What additional titles will put FZD as equally decorated as ML (besides another Olympics gold ofc)?

[NDH]

This thread seems to ask one thing, but the assumption has been taken a different way.

If you are talking "statistics", then these are cold hard facts which you can't deny.

Simply compare statistics with Ma Long and you'll see what needs to be done.

But if you are talking about people's (fans) perception, I just don't think he'll compare.

There are sportspeople like Ma Long and Federer (to keep it tennis related), who seem to capture the fan base more than others, and have a magical aura to them.

Statistically, Djokovic is the greatest ever - There really aren't many arguments you can make (statistically) to dispute this.

But I'd bet a lot of money that if you asked the tennis world, more people would say Nadal or Federer is the greatest.

FZD could win everything for the next 5 years, and I still don't think he'll be remembered as kindly as Ma Long.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

This thread seems to ask one thing, but the assumption has been taken a different way.

If you are talking "statistics", then these are cold hard facts which you can't deny.

Simply compare statistics with Ma Long and you'll see what needs to be done.

But if you are talking about people's (fans) perception, I just don't think he'll compare.

There are sportspeople like Ma Long and Federer (to keep it tennis related), who seem to capture the fan base more than others, and have a magical aura to them.

Statistically, Djokovic is the greatest ever - There really aren't many arguments you can make (statistically) to dispute this.

But I'd bet a lot of money that if you asked the tennis world, more people would say Nadal or Federer is the greatest.

FZD could win everything for the next 5 years, and I still don't think he'll be remembered as kindly as Ma Long.

I will always remember FZD for two things:
1. The hotel room incidence.
2. The Taylor-gate incidence.

Just kidding.... Seriously I will always remember with awe when FZD enters into "THE BEAST MODE". He is on a whole different level when he activates his BEAST MODE.

 

[NextLevel]

This thread seems to ask one thing, but the assumption has been taken a different way.

If you are talking "statistics", then these are cold hard facts which you can't deny.

Simply compare statistics with Ma Long and you'll see what needs to be done.

But if you are talking about people's (fans) perception, I just don't think he'll compare.

There are sportspeople like Ma Long and Federer (to keep it tennis related), who seem to capture the fan base more than others, and have a magical aura to them.

Statistically, Djokovic is the greatest ever - There really aren't many arguments you can make (statistically) to dispute this.

But I'd bet a lot of money that if you asked the tennis world, more people would say Nadal or Federer is the greatest.

FZD could win everything for the next 5 years, and I still don't think he'll be remembered as kindly as Ma Long.

I think if you asked the tennis world, you would hear that Djokovic is the greatest. It is outside the tennis world that people would make an argument for someone else. The tennis world sufficiently knows that Djokovic is unparalleled. I get what you are saying about popularity, but the statistics are overwhelming both in Ma Long's and Djokovic's case. Ma Long won through statistics, he dominated the tour for many years even when he wasn't the world champion.

 

[NDH]

I think if you asked the tennis world, you would hear that Djokovic is the greatest. It is outside the tennis world that people would make an argument for someone else. The tennis world sufficiently knows that Djokovic is unparalleled. I get what you are saying about popularity, but the statistics are overwhelming both in Ma Long's and Djokovic's case. Ma Long won through statistics, he dominated the tour for many years even when he wasn't the world champion.

So, for people “in the know” on tennis, I reckon you’d hear….

“Statistically, it’s Djokovic, but for me, it’s XXX”

And this is why the GOAT sort of question always comes down to more than statistics.

Federer will be my GOAT forever. What he made me feel watching tennis is unmatched.

I also think off the court (and on court) manner also plays a big part.

 

[NextLevel]

So, for people “in the know” on tennis, I reckon you’d hear….

“Statistically, it’s Djokovic, but for me, it’s XXX”

And this is why the GOAT sort of question always comes down to more than statistics.

Federer will be my GOAT forever. What he made me feel watching tennis is unmatched.

I also think off the court (and on court) manner also plays a big part.

That's not my experience at all - but I do know people like you who grew up when Fed was winning a lot and are enamored with him. But that is no different from someone who grew up during the time of Jordan being more enamored with him than Lebron or someone who grew up during the time of Lebron being more enamored with him than Kareem or Magic Johnson.

Just about every enthusiast I have asked says the greatest player of all time is Djokovic - they don't confuse their sentimental best with the greatest. I mean I have a late uncle who loved McEnroe and still thought Djokovic was the GOAT. But Federer fans are often confusing their love for Federer and how he is perceived for his dominance and personality when Roddick was the second best player in TT with the GOAT discussion.

 

[NDH]

That's not my experience at all - but I do know people like you who grew up when Fed was winning a lot and are enamored with him. But that is no different from someone who grew up during the time of Jordan being more enamored with him than Lebron or someone who grew up during the time of Lebron being more enamored with him than Kareem or Magic Johnson.

Just about every enthusiast I have asked says the greatest player of all time is Djokovic - they don't confuse their sentimental best with the greatest. I mean I have a late uncle who loved McEnroe and still thought Djokovic was the GOAT. But Federer fans are often confusing their love for Federer and how he is perceived for his dominance and personality when Roddick was the second best player in TT with the GOAT discussion.

We clearly have very different experiences!

Yeah, you’ll always get the generational argument (Borg, Ashe, Mac etc).

No one can dispute the stats, and no one tries. Based on cold hard stats, no one argues it’s Djokovic.

But “greatest” in my experience from speaking to people, is much more than stats.

Very few people I’ve spoken to put Djokovic as the greatest, and that can only be down to perception of the man.

Fed and Nadal are the common 2, Djokovic 3rd and then you get into the older generations.

 

[NextLevel]

We clearly have very different experiences!

Yeah, you’ll always get the generational argument (Borg, Ashe, Mac etc).

No one can dispute the stats, and no one tries. Based on cold hard stats, no one argues it’s Djokovic.

But “greatest” in my experience from speaking to people, is much more than stats.

Very few people I’ve spoken to put Djokovic as the greatest, and that can only be down to perception of the man.

Fed and Nadal are the common 2, Djokovic 3rd and then you get into the older generations.

One can speak of impact on the game for sure and I doubt anyone can argue that Federer didn't have the biggest impact on the game in the 2000s (again, the second best player for much of his dominance was Andy Roddick), and then later when Nadal came on the scene, Nadal captured the public imagination in part by being someone who could actually beat Federer, especially on clay and definitely on all surfaces.

But nostalgia and impact on the sport are not quite the same things as being the greatest player. If anyone thinks that tennis experts thought Federer was so perfect that his game was just better than everyone else's, here is a notable table tennis journalist repoducing in 2011 an article he first wrote in 2007 when Djokovic was 19/20 and hadn't even won a title:

The Perfect Player, Revisited | Tennis.com

www.tennis.com

 

[NextLevel]

OKay - I have derailed the thread .

I am proud of FZD. At least, he is a complete player - I think for me, if he wins two more WTTC in singles, that would be enough for me. And maybe another OG. But two more WTTC in singles would do it for me. I don't think anyone can equal ML's tour dominance, but I wouldn't hold losing to ML as an asterisk for FZD, as ML never beat WH in a WTTC either. That will be a stain for both of them.

 

[zeio]

CCTV ratings for Paris 2024 released. 11 out of the top 20 were table tennis events. FZD vs Harimoto was the most watched match in terms of rating share.

巴黎奧運｜央視收視率前20出爐：乒乓球佔11席　全紅嬋奪金排第一
https://www.hk01.com/article/1047938

 

[nonsleeper]

That's just his personality, more Nadal than Djokovic.

You don't say

 

[nonsleeper]

OKay - I have derailed the thread .

I am proud of FZD. At least, he is a complete player - I think for me, if he wins two more WTTC in singles, that would be enough for me. And maybe another OG. But two more WTTC in singles would do it for me. I don't think anyone can equal ML's tour dominance, but I wouldn't hold losing to ML as an asterisk for FZD, as ML never beat WH in a WTTC either. That will be a stain for both of them.

I think no asterisks need to be made for either of them. It's a lifetime of relentless dedication and along the way a lot of factors can come to play. It doesn't matter much the fact FZD won 2021 Championship in ML's absence and the true reason behind it, or the potential coincidence that ML era only really started after WH's retirement, etc. All their achievements are fair and square considering everything imo, and whoever ends up with more titles collected would deserve the full respect in that regard.

 

[zeio]

Semi-related.

王楚钦对男单32强的反思来了 (WCQ reflecting on MS R32)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9140293182

R32 (WCQ's latest nickname): DOMS from playing 3 events, XD and then chopper...

https://olympics.com/en/paris-2024/schedule/table-tennis?day=27-july&noc=CHN
8/
27 XD R16
28 MS R64, XD QF
29 XD SF
30 XD F
31 MS R32

 

[NextLevel]

I think no asterisks need to be made for either of them. It's a lifetime of relentless dedication and along the way a lot of factors can come to play. It doesn't matter much the fact FZD won 2021 Championship in ML's absence and the true reason behind it, or the potential coincidence that ML era only really started after WH's retirement, etc. All their achievements are fair and square considering everything imo, and whoever ends up with more titles collected would deserve the full respect in that regard.

That's definitely a reasonable interpretation. I consider the alternative reasonable as well. While it isn't everything, there is a case to be made that overturning/beating the old guard is truly revolutionary, especially when you have lost to the previously - it is a kind of wall-breaking action. Waiting for your time isn't quite the same. I wouldn't assign it absolute value (so I agree with you in that sense) but I would assign it some (so I can see and agree with the alternate view).