Want to know why Yinhe Pro 05 is so head heavy?

[Egon]

I'll add: A dog chewed the pen here

 

[Egon]

And one more thing

 

[Egon]

On butterfly blades I have seen a slit in the blade only on the Kong Ling Hu blade (unfortunately, there is only a photo of the blade itself after repair). I have not seen this on the two Korbels, Freitas and Viscaria, that I have had to repair. Both the handles and the blade were solid.

nd the blade were solid.

 

[Julzig]

And one more thingView attachment 37096

Opened my V-14s handle aswell a few days ago (did not go well), also 91-92g and it had, other than yours shown, 2 smaller cavitys each.

 

[Tyce]

Opened my V-14s handle aswell a few days ago (did not go well), also 91-92g and it had, other than yours shown, 2 smaller cavitys each.

Must have been a slightly lighter ply construction then? I can imagine they just weigh the routed blanks and pair them with the corresponding handle gap and/or slit to create the desired weight.

 

[mightymouse]

I have thought about another reason they might be doing that:

1. To lower the weight (has been discussed above). This can be the main reason.

2. To align the center of mass (of the whole blade) to the area where we hit the ball?

I think we all hit the ball, right around the center of the blade to the upper part of the blade. I don't really think we deliberately hit the ball closer to the handle. So I think, the reason they create hollow handle is to shift the center of mass further up (accounting for the weight of both rubbers as well) so that it is around the area where we hit the ball.
Or they can just make something like CWT technology then, like Stiga, so we can adjust whether we want our blade to be head heavy or handle heavy. I discovered that this has been created by a Chinese brand long time ago, where there is a screw inside the handle and we have the key to move the weight toward the tip of the handle or down the handle.

 

[SDC]

I have thought about another reason they might be doing that:

1. To lower the weight (has been discussed above). This can be the main reason.

2. To align the center of mass (of the whole blade) to the area where we hit the ball?

I think we all hit the ball, right around the center of the blade to the upper part of the blade. I don't really think we deliberately hit the ball closer to the handle. So I think, the reason they create hollow handle is to shift the center of mass further up (accounting for the weight of both rubbers as well) so that it is around the area where we hit the ball.
Or they can just make something like CWT technology then, like Stiga, so we can adjust whether we want our blade to be head heavy or handle heavy. I discovered that this has been created by a Chinese brand long time ago, where there is a screw inside the handle and we have the key to move the weight toward the tip of the handle or down the handle.

You are really overthinking things, it's just about weight.

Some compositions are heavy and there's no getting way from it, mostly when we use Ayous cores. Sure, some may come out lighter because Ayous can be found with a wide density range, but even for the average density it normally results in heavy compositions. Some of these blades posted here would easily be 100g if not hollowed, and almost no one wants 100g blades nowadays (apart from choppers).

The Extreme doesn't have an Ayous core, but it's Limba/Limba/Aramid-Carbon/kiri, and people really underestimate the weight of limba too. They have a fancy name for it, but the "spread tow carbon" is just an equivalent to my S-AxC, and it's a high density fabric as well.

Most blades with a kiri core are not hollowed, most Butterfly outer blades aren't (some are), but their inner blades with Ayous core are hollowed too.

 

[Egon]

My experience in this matter corresponds to Sergio's experience. People who ask me to make a blade for them mostly focus on a weight of up to 90 grams. Although in my opinion as a manufacturer and table tennis player, balance has a greater effect on the characteristics of the racket as a whole.

 

[kapahoo]

But the wrb-, sensoblades and such were a way to move the center of mass right? And there is sort of a trend right now to have bigger head blades and that is also about getting them more head heavy, right? So it cant be all about total mass of the blade.

 

[Tyce]

Honestly, my Pro 01 all set up weighs about 10 grams more than my Korbel setup, but I can't tell which one is heavier in my hand.

I just filled things up with a nut and two small blocks of wood. It's in the clamps now waiting for the wood glue to dry. A rough check tells me the balance has moved about 4-5mm or so, might be less once the glue has dried.
Adding more weight could have put the balance down more, but I didn't want to overdo it on the total weight. I just want to take the clunky feeling off and maybe reduce the rattle on hard hits.

The nut is superglued, te blocks are wedged in at the bottom and wood-glued at the top.

 

[SDC]

Honestly, my Pro 01 all set up weighs about 10 grams more than my Korbel setup, but I can't tell which one is heavier in my hand.

I just filled things up with a nut and two small blocks of wood. It's in the clamps now waiting for the wood glue to dry. A rough check tells me the balance has moved about 4-5mm or so, might be less once the glue has dried.
Adding more weight could have put the balance down more, but I didn't want to overdo it on the total weight. I just want to take the clunky feeling off and maybe reduce the rattle on hard hits.

The nut is superglued, te blocks are wedged in at the bottom and wood-glued at the top.

View attachment 37108

If the nut was placed on the bottom portion of the handle, it would provide a more effective contribution to the balance.

 

[SDC]

But the wrb-, sensoblades and such were a way to move the center of mass right? And there is sort of a trend right now to have bigger head blades and that is also about getting them more head heavy, right? So it cant be all about total mass of the blade.

They are different things, the wrb and senso "technologies" were always marketed focusing on the vibration and feel of the blade. Never have I seen (and correct me if I'm wrong) a manufacturer marketing such a process like this: here, take this handle hollowing, it makes the blade more head heavy. I give the benefit of the doubt when they openly show that they are hollowing the handle, but nowadays they still don't and don't even advertise it. So, the real motive must be hidden, right? Furthermore, those "technologies" came out when rubbers were a bit lighter, and light rubbers on a head heavy blade is still acceptable for most players. Nowadays the reality is different, rubbers are heavier, and most players don't want to handle that kind of setup. I would say that probably 70% of my customers are looking for a low balance, even with blades that naturally tend to be more head heavy, which makes my job really hard sometimes...

Again, head heaviness has its place, and in theoretical terms it's the one that most optimizes performance. More mass further away from the CG = more momentum = more power. There is a reason why blades like the HL5 became so popular among FH oriented players, it's not only because of the composition, but because they are head heavy, it's all part of the equation. However, they are also harder to manage, it's harder to achieve full acceleration so they are physically more demanding, slower fh-bh transitions and puts more strain on the wrist on fast Bh strokes. That's also one of the reasons why blades like the Viscaria became popular among Bh oriented players, it has a low balance which enables fast transitions and wrist action. On the other hand, the lack of momentum generates a lower quality ball on the Fh.

The larger head trend comes from two things. Firstly, most people confuse hitting area with sweetspot, this is one of the most common mistakes I see, but it's a totally different discussion so I don't want to go there now. The second is that the pro version of some blades have a bigger head size. The reason is that some pros actually want and benefit from a head heavy blade (due to the reasons I already stated) because they can handle them. They train for hours and generally have the physical requirements to handle it, so it's a small advantage in their game. It's not hard to implement a slightly larger head size, for example going from 157x150 to 158x152, it's only 1mm more all around, it has very little impact on weight, maybe 1-2g, which is easily compensated by hollowing the handle a bit more. Still, you never see any comment by them regarding the balance, they only state the total weight.

 

[mamedium]

just curious, how does this Pro 05 play? is it something like a Malong blade?

 

[boretennis]

Firstly, most people confuse hitting area with sweetspot, this is one of the most common mistakes I see, but it's a totally different discussion so I don't want to go there now.

if & when you feel like it i would be curious to hear more about this. i have an idea of why those two things are not necessarily/actually the same, but i would think the idea behind trying to enlarge the sweetspot is to create a larger (safe) hitting area?

 

[Tyce]

If the nut was placed on the bottom portion of the handle, it would provide a more effective contribution to the balance.

It did make a difference, but only about 1mm so I decided to go for this as a more practical option. The two deeper cavities hold the blocks, the middle upper ridge can hold the (thinner) nut.

just curious, how does this Pro 05 play? is it something like a Malong blade?

I have not played a HL5 family blade, and only one inner blade which turned out to be broken. But composition wise this thing is somewhere between a HL5 and a HL5X without the larger head size.

It plays pretty much as I expected it to, on slow shots you can feel there's something solid backing you up but it doesn't kick in. Feels like a typical Limba blade at that point, not unlike a Clipper but with more uniform, stable feeling.
It's really stable on fast drives and loops, feels like you have enough time to direct the ball and it keeps that uniform feeling like you always hit it in the right spot (even when you don't).

 

[SDC]

if & when you feel like it i would be curious to hear more about this. i have an idea of why those two things are not necessarily/actually the same, but i would think the idea behind trying to enlarge the sweetspot is to create a larger (safe) hitting area?

I'm not sure when, but I intend to create a separate thread about this topic.

 

[kapahoo]

They are different things, the wrb and senso "technologies" were always marketed focusing on the vibration and feel of the blade. Never have I seen (and correct me if I'm wrong) a manufacturer marketing such a process like this: here, take this handle hollowing, it makes the blade more head heavy. I give the benefit of the doubt when they openly show that they are hollowing the handle, but nowadays they still don't and don't even advertise it. So, the real motive must be hidden, right? Furthermore, those "technologies" came out when rubbers were a bit lighter, and light rubbers on a head heavy blade is still acceptable for most players. Nowadays the reality is different, rubbers are heavier, and most players don't want to handle that kind of setup. I would say that probably 70% of my customers are looking for a low balance, even with blades that naturally tend to be more head heavy, which makes my job really hard sometimes...

Again, head heaviness has its place, and in theoretical terms it's the one that most optimizes performance. More mass further away from the CG = more momentum = more power. There is a reason why blades like the HL5 became so popular among FH oriented players, it's not only because of the composition, but because they are head heavy, it's all part of the equation. However, they are also harder to manage, it's harder to achieve full acceleration so they are physically more demanding, slower fh-bh transitions and puts more strain on the wrist on fast Bh strokes. That's also one of the reasons why blades like the Viscaria became popular among Bh oriented players, it has a low balance which enables fast transitions and wrist action. On the other hand, the lack of momentum generates a lower quality ball on the Fh.

The larger head trend comes from two things. Firstly, most people confuse hitting area with sweetspot, this is one of the most common mistakes I see, but it's a totally different discussion so I don't want to go there now. The second is that the pro version of some blades have a bigger head size. The reason is that some pros actually want and benefit from a head heavy blade (due to the reasons I already stated) because they can handle them. They train for hours and generally have the physical requirements to handle it, so it's a small advantage in their game. It's not hard to implement a slightly larger head size, for example going from 157x150 to 158x152, it's only 1mm more all around, it has very little impact on weight, maybe 1-2g, which is easily compensated by hollowing the handle a bit more. Still, you never see any comment by them regarding the balance, they only state the total weight.

Thanks for this great answer! I'm sure you are right about everything. I (and I guess others) have also been thinking about the modern, heavy rubbers and why manufacturers do not make blades to compensate for this. Smaller heads and/or heavier, longer handles should have a customer base.

 

[mightymouse]

......... Smaller heads and/or heavier, longer handles should have a customer base.

Back in the late 90 / early 2000, I actually liked smaller to medium size blade with longer handle. Tibhar used to make a few of them. One blade in particular that I like is Tibhar Samsonov Alpha (the grey handle, the old version). It is just very comfortable to use, but not as powerful as BTY Korbel or Avalox P500 / BT 555 (in similar allwood blade category). Although I like the longer handle, but I wish that the head size of old Samsonov Alpha can be a bit larger.

 

[Tyce]

I just released the clamps and measured the final results. From 3.5cm it's gone down to 2.7cm, which is right around where I'd like.
I'm gluing rubber now, very curious about the feeling behind the table.
That's going to have to wait until Monday though.

 

[Egon]

Back in the late 90 / early 2000, I actually liked smaller to medium size blade with longer handle. Tibhar used to make a few of them. One blade in particular that I like is Tibhar Samsonov Alpha (the grey handle, the old version). It is just very comfortable to use, but not as powerful as BTY Korbel or Avalox P500 / BT 555 (in similar allwood blade category). Although I like the longer handle, but I wish that the head size of old Samsonov Alpha can be a bit larger.

As far as I remember, in addition to the size of the handle, this blade has a very comfortable handle shape.