for the BH is nice for doing something like blocking, the way that the angle is set actually makes it more difficult to loop and generate the kind of spin that you can with a traditional blade handle when using you wrist properly to follow through on the stroke. My BH is my strength, so this was a deal breaker for me. This also becomes more apparent in real-time matches and not just hitting back and forth with a partner.

I will say again that I think that the Tenaly is a nice, fun blade for people who have interest in trying something new... but with how Important the BH his in the modern game, I would be very surprised to see anyone over 2300 USATT rating play with it seriously.

 

[blahness]

I was one who switched away from RPB due to joint issues, and the BH was part of it. For RPB the grip cannot be as flexible as for TPB, which leads to constant tension on your index and middle fingers, causing a lot of joint pain. For TPB you'd curl up your fingers when playing the BH, which relieves the joint pain.

My theory on how WH was able to play RPB at such a high level is that he was somehow able to play RPB with fairly curled up fingers, unlike say Xu Xin. I can't maintain a good grip on the racket when I do that, so I don't know how WH manages it.

I actually did try 2 wing penhold and I didn't feel the same way, the RPB felt really natural and easy for me...chiquita was so much easier with RPB. The transition was even easier than on my FH where the angles were all wrong lol.

 

[dingyibvs]

I actually did try 2 wing penhold and I didn't feel the same way, the RPB felt really natural and easy for me...chiquita was so much easier with RPB. The transition was even easier than on my FH where the angles were all wrong lol.

A more natural BH angle, particularly with the BH flick, was why I switched to RPB in the first place. But alas, the joint pains were just too much to handle.

 

[blahness]

A more natural BH angle, particularly with the BH flick, was why I switched to RPB in the first place. But alas, the joint pains were just too much to handle.

I did it with curled fingers too, which is maybe why I felt a bit more comfortable. There is quite some pressure on the 2nd joint of the middle finger tho so I can see how the pain can start if I tried it long term.

The penhold FH is really something else, I felt like the angle was always more open than what I thought on shakehand and it was really hard to try and close it down. But the real eye opener is the FH flick- it was so easy on penhold compared to shakehand haha.

 

[dingyibvs]

I did it with curled fingers too, which is maybe why I felt a bit more comfortable. There is quite some pressure on the 2nd joint of the middle finger tho so I can see how the pain can start if I tried it long term.

The penhold FH is really something else, I felt like the angle was always more open than what I thought on shakehand and it was really hard to try and close it down. But the real eye opener is the FH flick- it was so easy on penhold compared to shakehand haha.

The hold on the racket didn't feel solid enough with curled fingers, and yea the middle finger pain doesn't really get better unless you start young and your finger deforms to suit the grip.

 

[SlowPower]

Maybe make a hole into the rubber where the finger is to lower the pressure?

 

[Danttgeek]

I guess the real problem is that I literally can't even buy one to try, nobody is manufacturing say standard Viscaria like composite blades in such a shape....

But I don't see the huge advantage in off the table strokes, shakehand strokes are not so much wrist based these days, a lot is finger action + supination instead of a pure wrist action. We can already generate huge power topspins with stability from both wings which is shakehand's biggest advantage anyway.

The true advantage I think is in the short game strokes especially the aggressive ones like chiquita and FH flick.

The more I play with, the more I feel that the pushes could be a big advantage. But I can't be sure - it could just be that my pushes are developing more over time. I didn't see a big difference when I first made the switch.

And yes, it's frustrating that nobody else makes these blades. The Acoustic inner carbon is a great blade - it surely suits most advanced loopers and the acoustic no doubt is great too (I'm about to find out), but there are so many different blades out there. Frankly one of my favourites is the Samsonov BlackForce edition - awesome 7 ply blade and cheap to boost - would buy it immediately if I could get it in the Tenaly style.

 

[Danttgeek]

I bought a Tenaly once because I am a fan of wrist action and like to grip my blade like a gun but the quality of the blade itself didn't impress me. Whatever it does is not enough for the handle design to be more than one thing amongst other things to consider when choosing a blade. So a lot of the points raised on this thread (getting it in the handle of a blade you really like and whether there are nuances like short game touch that need to be relearned) make sense to me. I mean, even the Wingspan blade design probably has major adherents.

There are 4 different blades - the two cheap ones don't look impressive.

 

[Danttgeek]

I usually just lurk on here but since it seems that not many people have real-time exposure to the tenaly, so I'll add my experience with it.

On the spectrum of EJ's I would considered myself high. I've spent well over 15k usd in the last couple of years on table tennis equipment (when I started playing more seriously). I say this not to "embarrass" myself, but mainly for perspective. I've owned 3 different Tenaly's (Carbon, Acoustic Carbon, and Acoustic).

I was excited about the idea of the Tenaly and really tried to make it work (hence, why I bought 3 different ones) but in the end I couldn't really make it "click". I would say that it actually feels great on the FH side- so if you are FH dominate, then I could be a really nice blade to try. For me, it's biggest pitfall was in the BH. While the angle of the bat for the BH is nice for doing something like blocking, the way that the angle is set actually makes it more difficult to loop and generate the kind of spin that you can with a traditional blade handle when using you wrist properly to follow through on the stroke. My BH is my strength, so this was a deal breaker for me. This also becomes more apparent in real-time matches and not just hitting back and forth with a partner.

I will say again that I think that the Tenaly is a nice, fun blade for people who have interest in trying something new... but with how Important the BH his in the modern game, I would be very surprised to see anyone over 2300 USATT rating play with it seriously.

HMmm - that is such an interesting comment.

I say that because I am a backhand dominant player and my experience isn't like yours at all.

It's my view that the technique on backhand loops actually vary a lot more (for good technique) then it does for forehand - I wonder if that has something to do with it. Some people drive the ball more (Harimoto), some rotate fully around the elbow, some people hit in middle and some near the left hip (like Patrick Franziska) things change - not that you are I likely play anything like these guys - hehe, but just saying. The other issue is where you hit it, how close to your body, at what angle of the forearm.

But frankly, I can't see how any of these things could represent a disadvantage. I would be very interested to see a photo of where (how) you contact the ball with tenaly/normal racket on your backhand. (obviously I mean simulated by holding the ball in your other hand)

Not to critisize in any way (there is more then one right, we do what works for us), just to understand because I recognise that my technique is far from perfect and I may be missing something here. I am always most curious when someone's opinion is the polar opposite - that's when I learn the most.

 

[Sland]

HMmm - that is such an interesting comment.

I say that because I am a backhand dominant player and my experience isn't like yours at all.

It's my view that the technique on backhand loops actually vary a lot more (for good technique) then it does for forehand - I wonder if that has something to do with it. Some people drive the ball more (Harimoto), some rotate fully around the elbow, some people hit in middle and some near the left hip (like Patrick Franziska) things change - not that you are I likely play anything like these guys - hehe, but just saying. The other issue is where you hit it, how close to your body, at what angle of the forearm.

But frankly, I can't see how any of these things could represent a disadvantage. I would be very interested to see a photo of where (how) you contact the ball with tenaly/normal racket on your backhand. (obviously I mean simulated by holding the ball in your other hand)

Not to critisize in any way (there is more then one right, we do what works for us), just to understand because I recognise that my technique is far from perfect and I may be missing something here. I am always most curious when someone's opinion is the polar opposite - that's when I learn the most.

I completely understand where you are coming from with how different pro players make contact so instead of further trying to describe in text my experience with the backhand, I just cut a couple of videos of me looping underspin in practice and also just some backhands I had in match at the US Open this year. I am not claiming good technique, but I can generate enough power to finish points against decent players.

When I used the Tenaly, it was very difficult for me to generate the same amount of power when utilizing the wrist to follow through.

If you have video of yourself using the Tenaly effectively, that would be really nice to observe since the EJ in me has been itching for an excuse to bust it out again!

 

[blahness]

The more I play with, the more I feel that the pushes could be a big advantage. But I can't be sure - it could just be that my pushes are developing more over time. I didn't see a big difference when I first made the switch.

And yes, it's frustrating that nobody else makes these blades. The Acoustic inner carbon is a great blade - it surely suits most advanced loopers and the acoustic no doubt is great too (I'm about to find out), but there are so many different blades out there. Frankly one of my favourites is the Samsonov BlackForce edition - awesome 7 ply blade and cheap to boost - would buy it immediately if I could get it in the Tenaly style.

Yes exactly - the availability issue has to get fixed first and some manufacturer needs to take a risk and spearlaunch it (similar to what Stiga did with the Cybershape).