What do you think the no.1 Korean amateur player's rating would be?

[Jaydynite]

Yun Hong Kyun (the guy in yellow in the vid) is titled "the best amateur player in Korea."

While Korean amateur players seem to view him as a role model, I've seen a lot of English comments on his other videos criticising him.

What do you think this guy's USATT rating would be?
In Korea, he's a class 1 player (1부), the highest achievable rating for amateurs.

 

[NextLevel]

Yun Hong Kyun (the guy in yellow in the vid) is titled "the best amateur player in Korea."

While Korean amateur players seem to view him as a role model, I've seen a lot of English comments on his other videos criticising him.

What do you think this guy's USATT rating would be?
In Korea, he's a class 1 player (1부), the highest achievable rating for amateurs.

Such players are usually 2350-2550.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

One shot one kill. No rally exchange. No loppity-loppity loop. Really ol'skool! The style that I like very much and gravitate towards.

Big massive FH FTW ❤️❤️❤️

 

[blahness]

One shot one kill. No rally exchange. No loppity-loppity loop. Really ol'skool! The style that I like very much and gravitate towards.

Big massive FH FTW ❤️❤️❤️

Actually their FH loops are absolutely loaded with spin. Yellow guy is really good but really he is bullying the penholder's BH. If he faced off against someone with a legit modern BH it might be a different story. It's actually quite interesting how he is exploiting the weakness of TPB. I'm taking notes from him lol 🤣

 

[OldUser]

Separating pros and amateurs by a rating system is stupid, what's the criteria behind that ? If you're strong enough to be a pro, why a rating system that bad should stop ya ?

In my country there's no limitations: if you're strong like Lim Jonghoon, then you play in a pro league and make a living that way. I've been a pro musician, before that I was an amateur, and now I'm back to be an amateur musician, simply because I do not pay my bills anymore with music. Not because a "musician rating" shows I'm an amateur or a pro.

Did he try to make it a living before pushing your argument of the "best amateur player" ? if not, then he was not good enough to be a pro. He's at the right place to me. And the USATT rating being elo based, it's not showing the real gap between strong amateurs and pros. 2450 on average means 1950 here in France, it's regionale 1/ Nationale 3, tier 6 to 5 league. Lim Jonghoon in the number 1 with a 3550 FFTT rating, not a USATT 2800 or 2900 no one understands. The pro leagues are the tier 1 and 2, and that's all. For example, Damien Provost wil play in Regionale 1 in france next years, the 2021 french nationals bronze medal is not considered a pro anymore here. To his own terms, he's a pro because he makes a living playing in many different countries for pro teams, even for New York for just some matches and next season in MLTT. What do you think pro musicians do ? exactly the same, you have to work hard to be a pro, if you're only the best jam sessions blues guitarist out there and don't try to network and train hard, then you're at the place you deserve to be at.

Damien Provost has found the right way of being a pro when you're considered a top level amateur: work your arse off, don't be scared to travel and sell your skills.You have to consider the table tennis player as a business, your own company that you're both the CEO, the R&D department, the marketing department, the crafter in the factory and the final product.

"For several months, Damien Provost has been at the pace of a minister. The jet is not there, but the phone is in hand at the airports. This week, he will play in Saint-Quentin, three times in Belgium, twice in Spain to finish in England! If we add to this his start to the season in Greece, his freelance in New York and his signing for a Polish club next year, he has become a real globetrotter. “This is the first year that I have made a decent living. I feel like a Pro player for the first time. I am also having the best season of my life. There is no one who has won as many matches as me in Spain, ”confides the interested party with impressive stats (15 wins / 3 losses in Greece, 8V / 0D in Belgium and 22V / 4D in Spain)."

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/tennis-de-table/tennis-de-table-le-retour-aux-sources-du-nantais-damien-provost-d8b27ad0-b6a6-11ed-8162-65d84108a21b

That's why when I read people like Ibrahima Diaw, Lilly Zhang and any other pro athlete complaining I always get back to the Provost example: do you really try to sell your skills ? do you manage your career as a business ?

It's the same rating for everyone here, in Europe in general, no discrimination whatsoever. If you're not a pro, it's either you're not good enough or not even trying to really fit in the business.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yun Hong Kyun (the guy in yellow in the vid) is titled "the best amateur player in Korea."

While Korean amateur players seem to view him as a role model, I've seen a lot of English comments on his other videos criticising him.

What do you think this guy's USATT rating would be?
In Korea, he's a class 1 player (1부), the highest achievable rating for amateurs.

USATT rating doesn't look too high.
I'm not sure how Korea grades or classifies the word "Amateur".

In my books, amateur is someone who didn't turn Pro. But Amateur can still be someone who comes from a Pro setup development system (training full time since young) but didn't make the cut to go pro (because not good enough or choose to opt out for a non TT career), but still plays on the side (hence called amateur and not pro).

Now, what I know is, there are "lots" of drop outs that end up coaching and won't play. Some will say, if I want to play, I will go attempt pro. But they rather coach and make an income than continue to play and burn cash.

So if the Korean side is what I think it is, I might not be wrong to say, what ever tournament that Yun won to be called the best in Korea, not all the top amateur was there to take part. His level looks too low to be a top "non pro" in Korea.

So again, it all depends on the prerequisite for the clarification of "amateur" status.
if his level is what NL says it is, that is really low and I am guessing it is the same range as NL's numbers.
Give you an example, a random team of 5 kids from Taiwan goes to US Open last year. and 2 of them beats 2450/2500 players. The other matches they played all have close games with 2400~2500 players.
In Taiwan, they are at best, 2nd string in the U19 age group, no where close to even making national team for U19 and there are many 1st string that can't make national team, and those players would easier be the "better amateur" or winners over the winner of the 2450/2500 players.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

USATT rating doesn't look too high.
I'm not sure how Korea grades or classifies the word "Amateur".

In my books, amateur is someone who didn't turn Pro. But Amateur can still be someone who comes from a Pro setup development system (training full time since young) but didn't make the cut to go pro (because not good enough or choose to opt out for a non TT career), but still plays on the side (hence called amateur and not pro).

Now, what I know is, there are "lots" of drop outs that end up coaching and won't play. Some will say, if I want to play, I will go attempt pro. But they rather coach and make an income than continue to play and burn cash.

So if the Korean side is what I think it is, I might not be wrong to say, what ever tournament that Yun won to be called the best in Korea, not all the top amateur was there to take part. His level looks too low to be a top "non pro" in Korea.

So again, it all depends on the prerequisite for the clarification of "amateur" status.
if his level is what NL says it is, that is really low and I am guessing it is the same range as NL's numbers.
Give you an example, a random team of 5 kids from Taiwan goes to US Open last year. and 2 of them beats 2450/2500 players. The other matches they played all have close games with 2400~2500 players.
In Taiwan, they are at best, 2nd string in the U19 age group, no where close to even making national team for U19 and there are many 1st string that can't make national team, and those players would easier be the "better amateur" or winners over the winner of the 2450/2500 players.

When I first arrive at this TTD forum site, I was bewildered with the general obsession with ratings. I was clueless abt this, coming from a country that has no such system. Tony, is Taiwan the same, i.e., without a rating system?.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

When I first arrive at this TTD forum site, I was bewildered with the general obsession with ratings. I was clueless abt this, coming from a country that has no such system. Tony, is Taiwan the same, i.e., without a rating system?.

in the amateur space, there is a rating system.
quite a good and improved system from where I first heard of it a decade ago.

Apparently some software engineer tt fans made it, self fund it, and self maintained it and over years and expansion, it is a pretty cool website https://tain.tw/
It has a "google map" of all places to play (doesn't not include pro places that are closed for public). tournament info, players info (that is on the rating system).

Rating is cool in the way, which motivates the players to improve and know where they feature against another player. Ie, you won't be silly and go challenge someone who is way too advance for you, so people use numbers/ratings to classify things for fairness and from there, have some fun with new opponents in tournaments or just random play.

in Pro and semi pro space, they don't use rating system, nor will they want to take part, since winning the amateur tournament has no aid in "school" progression.

However, some clubs that do take part in amateur tournament may get some semi pro players to represent them to win tournament, this could be family friends or a club where the semi pro was from. So some times semi pros will appear, but in general, the answer is no.

I have seem some tournaments where top amateurs do end up beating semi pros, like one that happened 2 weeks ago. But I think half the problem is that the semi pro was fooling around and thought there was no threat.
first game winning 11-3 and then loosing 1-3 after wards. Maybe that is also why that semi pro can't make it to pro level, since he can loose against non pro. That semi pro was a former U19 Taiwanese national player. I know he is a training partner now for high school players and maybe doesn't train much himself too.

 

[JJ Ng]

USATT rating doesn't look too high.
I'm not sure how Korea grades or classifies the word "Amateur".

In my books, amateur is someone who didn't turn Pro. But Amateur can still be someone who comes from a Pro setup development system (training full time since young) but didn't make the cut to go pro (because not good enough or choose to opt out for a non TT career), but still plays on the side (hence called amateur and not pro).

Now, what I know is, there are "lots" of drop outs that end up coaching and won't play. Some will say, if I want to play, I will go attempt pro. But they rather coach and make an income than continue to play and burn cash.

So if the Korean side is what I think it is, I might not be wrong to say, what ever tournament that Yun won to be called the best in Korea, not all the top amateur was there to take part. His level looks too low to be a top "non pro" in Korea.

So again, it all depends on the prerequisite for the clarification of "amateur" status.
if his level is what NL says it is, that is really low and I am guessing it is the same range as NL's numbers.
Give you an example, a random team of 5 kids from Taiwan goes to US Open last year. and 2 of them beats 2450/2500 players. The other matches they played all have close games with 2400~2500 players.
In Taiwan, they are at best, 2nd string in the U19 age group, no where close to even making national team for U19 and there are many 1st string that can't make national team, and those players would easier be the "better amateur" or winners over the winner of the 2450/2500 players.

I think in USATT rating, when I learned about it, means that for every 500 points, the lower rated player has no chance of beating with the higher rated player. if that happens, the higher rated player loses 50 points while the lower rated player gains 50 points.

Now if the lower rated player beats multiple players rated much higher in a single tournament then that lower rated player will get re-rated so it is more "fair" to those higher rated players he beat along the way.

I am not an expert in this subject.

As the rating gets higher, people are squished in more. Meaning a player who is 1500 would be much better than a 1000 level player. That gap is a bit smaller when you compare a 1500-level player to a 2000-level player. I believe by the time you get to 2500+, those players are all very good and there is a ceiling of how high you can go.

 

[Der_Echte]

USATT rating doesn't look too high.
I'm not sure how Korea grades or classifies the word "Amateur".

In my books, amateur is someone who didn't turn Pro. But Amateur can still be someone who comes from a Pro setup development system (training full time since young) but didn't make the cut to go pro (because not good enough or choose to opt out for a non TT career), but still plays on the side (hence called amateur and not pro).

Now, what I know is, there are "lots" of drop outs that end up coaching and won't play. Some will say, if I want to play, I will go attempt pro. But they rather coach and make an income than continue to play and burn cash.

So if the Korean side is what I think it is, I might not be wrong to say, what ever tournament that Yun won to be called the best in Korea, not all the top amateur was there to take part. His level looks too low to be a top "non pro" in Korea.

So again, it all depends on the prerequisite for the clarification of "amateur" status.
if his level is what NL says it is, that is really low and I am guessing it is the same range as NL's numbers.
Give you an example, a random team of 5 kids from Taiwan goes to US Open last year. and 2 of them beats 2450/2500 players. The other matches they played all have close games with 2400~2500 players.
In Taiwan, they are at best, 2nd string in the U19 age group, no where close to even making national team for U19 and there are many 1st string that can't make national team, and those players would easier be the "better amateur" or winners over the winner of the 2450/2500 players.

Hi Tony,

The Korean system defines Amateur as a player who was NOT in a school TT system. The amateur assn never lets school trained people play in City and Regional tourneys, only in a National tourney and only in the Pro Player division.

Schools select promising athletes in grade school, hire an ex-pro, give him a small budget, a general purpose room and several hours of time after classes... then that ex-pro smokes the living dogcrap outta the kids on fundamentals, one on one drill, and match play.

The decent HS kids are at 2500+... with the exceptional ones better than 2700. Oh Sang Uhn's son - Oh Joon Seoung is one of these and is prolly near 2800. A lot of those kids from Dae Gwang HS are pretty damn good.

Here is a vid of Yoon Hong Gyoon (haha i called him Yoon Hong Guhn - I got another FB friend that name !) playing vs Oh Joon Seoung.

Both Yoon Hong Gyoon and Hwang Jae Seoung are rated National Open Div 1 class... you gotta be mid 2300s rated to crack into the low end of that class. Some of those cats are 2400+. When they get that good, some of them start getting classified as Div ZERO, so they gotta give a 2 pt handicap to Div Open players.

The Div 0 players might reach 2500s, but it is damn near impossible to get better than that if you were not trained professionally as a kid.

Nobody in the amateur system gets better than that.

Yoon HG is a very experienced crafty player, he plays at upper 2300s on a bad day and mid 2400s+ on his normal good days. Yoon HG has been around Korean amateur TT a very long time.

Here is a pic I took with him in 2012 back when we were both sponsored by Nexy Korea... he was sponsored for skill, I was sponsored only because I spoke Korean and opened my big mouth on the internet.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Hi Tony,

The Korean system defines Amateur as a player who was NOT in a school TT system. The amateur assn never lets school trained people play in City and Regional tourneys, only in a National tourney and only in the Pro Player division.

Schools select promising athletes in grade school, hire an ex-pro, give him a small budget, a general purpose room and several hours of time after classes... then that ex-pro smokes the living dogcrap outta the kids on fundamentals, one on one drill, and match play.

The decent HS kids are at 2500+... with the exceptional ones better than 2700. Oh Sang Uhn's son - Oh Joon Seoung is one of these and is prolly near 2800. A lot of those kids from Dae Gwang HS are pretty damn good.

Here is a vid of Yoon Hong Guhn playing vs Oh Joon Seoung.

Both Yoon Hong Guhn and Hwang Jae Seoung are rated National Open Div 1 class... you gotta be mid 2300s rated to crack into the low end of that class. Some of those cats are 2400+. When they get that good, some of them start getting classified as Div ZERO, so they gotta give a 2 pt handicap to Div Open players.

The Div 0 players might reach 2500s, but it is damn near impossible to get better than that if you were not trained professionally as a kid.

Nobody in the amateur system gets better than that.

Yoon HG is a very experienced crafty player, he plays at upper 2300s on a bad day and mid 2400s+ on his normal good days. Yoon HG has been around Korean amateur TT a very long time.

Here is a pic I took with him in 2012 back when we were both sponsored by Nexy Korea... he was sponsored for skill, I was sponsored only because I spoke Korean and opened my big mouth on the internet.

View attachment 25680

There we go
coming from the Korean expert himself!

Interesting how Korea can separate school system players.
since school system would have drop outs too, that could feed into amateur system and deemed unfair.

Taiwan has a 6 + 3 + 3 schooling system, so each of the "change of schools", could of have dropped outs.
And of course any where in the school year, the player would say, I don't want to continue in the sport class and want to go to academic class.

 

[NextLevel]

For USATT, the zero probability of losing is roughly 250 points but obviously it is just a number. The distribution would look a bit different if it was spread over 500 pts. Rating is fun for people who like to measure. But other than seeding and sometimes to estimate an opponents skillset (which can be dangerous for an underrated opponent), it really shouldn't cross anyone's mind. In the end, the results are from matches played, not from skill level.