What makes more difference - rubbers or blades

[merlin el mago]

I think Timo Boll felt that D09c could be used by a beginner. He is on the record saying this. What kind of blade do you think he had in mind that beginner should use since according to you, the rubber has a blade power transfer requirement? What is a top blade?

A top blade it's the best suited for your playing style, no matter the price, the weight, the brand, the plies number, with or without fibers, etc.

 

[NextLevel]

My coach used to be a player on the national team. He said that to build up your skill level, you need to gather a bit of everything — little by little, to become a pro.
He said that the blade and the rubber are equally important.
If I play in the style of Chinese players who use rubbers like Dignics 09C and Hurricane 3, I have to use carbon blades such as the Viscaria. I’ve tried those rubbers on an all-wood blade and felt that I couldn’t generate enough power on the ball.
However, when I put Tenergy rubbers on an all-wood blade, I found that the ball was much easier to control and produced a lot more spin.

When you are trying to be the very best, every detail has some contribution. But when we keep the same rubber and change blades or keep the same blade and change rubbers, the results are not 50-50. Pros all use top rubbers or boost them to stay competitive. This usually requires the most modern rubbers or rubbers evolved to play the modern game with the right grippy/tacky topsheet with modern pimple configurations and stretched on decently thick aponge. For blades however, some players are still using blades based on ideas from the 1990s or even earlier. For anyone who has used a lot of equipment, this question is not political or subjective. You can still play high level TT with something like a Mazunov or to a lesser degree a Korbel with Dignics and Hurricane. If you don't heavily boost or speed glue a MarK V or Mercury, your game will be nonsense. And I know because even with my technical limitations I have tried these things. I played at a decent level with old blades for a long time like Korbels or Yasaka Extras. But I had to use a rubber made in 2008 or later and in some cases boosted.

 

[NextLevel]

A top blade it's the best suited for your playing style, no matter the price, the weight, the brand, the plies number, with or without fibers, etc.

Thanks for your definition of a top blade - I would like to hear his.

 

[merlin el mago]

Why can be different NextLevel?

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Honestly, from most of my peers and coaches, I would have to say the blade. Any rubber can be good if you use it right (as long as it isn't like unbranded plastic lol). But for blades, you have to be more specific about it. Carbon or all wood? Hardwood or softwood?

Blades like the Viscaria and the Victas Koji blade are VASTLY different from one another, and one with another playing style cannot use the other well. However, even between extremely different rubbers, i.e. Skyline TG3 and Bryce Highspeed, can be used the same way and yield pretty similar results.

Look at Ryu Seung Min's forehand stroke, very big and very swingy, unlike what tensor players do (compact and quick stroke). RSM's forehand stroke looks like he uses Hurricane, but it really isn't the case.

Another example is Kreanga, where his backhand is very big, and lo and behold, he currently uses Dignics 64.

Overall, the blades contribute a lot more to the style of the player much more than the rubbers, and therefore I'd say blades are more important. Rubbers are simply the aid for a player's style, while the blade is the foundation.

Please tell me if I am wrong, and try to contradict me, I would love to learn something new!

 

[NextLevel]

Honestly, from most of my peers and coaches, I would have to say the blade. Any rubber can be good if you use it right (as long as it isn't like unbranded plastic lol). But for blades, you have to be more specific about it. Carbon or all wood? Hardwood or softwood?

Blades like the Viscaria and the Victas Koji blade are VASTLY different from one another, and one with another playing style cannot use the other well. However, even between extremely different rubbers, i.e. Skyline TG3 and Bryce Highspeed, can be used the same way and yield pretty similar results.

Look at Ryu Seung Min's forehand stroke, very big and very swingy, unlike what tensor players do (compact and quick stroke). RSM's forehand stroke looks like he uses Hurricane, but it really isn't the case.

Another example is Kreanga, where his backhand is very big, and lo and behold, he currently uses Dignics 64.

Overall, the blades contribute a lot more to the style of the player much more than the rubbers, and therefore I'd say blades are more important. Rubbers are simply the aid for a player's style, while the blade is the foundation.

Please tell me if I am wrong, and try to contradict me, I would love to learn something new!

Like some have pointed out, this is very much a test of playing level. While in modern times, pros do use faster blades to deal with the plastic ball and rubbers designed to spin more (and therefore usually the rubbers have more dwell time and need faster blades to release the ball better), the rotation/spin in the game is inordinately a result of the rubbers. And without the rotation, all the other stuff (blade speed etc.) doesn't even matter.

While a slower blade does affect how the pros hit the ball and is very important when they are playing each other because speed is at a premium, that they can attempt is largely determined by the rubbers first and foremost. The size of the stroke with which they attempt it often determined by the blade but with modern rubbers it isn't always so simple.

Watch this video and see whether it affects your opinion - while they changed both together, you get to see how the pro was affected and you can judge whether the basic racket is determined primary by speed or rubber quality. What I will tell you is that if you took his rubbers and put them on the worst setup's blade, he would perform better than if you took the blade and put the worst setup rubbers on them.

 

[Metaxa]

It's great here! I think the rubber is just as important as the blade.

I started playing table tennis in the mid-1970s. A Paul Day blade with Srivers on it. Who remembers this left-handed top player!

Over the years, I've tried just about everything from 5-ply wood, single-ply wood, homemade rackets, inner carbon, outer carbon. There are, of course, quite a few differences between all these types, but if you put Sriver rubber on all these blades, any table would be easy to play on for the vast majority of players. You have to play with something that suits your own playing style.

But... if I were to put a rubber such as Dignics, Tenergy or something completely different such as short pimples, long pimples or Anti on all these different blades, it could be a completely different story and performance could suffer greatly. The difference with these rubbers would be immense. (And that's why blades are also very important, because I could (for example) perfectly put an Anti on a Paul Day or outer-carbon).

A somewhat experienced player can play with many different blades and rubbers and it won't make much difference to him/her. Just look at Sabine... or all the players who use two completely different rubbers, such as Gionis.

 

[NextLevel]

Why can be different NextLevel?

Because people are different - what I consider a good blade may not be the same as what you do. Sometimes, what I consider a top blade today is not the same as what I considered it yesterday lol.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Another interesting anecdote from the professional level: before Paris 2024, Zeng Jian did an interview where she mentioned her main and backup rackets had two completely different blades. You can see in the image that the blades were W968 and LGY ALC -- not just different models, but completely different constructions (though I doubt she cares if she's even paying attention to inner vs. outer carbon, etc.). The main thing she liked about both of them is the feeling, and she clearly doesn't mind that (according to her own statement) one is more powerful than the other.

Two different bats for Singapore table tennis player Zeng Jian

Singapore’s Paris 2024 Olympians share more about the essentials that help them perform at their best. Read more at straitstimes.com. Read more at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

Zeng is a bit of an outlier, but this nicely illustrates how much more subjective blades are compared to rubbers even at the pro level. The right blade does make a real difference if it gives you extra confidence or a good feeling, and it's easy to find pro players who are picky/superstitious about their blades. But rubbers are always held to the highest possible standard of consistency and performance.

 

[SorryForTheEdge]

I tried mixing different blades with different rubbers and each combination offers a completely different playstyle.
D09c + Stradivarius = Fast velocity medium-high arc setup for powerful topspins
D09c + Sweden Extra = Less velocity but more RPM because of more dwell time, the arc is also higher.

Now with rubbers
MX-P 50 + Stradivarius = Dangerous backhand, easy to deflect opponent's attacks by just holding the racket. Plays like a bullet
729 FX super soft + Stradivarius = Paintbrush with little to no aggression. Requires more manual effort just to send the ball over the net. Impossible to attack same way as with MX-P unless you're Kreanga on steroids

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Like some have pointed out, this is very much a test of playing level. While in modern times, pros do use faster blades to deal with the plastic ball and rubbers designed to spin more (and therefore usually the rubbers have more dwell time and need faster blades to release the ball better), the rotation/spin in the game is inordinately a result of the rubbers. And without the rotation, all the other stuff (blade speed etc.) doesn't even matter.

While a slower blade does affect how the pros hit the ball and is very important when they are playing each other because speed is at a premium, that they can attempt is largely determined by the rubbers first and foremost. The size of the stroke with which they attempt it often determined by the blade but with modern rubbers it isn't always so simple.

Watch this video and see whether it affects your opinion - while they changed both together, you get to see how the pro was affected and you can judge whether the basic racket is determined primary by speed or rubber quality. What I will tell you is that if you took his rubbers and put them on the worst setup's blade, he would perform better than if you took the blade and put the worst setup rubbers on them.

I tried mixing different blades with different rubbers and each combination offers a completely different playstyle.
D09c + Stradivarius = Fast velocity medium-high arc setup for powerful topspins
D09c + Sweden Extra = Less velocity but more RPM because of more dwell time, the arc is also higher.

Now with rubbers
MX-P 50 + Stradivarius = Dangerous backhand, easy to deflect opponent's attacks by just holding the racket. Plays like a bullet
729 FX super soft + Stradivarius = Paintbrush with little to no aggression. Requires more manual effort just to send the ball over the net. Impossible to attack same way as with MX-P unless you're Kreanga on steroids

Well, looks like I stand corrected! The rubbers to an extent are more important than the blades! However, the blades do have a longer lifespan so you have to pick a better blade first, then you can experiment with the rubbers. And I guess the blade also gives most of the feeling to the game, so I can see why that makes people say blades are more important.

As for @SorryForTheEdge, I feel like your experiment is a LITTLE flawed. You picked an offensive blade followed by a less offensive blade, but then for the rubbers you picked an offensive rubber then a very slow defensive/allround rubber.

That might affect your grading a bit, but the general idea is still there luckily.

As of right now, they are around equally as important as each other, wherein they control different parts of the game. The rubbers focuses on spin and speed, while the blades focus on control and feeling. Is this good, or do you guys have more evidence to destroy me 😂

 

[NextLevel]

Well, looks like I stand corrected! The rubbers to an extent are more important than the blades! However, the blades do have a longer lifespan so you have to pick a better blade first, then you can experiment with the rubbers. And I guess the blade also gives most of the feeling to the game, so I can see why that makes people say blades are more important.

As for @SorryForTheEdge, I feel like your experiment is a LITTLE flawed. You picked an offensive blade followed by a less offensive blade, but then for the rubbers you picked an offensive rubber then a very slow defensive/allround rubber.

That might affect your grading a bit, but the general idea is still there luckily.

As of right now, they are around equally as important as each other, wherein they control different parts of the game. The rubbers focuses on spin and speed, while the blades focus on control and feeling. Is this good, or do you guys have more evidence to destroy me 😂

For any style, both are important. The point though is that for modern table tennis, spin is more important than control/feeling though everyone wants the best of both.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

For any style, both are important. The point though is that for modern table tennis, spin is more important than control/feeling though everyone wants the best of both.

I guess. But the most modern ball, 40+ and plastic, reduces the amount of total spin on the ball, hence making the game more speed based. This is a reason why penhold fell off, since penhold has more feeling than shakehand, and the game moved away from feeling and is now closer to power.

 

[NextLevel]

I guess. But the most modern ball, 40+ and plastic, reduces the amount of total spin on the ball, hence making the game more speed based. This is a reason why penhold fell off, since penhold has more feeling than shakehand, and the game moved away from feeling and is now closer to power.

The spin is used to increase the speed and consistency of powerful shots, not to just win points just on spin. The faster blades become useless in the absence of spinny rubbers with sponge to increase dwell on powerful shots. Hardbat often uses slower and flexible blades for this reason.

All of this is pretty basic if you play at a certain level.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

The spin is used to increase the speed and consistency of powerful shots, not to just win points just on spin. The faster blades become useless in the absence of spinny rubbers with sponge to increase dwell on powerful shots. Hardbat often uses slower and flexible blades for this reason.

Yep, of course I know about the spin increasing both max speed and consistency. But the current ball limits the spin on shots, because of the size and material changes. Of course, tt is still a very spin based game, but in recent times flat hitting has become more apparent. Compare the modern game to that of the 1990's and early 2000's.

All of this is pretty basic if you play at a certain level.

Damn whats this supposed to mean 😭

 

[NextLevel]

Another interesting anecdote from the professional level: before Paris 2024, Zeng Jian did an interview where she mentioned her main and backup rackets had two completely different blades. You can see in the image that the blades were W968 and LGY ALC -- not just different models, but completely different constructions (though I doubt she cares if she's even paying attention to inner vs. outer carbon, etc.). The main thing she liked about both of them is the feeling, and she clearly doesn't mind that (according to her own statement) one is more powerful than the other.

Two different bats for Singapore table tennis player Zeng Jian

Singapore’s Paris 2024 Olympians share more about the essentials that help them perform at their best. Read more at straitstimes.com. Read more at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

Zeng is a bit of an outlier, but this nicely illustrates how much more subjective blades are compared to rubbers even at the pro level. The right blade does make a real difference if it gives you extra confidence or a good feeling, and it's easy to find pro players who are picky/superstitious about their blades. But rubbers are always held to the highest possible standard of consistency and performance.

Blades as products don't have the broad consistency of rubbers either, mostly because wood is a living thing. For all we know, one pr both of those blades could be outliers relative to their expected design specs.

 

[NextLevel]

Yep, of course I know about the spin increasing both max speed and consistency. But the current ball limits the spin on shots, because of the size and material changes. Of course, tt is still a very spin based game, but in recent times flat hitting has become more apparent. Compare the modern game to that of the 1990's and early 2000's.

Damn whats this supposed to mean 😭

That you continue to post things that show you don't understand what you are watching. Driving the ball is not flat hitting. Go watch Hugo with pongfinity and see the shot he played to maximize spin measurements.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

That you continue to post things that show you don't understand what you are watching. Driving the ball is not flat hitting. Go watch Hugo with pongfinity and see the shot he played to maximize spin measurements.

I would continue to post things about my opinion, like that when I said flat hitting has become more apparent I don't mean that every shot is flat hitting, but at this point there I have already learned what I needed to learn.

Thank you, @NextLevel for the information!

 

[NextLevel]

I would continue to post things about my opinion, like that when I said flat hitting has become more apparent I don't mean that every shot is flat hitting, but at this point there I have already learned what I needed to learn.

Thank you, @NextLevel for the information!

My apologies maybe I should have asked you which stars are flat hitting more rather than assuming I know what you meant. But there is a common misconception that when a player is hitting the ball fad through the table, they are spinning the ball less than when they loop backspin slowly. While there is a sense in which the slow ball.is spinnirr (more rotation relativr to forward speed), the rotation on loop.drives is generally higher even if the spin doesn't feel as heavy relative to the forward motion because the arc isn't as pronounced.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

My apologies maybe I should have asked you which stars are flat hitting more rather than assuming I know what you meant. But there is a common misconception that when a player is hitting the ball fad through the table, they are spinning the ball less than when they loop backspin slowly. While there is a sense in which the slow ball.is spinnirr (more rotation relativr to forward speed), the rotation on loop.drives is generally higher even if the spin doesn't feel as heavy relative to the forward motion because the arc isn't as pronounced.

Yep, good points allround. The ball does spin pretty equalliy against the slow backspin and for far range attacks. But, I was really talking about the ball change, and how that affects the spin of the game. I've seen many comments that after a decade long break, they come back to a "spinless game". Of course this isn't true, but that does mean the current game is more power focused than before.