What is difference between Chinese and European loop

[Zrn]

Hi, what is the difference between European loop and Chinese loop?

 

[Lowday20298]

In the top level, the Chinese loop is initially slower and accelerates when the ball makes contact with the table while at the same time not bouncing very high. It has a much flatter trajectory and that also helps with avoiding the loop bouncing high. That's known as the kick effect, it accelerates and drops the ball.

European loop has high trajectory and keeps a set speed. Maybe it will accelerate a bit on contact with the table because of the spin, but because of the higher angle of approach, it'll keep a higher trajectory on the bounce as well.

Chinese loop technique is much more uniform with the brush keeping a constant speed from start to finish with a longer movement to add more power. The result is the move appearing strong and smooth, like Ma Long for example. You can do that because chinese rubbers have a lot of dwell time, because they are sticky.

European loop technique is much shorter and snappy. The much shorter dwell time of euro rubbers work better when you add all the power you can on a much shorter period of time, essentially snapping at the ball with an explosive move. Euro rubbers are softer with no tackiness and have a tensioned top sheet that acts like a trampoline.

 

[latej]

CNT loop and Wang Chuqin. Cheers.

Edit: I think nowadays the distinction is artificial. More are doing it, regardless whether Chinese, European, or...

 

[Lazer]

There is no such thing. The difference is the spin/speed relation.

What You call Chinese has higher a speed component. That’s why it has a lower trajectory. It still has a lot of spin that’s why it kicks more horizontal.

What You call European has a lower speed component, that’s why the trajectory is higher. It still kicks but since speed is lower it kicks more vertical.

Most Chinese tend to hit really hard with hard rubbers, where Europeans traditionally plays with softer rubbers with a lower speed ceiling.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[JJ Ng]

In the top level, the Chinese loop is initially slower and accelerates when the ball makes contact with the table while at the same time not bouncing very high. It has a much flatter trajectory and that also helps with avoiding the loop bouncing high. That's known as the kick effect, it accelerates and drops the ball.

European loop has high trajectory and keeps a set speed. Maybe it will accelerate a bit on contact with the table because of the spin, but because of the higher angle of approach, it'll keep a higher trajectory on the bounce as well.

Chinese loop technique is much more uniform with the brush keeping a constant speed from start to finish with a longer movement to add more power. The result is the move appearing strong and smooth, like Ma Long for example. You can do that because chinese rubbers have a lot of dwell time, because they are sticky.

European loop technique is much shorter and snappy. The much shorter dwell time of euro rubbers work better when you add all the power you can on a much shorter period of time, essentially snapping at the ball with an explosive move. Euro rubbers are softer with no tackiness and have a tensioned top sheet that acts like a trampoline.

I think what you are referring to, is not due to the technique but due to the rubber they use on their forehand.

DHS hurricane tends to grip the ball and allows the ball to kick once it lands on the opponent's table. Butterfly and ESN rubbers are also very spinny but the arc is higher and the kick is a bit higher.

Look at Fan Zhengong practicing. There are many many videos of him practicing forehand loop. His arm is straight and behind his back. Then he snaps at the point of ball contact.

Look at Timo Boll practicing. There are a lot of videos of him doing forehand loop. His arm is bent at the beginning of the stroke already. He still snaps his arm and wrist at the point of contact to generate a lot of spin. But they just seem to rely on different muscle groups.

I grew up with a Chinese coach. What I have learned is, the first loop off opponent's back spin coming toward me, will be a Chinese style loop. Then after that, I keep my elbow high and adopt an European style loop because I am close to the table and my reaction time is not that fast. That's the only I can play a rally successfully. But against players my level, my first Chinese style loop usually finishes the point. However, against players above me, I will need a few more stroke to finish the point.

 

[Lowday20298]

I think what you are referring to, is not due to the technique but due to the rubber they use on their forehand.

DHS hurricane tends to grip the ball and allows the ball to kick once it lands on the opponent's table. Butterfly and ESN rubbers are also very spinny but the arc is higher and the kick is a bit higher.

Look at Fan Zhengong practicing. There are many many videos of him practicing forehand loop. His arm is straight and behind his back. Then he snaps at the point of ball contact.

Look at Timo Boll practicing. There are a lot of videos of him doing forehand loop. His arm is bent at the beginning of the stroke already. He still snaps his arm and wrist at the point of contact to generate a lot of spin. But they just seem to rely on different muscle groups.

I grew up with a Chinese coach. What I have learned is, the first loop off opponent's back spin coming toward me, will be a Chinese style loop. Then after that, I keep my elbow high and adopt an European style loop because I am close to the table and my reaction time is not that fast. That's the only I can play a rally successfully. But against players my level, my first Chinese style loop usually finishes the point. However, against players above me, I will need a few more stroke to finish the point.

All the pros snap, the difference is how they carry the ball. China snaps early and carries the ball with a big motion throughout the entire stroke. Euro snaps and ejects the ball at the contact point with a sharp brush, essensially going through the ball.

The kick is present with chinese rubbers because they drop the ball, for example the 09c has a very high throw, that's why they are called hybrids, high tension and high throw with tackiness. On the other hand, Hurricane 3 blue has a medium throw, that causes a flat trajectory and the spin pulls the ball even lower.

There's a massive difference between china and euro technique, you can't use the technique of Tenergy on Hurricane and vice versa. Well you can... But the results are either unstable or sub optimal.

 

[JJ Ng]

All the pros snap, the difference is how they carry the ball. China snaps early and carries the ball with a big motion throughout the entire stroke. Euro snaps and ejects the ball at the contact point with a sharp brush, essensially going through the ball.

The kick is present with chinese rubbers because they drop the ball, for example the 09c has a very high throw, that's why they are called hybrids, high tension and high throw with tackiness. On the other hand, Hurricane 3 blue has a medium throw, that causes a flat trajectory and the spin pulls the ball even lower.

There's a massive difference between china and euro technique, you can't use the technique of Tenergy on Hurricane and vice versa. Well you can... But the results are either unstable or sub optimal.

We basically agree.

Now I am not sure if you really cannot perform Euro loop with Hurricane. I do that all the time after I start a rally. However, it is harder to finish the point. But pro's might be able to finish the points easier.

 

[Lazer]

We basically agree.

Now I am not sure if you really cannot perform Euro loop with Hurricane. I do that all the time after I start a rally. However, it is harder to finish the point. But pro's might be able to finish the points easier.

Yes I agree with You can, if you mean high trajectory and lots of spin. Not too difficult, just need a good brushing action. But generally a faster ball is more lethal…
Hurricane works excellent for both types of strokes.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[JJ Ng]

Yes I agree with You can, if you mean high trajectory and lots of spin. Not too difficult, just need a good brushing action. But generally a faster ball is more lethal…
Hurricane works excellent for both types of strokes.

Cheers
L-zr

Sometimes I get tempted to try Tenergy 05 on my forehand but honestly, my strokes are so used to Hurricane, that switch has always been a mistake!

I like how I am able to loop drive a heavy back spin with Hurricane. After that, yeah, I will try to keep the rally going with more of a Euro loop style. But since I played with penhold growing up, I am expected to finish that point with the initial heavy loop.

 

[blahness]

Not much difference tbh, if you watch Alexis Lebrun or Truls Moregardh they too has a massive straight arm FH.

I think the classic "Euro loop" is really a suboptimal Timo Boll loop which not a lot of top Europeans adopt anyway.

 

[Lazer]

Sometimes I get tempted to try Tenergy 05 on my forehand but honestly, my strokes are so used to Hurricane, that switch has always been a mistake!

I like how I am able to loop drive a heavy back spin with Hurricane. After that, yeah, I will try to keep the rally going with more of a Euro loop style. But since I played with penhold growing up, I am expected to finish that point with the initial heavy loop.

Hurricane has a weakness from position 3, and Tenergy in the short game. I don’t spend much time at position 3 but do quite a lot of short game…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Dominikk85]

I think in short it is
Chinese:
-long swing
-straight arm
-power oriented

European:
-compact swing
-bent arm
-spin over power

However I think with the younger generation it is converging together a little. Younger guys like jorgic tend to be more semi straight (120 degrees) rather than fully bent, some like moreghard and Qiu are even more towards fully straight. And some younger chinese like Lin shidong also tend to be more semi straight than fully straight.

Even Timo Boll who is famous for his slow loop mentioned that with the modern ball he changed slightly towards more speed and less spin.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Classical / text-book chinese forehand loop at its best.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Euro style FH at its best.

 

[Choosikick]

Classical / text-book chinese forehand loop at its best.

These shots reminded me of Zhang Jike game against Yoo Se Hyuk

 

[Choosikick]

And Timo Boll's match at the same tournament with Joo Se Huyk. The difference between the two techniques in these two matches is obvious.

But everything flows and changes, and now the forehand topspin techniques of young Chinese and European players are much closer to each other than they were before.

 

[SFF_lib]

And Timo Boll's match at the same tournament with Joo Se Huyk. The difference between the two techniques in these two matches is obvious.

But everything flows and changes, and now the forehand topspin techniques of young Chinese and European players are much closer to each other than they were before.

Yes agree. Just look at FZD, a typical representative of the younger Chinese generation. His stroke is very short and punchy, allowing for swift FH-BH switch.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Could there be a third in-btw style?

An Non-Chinese Asian style?

 

[brokenball]

Hi, what is the difference between European loop and Chinese loop?

It is more style than results.

In the top level, the Chinese loop is initially slower

When does it speed up?

and accelerates when the ball makes contact with the table

This happens when one hits a slow spinny ball. This contradicts a lot of the other posts.

while at the same time not bouncing very high.

This is true with spinny balls due to the Magnus effect.

It has a much flatter trajectory and that also helps with avoiding the loop bouncing high. That's known as the kick effect, it accelerates and drops the ball.

Why can't anyone hit low trajectory balls? Why is it specific to just one kind of stroke?

There is no such thing. The difference is the spin/speed relation.
[/quote[
Is there a difference?

What You call Chinese has higher a speed component. That’s why it has a lower trajectory. It still has a lot of spin that’s why it kicks more horizontal.

I agree that high speed ball better have a lower trajectory or it won't land. I also agree that that balls with a lot of spin will kick out low after the bounce.
So, what is the spin to speed ratio for this to occur?

DHS hurricane tends to grip the ball and allows the ball to kick once it lands on the opponent's table. Butterfly and ESN rubbers are also very spinny but the arc is higher and the kick is a bit higher.

Most rubber will grip almost instantly within a few microseconds. I can make the ball kick out with T05, Rakza 7 or H3 Neo..
Why are the arcs higher? I don't like high arcs because they bounce high too. High arcs are a mistake and asking for a counter hit. Idealy the ball crosses the net as low as possible so it doesn't bounce high.

All the pros snap, the difference is how they carry the ball.

Carry the ball? You are speaking of dwell time again. How long do they carry the ball? We want to know.

The trajectory is determined by the impulse and where the impulse is applied to the ball. The same impulse can be made with either stroke and with most decent rubbers. Sure, there are some rubbers that are faster than others, but rarely can you make use of that extra speed unless you have a line of sight shot. If the ball is low, you need to trade speed for spin so you must brush the ball more. It doesn't make any difference how you achieve this as long as it is achieved.